*** Sentry (Dark Avengers) ***

wymtime

It would not stop Sentry Hopping, but spiderman could be used instead of Hood or Daken for some hops. Boosting Spiderman with the right board would allow you to possibly stun and take an extra turn to make WR go faster. On Defense if he stuns Sentry it could allow your defense to get rid of WR or Sacrafice. The problem is you then don't have hood stealing AP for you. I would take Hood+X-Force or Sentry over old Spiderman+Sentry or X-Force. Hoods steal just makes everyone that much faster.

GuntherBlobel

Disclaimer: I have a cover-maxed Sentry (as of a few weeks ago), but I rarely use him. I also rarely shield hop.

Here's my question. Why is it so obvious that Sentry is a problem for the game, in general? I never see him below 700 pts, so I can have plenty of fun up that point, trying out different team compositions and playing varied opponents. In fact, I'm far more sick of Storm/mnMags than I am of Sentry/Hood.

From 800 pts. and above, the game shifts to shield hopping, because point losses far exceed gains over time. I don't care what your team is, you can't really have a fun and relaxing game beyond this point and increase your score. I don't blame Sentry for this, I blame the scoring algorithm.

So again, my question is, why does it matter if you only fight Sentry/Hood/Daken beyond this point? How would removing/nerfing Sentry fix the high level game? Won't it always boil down to a speed game that lacks diversity? (I'm looking at you Hulk/Patch).

Here's a counter point to the Sentry nerf. When Sentry is nerfed, I think I will miss the old days of inflated scores, because I benefit from the 50 pt matches even when I am not shield hopping. The more the T5 gets inflated, the easier it is for me to hit 800 pts without shielding. If I do choose to shield hop, I can make it to the 1100 pt reward pretty easily. This used to be fairly hard for me and not worth the HP. Thank you Sentry-bombers and your 50 pt matches. I don't even feel sorry for sniping, because I'm sure you have re-shielded by now.

In other words, I "draft" behind the big scorers, letting them lead the way to better Progression rewards. Most of us do. If the T5 are not hitting 2000, then fewer of us are getting the 800, 1100 and 1300 Progression rewards. So, in "nerf" parlance: A nerf to Sentry is a nerf to Progression awards.

Am I wrong?

Unknown

Another topic with the word "Sentry" on the title. Brace yourselves, 4 page long thread is coming.

GuntherBlobel

Okin107 wrote:

Another topic with the word "Sentry" on the title. Brace yourselves, 4 page long thread is coming.

I'm sure it will be, but I'm asking the question because all these discussions assume that nerfing Sentry will make the game more fun. Is that a good assumption?

Unknown

I see.

nvm

Unknown

ark123 wrote:

http://www.d3pforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=19029

Just search ffs

Two completely different topics.

The only correlation is Sentry.

Maybe read the original post before linking an unrelated thread.

Unknown

If pre-nerf spiderman still existed, people would just use Patch or Xforce with Sentry.

Patch and Xforce are the only characters, that I know of, that beat or tie Sentry in both yellow and green.

Therefore, Sentry is never tanking, so they would need to stun Patch/Xforce and then Sentry in the same turn.

Well, Mohawk storm too, but no one would ever use her...

Unknown

Sentry is a problem because it makes the meta game boring. People complain about seeing only Sentry at the top, but the real complaint is you NEED Sentry to make it to the top. It causes game stagnation by forcing only one style of play, one roster, and one that doesn't take that much effort to boot. Noobs with cash can max out a sentry, buy boosts, healing packs, and shields and compete with the best.

I don't see shield hopping as a problem. I do agree that nerfing sentry will make progression rewards harder to hit, which might be a good thing.

CStorm/MNMags are glass cannons, and there's plenty of other ways to rank up in that range.

MarvelMan

daibar wrote:

Sentry is a problem because it makes the meta game boring. People complain about seeing only Sentry at the top, but the real complaint is you NEED Sentry to make it to the top. It causes game stagnation by forcing only one style of play, one roster, and one that doesn't take that much effort to boot. Noobs with cash can max out a sentry, buy boosts, healing packs, and shields and compete with the best.

I don't see shield hopping as a problem. I do agree that nerfing sentry will make progression rewards harder to hit, which might be a good thing.

