Character rankings 6/14 edition: the results!

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  • Thanks for the hard work mischiefmaker icon_e_biggrin.gif

    I have arrange the new ranking in the excel at my signature ;D

    I will wait for your next ranking in a few moths after the "true healing" changes

    Regards
  • I'm glad this ranking ce out when it did. The game changed drastically with the healing nerf and it's a nice in the good ole days list. I don't think the top of the list will change that much but everyone has to rethink the game now, and maybe the next list will be pretty different.
  • HairyDaveHairyDave Posts: 1,574
    RageFace wrote:
    I'm glad this ranking ce out when it did. The game changed drastically with the healing nerf and it's a nice in the good ole days list. I don't think the top of the list will change that much but everyone has to rethink the game now, and maybe the next list will be pretty different.
    I'd rate Bullseye higher than I would a week ago but he's still garbage icon_e_biggrin.gif

    Protect tiles are a lot more useful now.
  • Re: Punisher: Patch's green is not strictly better because of the side effect. We all see it all the time on defense where sometimes the enemy Patch getting a Berserker Rage off is a win for you. If you can't "go off" with other abilities (especially C.Mags' blue and/or red) using Berseker Rage is a potential double-edged sword where using it will at least lead to suffering more damage than you otherwise would have. Judgment is a safer ability to use earlier, so you make up some of the lost damage by using it earlier, PLUS you don't suffer as much damage the other way. And Patch basically has one ability plus his regen, because TBTI rarely gets used. Whereas Punisher has 3 actives which all have reasonable costs.

    LazyThor's green is a different playstyle: going for the big AOE wipeout with 14 green rather than getting strike tiles out early and chipping away with the strike tile damage. It's Thunder Strike which makes it viable (and makes LazyThor better than Punisher), and even then it's worth considering playing GSBW with LazyThor and having Thunder Strike fuel Sniper Rifle instead.

    Punisher is perhaps a touch overrated due to so many people having covers for him but he has 3 useable powers at under 10 AP a pop, a black power (unusual among the top tier characters), is hard to tie down with AP denial, is especially useful against high HP boosted characters and just generally contributes. The high crit and enviro tile rates are not bad either.

    I would assume the healing nerf drops OBW down the list (but not dramatically because her purple is still good, and the Espionage-strike tile combo is still nice but obviously if she doesn't heal she's not going to last as long in teams where she tanks the necessary colours) and more time after the Spidey nerf would have dropped him down the list anyway but now he'll especially drop.

    "Win faster" is still the best way to avoid taking damage, not dropping protect tiles. I wouldn't rate protect tile guys higher because of this.
  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Re: punisher v psylocke. I think just the fact that punisher has 3 good abilties vs psylockes 2 good abilties makes a world of difference in terms of team comp. psylocke might work better with other green heroes, but punisher can be both the main focus of your team (say as a 2->3* transition guy) whereas psylocke cant do that ss well due to only having 2 relevant abilities. That might be the main reason why punisher is ranked so highly, since both characters seem like theyre at a similar power level once you have a developed 3* roster (although dat cmags + punisher synergy)
  • FWIW, I project She-Hulk to come out a little underneath IM40 in the next edition. To me she projects as an "not bad but not great" character like IM40 who at least has high HP as a deterrent but will come out below him both because:

    a) lots of people have high powered IM40s as a comparison, and haven't seen high powered She-Hulks yet; and
    b) she doesn't have an ability like Recharge which fits in with all kinds of pairings which don't have that colour covered. All teams already have a red and a green, and her blue plays badly with teams which already produce strike tiles, attack tiles or protect tiles (which would be most if not all teams). Whereas unless you run LazyThor or original Thor there's a reasonable chance you don't have yellow covered, or don't have it covered by anything which is a must-use (e.g. Black Panther's yellow). That's also what makes Falcon an acceptable character to partner with a lot of teams, at least his yellow goes well with characters like Patch and Punisher.
  • Isay_IsayIsay_Isay Posts: 115 Tile Toppler
    My take on the Psylocke vs. Punisher
    The benefit Punisher has black to black is it does damage to all opponents versus one for Psylocke, but as the match goes on things swing heavily to Psylocke.
    In terms of total damage and assuming that the attack tiles do not get matched:
    3 opponents (5 Psi-Katana vs. 5 Molotov)
    After 8 turns, Psi-Katana ends up doing more overall damage, but Molotov takes over again next turn due to an additional attack tile

    3 opponents (5 Psi-Katana vs. 3 Molotov)
    After 5 turns, Psi-Katana ends up doing more overall damage. Molotov takes over again after 24 turns.

