*** Sentry (Dark Avengers) ***

over_clocked

Progression rewards can always be put higher or lower, they are not an issue to adjust.
Sentry nerfs the roster diversity at the top level and inflates scores. Some benefit from it but most players, 2* rosters, that is, don't benefit from Sentry-inflated scores at all even if they never have to fight Sentry themselves. They simply get pushed out of the cover range, out of decent 700 scores, and out of alliance t100 rankings.
Inflated scores are more of an issue than a greater good I feel. Only stronger rosters with at least 3-5 maxed 3*s should be able to achieve top 1100 and 1300 progression rewards (which, mind you, can be adjusted). Remember when Thor/Hood or GSBW/Spidey could get to 1100 without much issue despite the Sentry bomb of that time, slower Patchneto teams? Pepperidge farm remembers.

GuntherBlobel

sms4002 wrote:

This is true. OP, you say you never hop or use sentry. If you did you would understand. using sentry and full boosts you can win matches in 30 seconds, by making 2 matches. This is the reason it is completely broken. It makes it p2w (as the boosts costs hero points). If sentry is nerfed you can't win matches in 30 seconds anymore and hops become dangerous again. You can't just boost in for a free win, you can have a lot that can go wrong and in the time it takes to win you can be hit again. Sentry is game breaking and needs his nerf sooner than later.

I said I rarely hop and I rarely use Sentry. When I do hop I prefer to use Patch/Hulk. With full boosts, it takes one green match to win. If the board is lousy and there are no greens; Hulk will fix that. Its pretty reliable and it only costs one health pack per win. So, I know what its like to play that game. I agree, it is P2W. (You may think I'm crazy for not using Sentry/Hood, but maybe thats why all you see right now is Sentry/Hood. Players generally prefer the optimal team over all other viable alternatives. That won't change post-Sentry. So I don't expect to ever see diversity in the high level game.)

I fully expect the game to continue to be P2W and the shield-hopping game to continue to lack imagination/fun. What I do like about Sentry, at least, is that people don't use him to climb, so I can forget that he exists until 700 pts or so. If there must be a top-dog, Sentry is a good choice. If X-Force becomes the top dog, however, I expect to get face him constantly. Kinda like how "Children of the Atom" was for me.

GuntherBlobel

locked wrote:

Progression rewards can always be put higher or lower, they are not an issue to adjust.
Sentry nerfs the roster diversity at the top level and inflates scores. Some benefit from it but most players, 2* rosters, that is, don't benefit from Sentry-inflated scores at all even if they never have to fight Sentry themselves. They simply get pushed out of the cover range, out of decent 700 scores, and out of alliance t100 rankings.
Inflated scores are more of an issue than a greater good I feel. Only stronger rosters with at least 3-5 maxed 3*s should be able to achieve top 1100 and 1300 progression rewards (which, mind you, can be adjusted). Remember when Thor/Hood or GSBW/Spidey could get to 1100 without much issue despite the Sentry bomb of that time, slower Patchneto teams? Pepperidge farm remembers.

Agreed. Technically, the Progression rewards are their own issue, but I don't see the devs adjusting them. And I get that Sentry makes the game frustrating for T5 players. I do. But's its probably been a good thing for the T25 group (and maybe a bad thing for the T150 group).

Before Sentry, I was a T5 player, but I even with fully covered featured characters, I never made it to 1100 (so what's the point anyway). At first, I didn't like being locked out of the T5 rankings, but with these higher scores I've learned to stop worrying and love the Sentry.

I would be very happy it if Sentry got his due nerf and the devs took a hard look at Progression awards. That would be win-win.

Unknown

Well, with this current PVP, the only thing to do is Sentry bomb, so D3 has kind of taken this decision out of our hands, haven't they?

Eddiemon

GuntherBlobel wrote:

So again, my question is, why does it matter if you only fight Sentry/Hood/Daken beyond this point? How would removing/nerfing Sentry fix the high level game? Won't it always boil down to a speed game that lacks diversity? (I'm looking at you Hulk/Patch).