CStorm/MNMags are glass cannons, and there's plenty of other ways to rank up in that range.

Um, if its not Sentry it will be some other char/combo. Which is the OPs point. Do we really want to just swap Sentry for the next FOTW?

_RiO_

MarvelMan wrote:

Um, if its not Sentry it will be some other char/combo. Which is the OPs point. Do we really want to just swap Sentry for the next FOTW?

Yes, we do.

We've had other game-breaking combinations before and those have been dealt with as well. Sentry-bombing is far more distorting to the game and really, really needs to go.
If that will give rise to another broken combination, then so be it. Odds are it will not be as bad as Sentry-bombing. And if it proves itself to distort the game, then the characters involved can be given a balance pass as well. Such is how a competitive online game operates.

Unknown

The 2nd problem with Sentry-bombing is it works in all situations except restricted PVE. Load up the Deadpool PVP, who's on top? Sentry bombs! Load up the Patch PVP, who's on top? Sentry bombs! Load up the Colossus PVP,...

The game is more fun if the events actually mean changing up the roster at least a little like it was intended, like how a Deadpool PVP encourages Hood use or other powerful fragile characters, or how the Children of the Atom encourages Wolverine/Psylocke combos. We want to stop being forced to use Sentry to compete, and lord knows we're all competitive.

Unknown

_RiO_ wrote:

MarvelMan wrote:

Um, if its not Sentry it will be some other char/combo. Which is the OPs point. Do we really want to just swap Sentry for the next FOTW?

Yes, we do.

We've had other game-breaking combinations before and those have been dealt with as well. Sentry-bombing is far more distorting to the game and really, really needs to go.
If that will give rise to another broken combination, then so be it. Odds are it will not be as bad as Sentry-bombing. And if it proves itself to distort the game, then the characters involved can be given a balance pass as well. Such is how a competitive online game operates.

This is true. OP, you say you never hop or use sentry. If you did you would understand. using sentry and full boosts you can win matches in 30 seconds, by making 2 matches. This is the reason it is completely broken. It makes it p2w (as the boosts costs hero points). If sentry is nerfed you can't win matches in 30 seconds anymore and hops become dangerous again. You can't just boost in for a free win, you can have a lot that can go wrong and in the time it takes to win you can be hit again. Sentry is game breaking and needs his nerf sooner than later.

Unknown

Why people don't understand that problem is in boosting, without it Sentry would be as good as others.
After his nerf players will be used X-Force (with Hood/Mags), nothing will change really...

MarvelMan

_RiO_ wrote:

MarvelMan wrote:

Um, if its not Sentry it will be some other char/combo. Which is the OPs point. Do we really want to just swap Sentry for the next FOTW?

Yes, we do.

We've had other game-breaking combinations before and those have been dealt with as well. Sentry-bombing is far more distorting to the game and really, really needs to go.
If that will give rise to another broken combination, then so be it. Odds are it will not be as bad as Sentry-bombing. And if it proves itself to distort the game, then the characters involved can be given a balance pass as well. Such is how a competitive online game operates.

By no stretch am I saying that Sentry doesnt suck, isnt broken, etc. My point, and what I think the OP is getting at, is wouldnt it be better to address the mechanics that lead to Sentry being the best at using boosts to finish matches fastest as the meta-game?

Unknown

Just because a team is always going to be strongest doesn't mean it's somehow all the same.

Let's say there's an event that features Mystique coming up. Currently your shield hop team would likely be Mystique + The Hood + Sentry and it'd look exactly like any other event.

Let's say Sentry is just gone from the game so you probably run X Force + The Hood instead. An opponent has Mystique at level 200 so purple is their strongest color. What do you do? You can boost and go for a Surgical Strike, but that'd get you purple. I guess you can use it on Shapeshift except that's really not going to help you win any faster. It'd essentially turn into X Force doing all the damage and you just have to hope you matched enough black/green to go through 3 guys before you get hit. That's pretty risky! Or do you do the unthinkable and drop The Hood for Deadpool instead so you can Surgical Strike into Whales? But then you don't have The Hood and that's also very risky too. You probably won't lose if you go in with max boosts, but you certainly should be worried about being hit.

