New McG said: smkspy said: 4s go all the way up 370 in champ rewards, at this pace, I'd have to set my 271 Jean grey as my sole 4 star BH probably for remainder of the game's life to get her that high. This isn't even to mention the 14 other vaulted 4 champs stuck below 280. Those guys are stuck and until devs give up this fantasy that th 4 tier is the same as it was when hulkbuster was introduced, all those characters will wallow away under a now useless champ system. People seem to have this illusion that under the old system, every 4* would eventually get champed and end up at 370. As of this moment, that would mean 5000 4* covers needed AFTER already champing every 4*, which is an additional 650 covers, assuming perfect distribution and no waste. (And not including Dino or Howard.) At a rate of two more 4* added every 6 weeks (give or take some here and there) that means they're adding 226 extra 4* covers to that total every 6 weeks, or roughly 38 a week to "keep up". So, what's more likely scenario for working toward higher end champion levels: trying to keep up to that rate of covers (around 5 a day) over the long term, or building characters via a focused pool of LT draws at any given time, allowing 12 characters to grow 4 times faster, and providing bonus heroes as a supplement to also add levels to whatever character you may choose over time?
smkspy said: 4s go all the way up 370 in champ rewards, at this pace, I'd have to set my 271 Jean grey as my sole 4 star BH probably for remainder of the game's life to get her that high. This isn't even to mention the 14 other vaulted 4 champs stuck below 280. Those guys are stuck and until devs give up this fantasy that th 4 tier is the same as it was when hulkbuster was introduced, all those characters will wallow away under a now useless champ system.
Wumpushunter said: Oh, also because of vaulting i have missed numerous burritos, clashes and 4 star essentials content.
Jaedenkaal said: Wumpushunter said: Oh, also because of vaulting i have missed numerous burritos, clashes and 4 star essentials content. Your (and anyone's) chances of having pulled all (or any) of those 4*s you need for 4* essentials were minuscule at best, and you would NOT have been prepared for crashes any faster.
broll said: It's a lot easier in the old system to get 1 of every character than it is now for someone who started after vaulting.
Jaedenkaal said: broll said: It's a lot easier in the old system to get 1 of every character than it is now for someone who started after vaulting. I simply don't buy this argument. It was extremely likely for someone to go months and months (certainly longer than vaulting has been implemented so far) without seeing a 4* cover for a some character or another.
broll said: I started playing 1.5 years ago and got to a point where I had every 4* within the first 6-8 months. It's possible I was an outlyer but I don't think so. RNG is RNG there will be odd cases, but even more than that in the old system they would at least be featured and available from progression/placement/vaults much more frequently then they are now. Also even if that was the case BH fixes that problem. I don't think anyone is suggesting we go back to the old system, just that we don't like the significant new problems the 'fix' created.Also you state it was possible to go 'longer than vaulting has been implemented so far' without seeing a particular 4* character. In that time with vaulting I haven't seen a cover for:CarnageDraxGhost RiderIceman (excluding one i bought from H4H)Invisable WomanJean GreyKingpinMiles MoralesMr. FantasticNick FurySpider-GwenThe PunisherThor (excluding one i bought from H4H)Venom (not an agent)War MachineWinter SoldierSo while in the old system there might be 1 character i didn't see in those months, in this system there were 16/52 (30%). BH would not be able to make up that much difference. I think I've seen a total of 6 or 7 4* BHs since launch.
It was easier to get all the characters in the 3* tier under the old system, if by nothing else than just by virtue of the pool of 3*s being less diluted when it came to rewards in PvE... 3*s were a progression reward and it didn't take long to go through all of em...
We have more special event stuff that delays cycling through all the 3*s as progression rewards, and they've kept diluting the pool, despite only letting a subset of them be drawn from the common tokens now... I'm not even sure if they ARE cycling through all the 3*s as PvE progression rewards anymore.