It doesn't need to lack diversity. The problem with Sentry is that he is a very fast killer, excellent in defense and has high health. He doesn't have a weakness. The next best character, X-Force takes two to three times as long to dispose of a team if he gets a good board, and it gets even worse for X-Force when you include boosts.

Hulk/Patch may be quick on offense, but on defense they are just a speed bump. ALthough teh best team to beat Hulk/Patch isn't Hulk/Patch so now people are putting at least a second team composition out there. You'll never get anywhere close to perfect diversity, but at least if teams have exploitable weaknesses then you should see a mix of teams exploiting each others weaknesses.

Here's a counter point to the Sentry nerf. When Sentry is nerfed, I think I will miss the old days of inflated scores, because I benefit from the 50 pt matches even when I am not shield hopping. The more the T5 gets inflated, the easier it is for me to hit 800 pts without shielding. If I do choose to shield hop, I can make it to the 1100 pt reward pretty easily. This used to be fairly hard for me and not worth the HP. Thank you Sentry-bombers and your 50 pt matches. I don't even feel sorry for sniping, because I'm sure you have re-shielded by now.

Why? What actually changes? Instead of having Sentry killing everything in 4 turns you now take 15 turns to win your match. And after your three matches you shield up again. Sure people will be caught out of shields more often, but it won't be that much more often. On the other side higher score players will appear in higher scoring players queues more often, so the effect of longer matches may actually be to increase scoring as top end players stop having to snipe for 8 because everyone at their level is shielded and not in any of their queues.

In other words, I "draft" behind the big scorers, letting them lead the way to better Progression rewards. Most of us do. If the T5 are not hitting 2000, then fewer of us are getting the 800, 1100 and 1300 Progression rewards. So, in "nerf" parlance: A nerf to Sentry is a nerf to Progression awards.

Am I wrong?

Yes. Because if you deleted Sentry tomorrow people wouldn't suddenly stop shield hopping or trying to score high. You just might see more roster diversity instead. You might see more high score people available in your queue because they were unshielded long enough. Your scores might improve as a result.

GuntherBlobel

Eddiemon wrote:

GuntherBlobel wrote:

Am I wrong?

Yes. Because if you deleted Sentry tomorrow people wouldn't suddenly stop shield hopping or trying to score high. You just might see more roster diversity instead. You might see more high score people available in your queue because they were unshielded long enough. Your scores might improve as a result.

I didn't quote the whole thing, but this was a really good point-by-response. After reading this and a few other responses, I concede. Bring on the Sentry nerf! (How do you lock these things?)

Unknown

@Eddiemon You are neglecting the fact that you can only fight one opponent at a time but you can be queued by multiple people at once. We already know what shield hopping was like before Sentry - 2 battles mostly, 3 was super rare. So it wouldn't be surprising for the average HP spend on shields to go up 1.5x to achieve the same scores if Sentrybombing was removed.

Unknown

GuntherBlobel wrote:

sms4002 wrote:

This is true. OP, you say you never hop or use sentry. If you did you would understand. using sentry and full boosts you can win matches in 30 seconds, by making 2 matches. This is the reason it is completely broken. It makes it p2w (as the boosts costs hero points). If sentry is nerfed you can't win matches in 30 seconds anymore and hops become dangerous again. You can't just boost in for a free win, you can have a lot that can go wrong and in the time it takes to win you can be hit again. Sentry is game breaking and needs his nerf sooner than later.

I said I rarely hop and I rarely use Sentry. When I do hop I prefer to use Patch/Hulk. With full boosts, it takes one green match to win. If the board is lousy and there are no greens; Hulk will fix that. Its pretty reliable and it only costs one health pack per win. So, I know what its like to play that game. I agree, it is P2W. (You may think I'm crazy for not using Sentry/Hood, but maybe thats why all you see right now is Sentry/Hood. Players generally prefer the optimal team over all other viable alternatives. That won't change post-Sentry. So I don't expect to ever see diversity in the high level game.)