This scenario happens pretty much as long as the featured character isn't strong in yellow, green, or red with a strong red move. That is, let's say Captain Marvel is featured so Surgical Strike is on red, but Photonic Blast isn't exactly something you can count on to do damage quickly, so do you have X Force again being responsible for your team's entire offense, or do you drop The Hood for a strong red character like Captain America or HT? And that's the second strongest offensive character we're talking about here. Anyone else would have even bigger risks when it comes to shield hopping timing and team composition. And having things like risks helps in making the game less P2W, as you can come out way ahead by knowing when to take your risks and when not to. Currently, there's no risk involved in Sentry bombing so it's just a matter of how much HP you got to do it.

Katai

Can Spiderman be useful on defense before turn 2? If not, Sentry bombing wins before Spiderman can stun Sentry (might stun a hood, whoop-de-doo).

Unknown

When Sentry is nerfed, I expect inflated total scores to disappear until something as equally broken is found. While this will make reaching some progression rewards harder because there aren't that high total scores anymore to leech from, I think it will also ease on the casual players and everyone for ranking. If you couldn't get into top 100 before with 600 points, maybe you will be able to do it now. I think it's a good thing.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

Your example is extreme (Mystique at level 200), and even if, the only difference is you do less fights between shields, so you need more HP to score high, how it is less PTW?

Unknown

raziel777 wrote:

Phantron wrote:

Your example is extreme (Mystique at level 200), and even if, the only difference is you do less fights between shields, so you need more HP to score high, how it is less PTW?

Level 200 Mystique would be around level 130 base. You don't need to be quite that high to overtake X Force with highest color either. I think level 120 or so will do, and this is a level that's easily obtainable by high end rosters if it ever made sense to defend against X Force like this. Right now it does not because nothing defends against Sentry so why bother?

Let's say it takes 3 minutes to win on average without Sentry with max boosts and 1 minute to win with Sentry with max boosts. First of all even if all that does is make it cost 3 times as much HP to shield hop it might get expensive enough to discourage people from doing this at all. But it's not really that simple. Let's say you have a 3 minute lead for breaking a shield so that you can win 3 fights with Sentry safely on average and 1 fight without Sentry safely on average. But that's only on average. Even while running Sentry sometimes you get those boards with no yellow matches anywhere. So let's say the length of a fight may vary between 50-200% of the average time. With Sentry, the worst case is that it takes you 2 minute to win, while the fastest your opponent can win is 3 minute (lead time) + 30 seconds (half of 1 minute), so you still have a 1m 30s margin.

But if it takes 3 minutes to win on average your worst case is that it takes you 6 minutes to win, while the fastest your opponent can win is 3 minute + 1m 30s = 4m 30s, so they'd be ahead of you by 1m 30s. Now there's always luck involved but skill also reduces the chance of bad luck happening. If you can analyze the board very fast and accurately the chance of you running into a 6 minute match is considerably less than someone else who cannot. This also promotes risk taking. Currently any event that features a relatively weak blue/purple strongest color character can easily take 6 minutes to win with the second best team (X Force + The Hood + featured) since purple/blue do not combo into anything interesting with this setup and you're reliant on only matching black/green for damage the entire game. So to avoid this maybe you'd have to do what is currently unthinkable by dropping The Hood, because taking 6 minutes to win might be just as bad as a loss. Of course you can get burned for taking risk too, but that's why it's called a risk. Presumably people who are good at the game can reliably come out ahead in such decisions in the long run and that would not be dependent on just how much HP they spent.

GuntherBlobel

KevinMark wrote:

When Sentry is nerfed, I expect inflated total scores to disappear until something as equally broken is found. While this will make reaching some progression rewards harder because there aren't that high total scores anymore to leech from, I think it will also ease on the casual players and everyone for ranking. If you couldn't get into top 100 before with 600 points, maybe you will be able to do it now. I think it's a good thing.

Thanks KevinMark, I get your point. I personally don't like when the top scores get so clumped that a last minute win could change the rankings, but I do get that it would give some newer players that chance to jump into the T100 if they did. When I see the T5 at 2000 pts, I know I have to walk away from it, but I also think it might be good time to try for 1100 and get an extra cover that way. That's good for me, but not everyone.