Theres clearly more being considered here than just whats the best way to cover 4*s and provide a fun user experience or else we would have seen the option given to us... I strongly believe that HP sales correlating to HfH store purchases is going to give D3/Demi far more meaningful feedback, at least in terms of what they're concerned about, so all this chatter is moot.
Fightmastermpq said: aa25 said: Token dilution is definitely a problem. But the current "vaulting" method is not the solution. It just moves the problem that used to be with all 4* over to the vintage 4*. You can't say that. You aren't comprehending what dilution really is. If there are 50 4*s and you pull 50 tokens and get 1 of each that's not helpful. That's dilution - the pool is too diluted for you to make meaningful progress on them all. D3 isn't in the habit of handing out free tokens (well, not more than the 5% BH we got anyway), so those 50 pulls that you got aren't going to change. So ANYTHING you do to use those same 50 pulls to make meaningful progress on any character will necessarily prevent you from making meaningful progress on some other character or group of characters. Period. That's just math. aa25 said: People who are transitioning when the vault kicked in suffer the most, many of them essentially have their progress set back tremendously if not have to start the transition process all over again. No. They aren't starting the process over again because the process they followed before is gone, and the process they follow now is very different. The process they follow now takes less than 1/4 the time it did before. That means if you were less than 3/4 done with a character (fewer than 10 covers) you will actually max cover a character in tokens now faster than you would have finished off those last 4+ covers under the old system.
aa25 said: Token dilution is definitely a problem. But the current "vaulting" method is not the solution. It just moves the problem that used to be with all 4* over to the vintage 4*.
aa25 said: People who are transitioning when the vault kicked in suffer the most, many of them essentially have their progress set back tremendously if not have to start the transition process all over again.
Jaedenkaal said: You had the advantage at that time of pulling from a pool of only ~30 4*s. Your odds were much better then. The same is true regarding availability in events; there were simply many fewer 4*s so they could cycle through events nearly twice as fast. Both of these issues have to do with the total number of 4*s then and now, which has nothing to do with vaulting. I was doing -very- poorly with collecting 4*s myself until they were added to PVE progression rewards at SCL 7, which I believe was (permanently) implemented sometime last summer.Also, the pedant in me can't help but point out that Spider-Gwen was available as a progression reward in PVE since vaulting, so if you've missed her, that's on you.
MissChinch said: The pool of 4*s may have been around 30, but CP and LTs were at least twice as scarce then... CP and LT resources have been added in proportionally larger amounts than the pool of the 4*s has grown, if they continued with that all 4* heroes get strictly easier to obtain across the board without vaulting even coming into play.
Jaedenkaal said:Also, the pedant in me can't help but point out that Spider-Gwen was available as a progression reward in PVE since vaulting, so if you've missed her, that's on you.
Wumpushunter said: if I am not mistaken the 4 star essentials for her was a vaulted character, also 4 star for progression is on 7 and 8 only.
tiomono said: SpringSoldier said: Friendly reminder: with or without vaulting, some covers will still go to waste. In fact, an undiluted vault/store offers better chances of champing a character quickly and not losing covers anymore. I still a want a token where I can get all the vaulted 4*, but it has nothing to do with wasted covers, ISO and so on. All the other issues will remain: champs will rarely reach max progression, some characters will be better than others etc. Has someone actually done the math on this? It may be confirmation bias on my part but it feels like I have thrown away far more covers since vaulting started. The only reason I see for that is that there are only 36 possible cover variations every time I pull a 4 from a token.So the closer I get to having several covered the more waste I have because of a higher percentage of my characters being at 5 on one or more covers.And yes under the old system I would still have wasted covers but 150 possible covers as opposed to 36 seems pretty clear cut which one will suck more if rng is not kind to you.
SpringSoldier said: Friendly reminder: with or without vaulting, some covers will still go to waste. In fact, an undiluted vault/store offers better chances of champing a character quickly and not losing covers anymore. I still a want a token where I can get all the vaulted 4*, but it has nothing to do with wasted covers, ISO and so on. All the other issues will remain: champs will rarely reach max progression, some characters will be better than others etc.