I fully expect the game to continue to be P2W and the shield-hopping game to continue to lack imagination/fun. What I do like about Sentry, at least, is that people don't use him to climb, so I can forget that he exists until 700 pts or so. If there must be a top-dog, Sentry is a good choice. If X-Force becomes the top dog, however, I expect to get face him constantly. Kinda like how "Children of the Atom" was for me.

How is full boosted patch hulk one match? you have to count on anger to do enough damage? Wouldn't his anger just clear out all your strikes and leave the enemy's? And why use a team that takes one health pack per win instead of sentry hood? it costs the same in boosts.

Unknown

gobstopper wrote:

@Eddiemon You are neglecting the fact that you can only fight one opponent at a time but you can be queued by multiple people at once. We already know what shield hopping was like before Sentry - 2 battles mostly, 3 was super rare. So it wouldn't be surprising for the average HP spend on shields to go up 1.5x to achieve the same scores if Sentrybombing was removed.

Are you saying this is a good thing or a bad thing? I'm willing to bet guys would not be trying for 2k scores without sentry. It would cost waaay too much and has way too much risk in getting hit during your match. Sounds good to me.

Unknown

1 word " balance" without balance it will died very soon

homeinvasion

If sentry gets nerfed the list of viable strategies will go from 2 to 1, Every team will be Xforce

hurcules

Katai wrote:

Can Spiderman be useful on defense before turn 2? If not, Sentry bombing wins before Spiderman can stun Sentry (might stun a hood, whoop-de-doo).

Theoretically yes.

Turn 1: Sentry does a green match. AI does a blue match.
Turn 2: Sentry casts WR. AI casts ATU (2AP) on Sentry. Sentry stunned for 1 turn. AI does a blue match (AI blue AP at this point: 4)
Turn 3: featured or Hood does a yellow match. AI casts on featured or Hood and stunned for 2 turns. AI does a blue match (AI blue AP at this point: 5). Sentry active again.
Turn 4: Sentry casts Sacrifice. WR ticks down to 1. If Hood wasn't stunned, Hood can cast Intimidation and game over. If Hood was stunned, and featured makes a match, featured gets stunned and game over in the next turn. Sentry makes a match, then Sentry gets stunned for 3 turns.


So as you can see, Spidey can be useful and potentially avoid full Sac Rupture if Spidey gets 2 blue match-3s early.

Unknown

homeinvasion wrote:

If sentry gets nerfed the list of viable strategies will go from 2 to 1, Every team will be Xforce

Maybe also Thor4? It's only expected that at the very top 4* will tend to dominate. Fury isn't at the top because he's harder to use.

GuntherBlobel

sms4002 wrote:

How is full boosted patch hulk one match? you have to count on anger to do enough damage? Wouldn't his anger just clear out all your strikes and leave the enemy's? And why use a team that takes one health pack per win instead of sentry hood? it costs the same in boosts.

So, my point was that people choose Sentry even though other options work. Which I think you are proving for yourself, because you would prefer to use the optimal solution even if I say this one works too. Remember, defense and health pack usage matters little when shield-hopping 3 matches every hour or so. So it does work, but maybe it takes a tiny bit more skill and set-up than Sentry does.

On to the nit-picky stuff: Actually, one Grn/Blk boost and two green matches is still cheaper than Sentry, right? You don't literally win the game at 9 green, but you begin the infinite green combo machine. Hulk will kill Hood with his Anger alone while Sentry will go down from match damage. If your strike tiles are now gone, well then you should be swimming in green AP, which you can use to repeat the combo. However, it doesn't work the same in every scenario (much like X-Force as Phantron notes), which makes it less optimal. So, again, it's not meant that this is better than Sentry, but that few people will ever even try it because it is ever so less preferable.

Unknown

GuntherBlobel wrote:

sms4002 wrote:

How is full boosted patch hulk one match? you have to count on anger to do enough damage? Wouldn't his anger just clear out all your strikes and leave the enemy's? And why use a team that takes one health pack per win instead of sentry hood? it costs the same in boosts.

So, my point was that people choose Sentry even though other options work. Which I think you are proving for yourself, because you would prefer to use the optimal solution even if I say this one works too. Remember, defense and health pack usage matters little when shield-hopping 3 matches every hour or so. So it does work, but maybe it takes a tiny bit more skill and set-up than Sentry does.

On to the nit-picky stuff: Actually, one Grn/Blk boost and two green matches is still cheaper than Sentry, right? You don't literally win the game at 9 green, but you begin the infinite green combo machine. Hulk will kill Hood with his Anger alone while Sentry will go down from match damage. If your strike tiles are now gone, well then you should be swimming in green AP, which you can use to repeat the combo. However, it doesn't work the same in every scenario (much like X-Force as Phantron notes), which makes it less optimal. So, again, it's not meant that this is better than Sentry, but that few people will ever even try it because it is ever so less preferable.

For the record, I HATE sentry and never use him. I use xforce, you get wins with NO health packs needed . But seriously, The reason nobody else will try other combos (like hulk patch etc) is because sentry just blows them all out of the water. I could prolly guarantee a win with falcon spidey bullseye but it would take 8 years to complete the match. The main reason for sentry is speed. when you get up to 1300+ it's not the strength of your team it's the speed in which you can win. For every one match you do, 5 people queue you up. Being able to do two matches in 1 min makes it so you don't lose points. I really look forward to post sentry days when we can see more experimental teams.

babinro

Because the interaction of his skills are unbalanced and it's the right thing to do.

15 AP (8y, 7g) should not be able to easily deal 7000+ AOE damage. Period.

It's really just that simple.

Thor does 2.3k AOE and another 2.3k single target for 14.
GSBW does 3.9k AOE for 19.
BP does 3.7k but with a drawback.
Beast has to combine his skills over a turn like Sentry and easily does less than 3k AOE (being VERY generous with that figure as well)

Why do we have a character dealing 7k+? Even if you take into account his drawback of self damage you really shouldn't exceed GSBW's 4k by much at all.
The skill simply isn't balanced. There are probably dozens of ways to balance it laziest of which could be to cap damage output of the skill before cascades to 4500 AOE.

If we don't care about balance then why did we ever bother nerfing mags, spidey, rags and why did we ever bother buffing hawkeye and xforce?

Side Note: X-Force black also needs a nerf and we all know it. The only reason it's under the radar is because of Sentry and because it's less devastating on defense. Also it's genuinely fun.

GrumpySmurf1002

babinro wrote:

Side Note: X-Force black also needs a nerf and we all know it. The only reason it's under the radar is because of Sentry and because it's less devastating on defense. Also it's genuinely fun.

Disagree. It's one of the best abilities in the game, but a 4* character should have a devastating attack. Fury basically ruins any character for 10 blue and the wrong tile match. FourThor is definitely going to have "you're dead now" powers too.

Most importantly though, none of those characters have "change how the game is played" qualities to their powers, which Sentry does with his 3/4 turn wins.

Unknown

Surgical Strike needs a nerf if they continue to insist to put the best characters with red/green/yellow as their strongest color. While there isn't any inherent reason why this is true, it sure is true in the current meta game.

David [Hi-Fi] Moore

Greetings all,

We wanted to give you a heads-up on changes to Sentry and The Hood that will be going into effect shortly before Thanksgiving (late November).

While Sentry and The Hood are mighty heroes, under certain circumstances, ability exploits could arise. We wanted to address these exploits and make the game more fun for everyone.

We hope that you will be pleased with the new updates for Sentry and The Hood. For anyone dissatisfied with the updates, please be aware that we will be increasing sell prices for both characters, for a limited time, after the updates are implemented.

As always, anything listed below is subject to change before release.

Here's word from IceIX:

Sentry
Sentry may have the power of a million exploding suns, but he was shining a bit too brightly for the rest of the Marvel Puzzle Quest universe to cast their own shadows. Each of his abilities were looked at in turn, as well as in combination with one another and the various methods of gaining AP to come up with a more appropriate power set for this slightly confused champion of not-so-justice.

Old:

Supernova - 11 Red AP
The Sentry projects an epic energy blast. Damages the enemy team for 438 before shattering up to 4 random Red tiles. Each tile damages the enemy team for 82 and allies for 82 but does not generate AP. This ability ends the turn.
Level Upgrades

Level 2: Damage to allies reduced to 66 per red tile destroyed. Level 3: Destroys up to 7 Red tiles. Level 4: Damages the enemy team for 564. Level 5: Destroys up to 9 tiles, with damage to allies reduced to 43 per tile. Max Level: 1791 + 261 enemies/137 allies

New

Supernova - 11 Red AP
The Sentry projects an epic energy blast. Damages the enemy team for 329 before shattering up to 4 random Red tiles. Each tile damages the enemy team for 82 and allies for 82 but does not generate AP. This ability ends the turn.
Level Upgrades

Level 2: Sentry hits the enemy team for 355 damage. Damage to his own team is reduced to 66 damage per tile. Level 3: Sentry hits the enemy team for 378 damage, and destroys 5 Red tiles. Level 4: Sentry hits the enemy team for 428 damage, and destroys 7 Red tiles. Level 5: Sentry hits the enemy team for 494 damage, and destroys 9 Red tiles. Damage to his own team is reduced to 43 damage per tile destroyed. Max Level: Max Level: 1565 + 261 enemies/137 allies

Old:

World Rupture - 7 Green AP
Sentry flies into the heart of the battlefield, sending waves of kinetic energy rippling outward. Creates Countdown tiles that do 55 damage to enemies and 27 to allies.
Level Upgrades

Level 2: Reduces ally damage to 23 Level 3: Impact extends further towards the corners Level 4: Reduces ally damage to 20. Level 5: Impact extends further. Max Level: 174 enemies/ 64 allies (16 2-turn Countdown tiles)

New

World Rupture - 12 Green AP
Sentry flies into the heart of the battlefield, sending waves of kinetic energy rippling outward. Creates Countdown tiles that do 44 damage to enemies and 27 to allies. (Dev note: Still an X pattern, removed the text for brevity.)
Level Upgrades

Level 2: Impact extends further towards the corners. Level 3: Countdown tiles do 50 damage to the enemy. Reduces ally damage to 23. Level 4: Impact extends further towards the corners. Countdown tiles do 52 damage to the enemy. Reduces ally damage to 20. Level 5: Impact extends further towards the corners. Countdown tiles do 58 damage to the enemy. Max Level: 182 enemies / 64 allies (16 3-turn Countdown tiles) *World Rupture creates 16 countdown tiles at max level (hasn't changed) but the duration has gone from 2 turns to 3 turns (for all levels).

Old:

Sacrifice - 8 Yellow AP
The Sentry sacrifices himself for the good of the team. He takes 548 damage, but converts a random basic Yellow tile into a Strike tile with a strength of 137.
Level Upgrades

Level 2: Creates a strike tile with a strength of 151 Level 3: Sentry takes 466 damage. Level 4: Creates Strike tile with a strength of 173. Level 5: Sentry takes 411 damage, for a 212 strike tile. Max Level: Takes 1304 for 674 strike tile.

New

Sacrifice - 8 Yellow AP
The Sentry sacrifices himself for the good of the team. He takes 646 damage, but converts a random basic Yellow tile into a Strike tile with a strength of 104.
Level Upgrades

Level 2: Creates a strike tile with a strength of 114. Level 3: Sentry takes 543 damage. Level 4: Creates a strike tile with a strength of 139. Level 5: Creates a strike tile with a strength of 180. Max Level: Takes 1724 for 571 strike tile.

Spoit

Yeah, after talking about it with my alliance, I'm not sure that these sentry changes really will do all that much. If you're willing to pay hard, that's still only 6 AP short. So on net, it's realistically only 1 extra green match, 1 extra turn, and only a smidgen less than 1k damage per enemy less.

It'll extend shield hopping times if you're in a green light board, maybe make only going for 2 instead of 3 safe, and have a marginally higher chance of the enemy pulling off a power to screw with you, but I still don't see losing happening with that many boosts.

It's like they looked at the poll options and missed the whole point about WR being broken because of the double dipping