    2 opponents (5 Psi-Katana vs. 5 Molotov)
    After 2 turns, Psi-Katana ends up doing more overall damage. Molotov takes over again after 15 turns

    2 opponents (5 Psi-Katana vs. 3 Molotov)
    After 2 turns, Psi-Katana ends up doing more overall damage. Molotov takes over again after 27 turns.

    1 opponent (5 Psi-Katana vs. 5 Molotov)
    Psi-Katana immediately ends up doing more overall damage. Molotov takes over after 18 turns

    1 opponent (5 Psi-Katana vs. 3 Molotov)
    Psi-Katana immediately ends up doing more overall damage. Molotov takes over after 30 turns

    Additionally, Molotov also has the benefit of weakening OBW’s heal by simply being on the board.

    Prognostications-
    Mohawk – somewhere in the 16-20 range since her red took a hit over her 1* counterpart
    Nick Fury – 11 or 12, incredibly strong but the likelihood of seeing (let alone using) a maxed Fury is remote
    She Hulk – Low 20s, mass of HP, but (maybe) one useful ability.
    True Healing – Spiderman drops even further, Hood finally overtakes OBW
  • HairyDaveHairyDave Posts: 1,574
    Isay_Isay wrote:
    My take on the Psylocke vs. Punisher
    The benefit Punisher has black to black is it does damage to all opponents versus one for Psylocke, but as the match goes on things swing heavily to Psylocke.
    I've never mathed it up but that's pretty close to how I end up using them (and I use them together pretty frequently as they're my two highest). The first load of black AP goes towards a Molotov so I can hit every opponent, after that it's dependant on whether the AOE or immediate damage is going to be most beneficial and Psi-Katana usually wins out.
  • - his green generates more strike tiles, but her red does more direct damage, and gets cheaper with more tiles on board. Only having one tile is a major downside, but multiple casts of his green have less marginal benefit than multiple casts of her red. Advantage: Punisher, but it's closer than people think.
    - her black does more damage to a single target up front, guarantees attack tile damage immediately, and is quicker to get off. Advantage: Psylocke, and it's not as close as people think.
    - his red is mediocre; in the current PvE format, you'll rarely need to use the auto-kill option, which makes it a run-of-the-mill direct damage power. Her blue is more or less terrible -- you can build a team around it to make it marginally playable, and every once in a while you'll get something good out of it (like 12 black AP), but it's not something you want to rely on. Advantage: Punisher.

    Looking at just the powers, it's clear Punisher comes out ahead, but not by much. The kicker is, Psylocke plays significantly better with most of the top characters, because she doesn't compete for green, and as such makes a much better sidekick for a top-tier team.

    I think the reason you're rating Punisher so much lower than most people is that you're SEVERELY underrating his Green. I agree that Psylocke's black is clearly better than Molotov, but Judgement is just head and shoulders above all of her powers. It's going to give you far, far more damage than her red, and that advantage is significant enough that it remains better over multiple casts even accounting for Psylocke's cost reduction. And that's not even counting the tile destruction - Judgement's board shakeup/destruction isn't the best or the most consistent, but it's still good enough that it's also a major advantage Psylocke lacks.
  • Isay_Isay wrote:
    Prognostications-
    Mohawk – somewhere in the 16-20 range since her red took a hit over her 1* counterpart
    Nick Fury – 11 or 12, incredibly strong but the likelihood of seeing (let alone using) a maxed Fury is remote
    She Hulk – Low 20s, mass of HP, but (maybe) one useful ability.
    True Healing – Spiderman drops even further, Hood finally overtakes OBW

    I'd say Mohawk is down with She Hulk, but who really knows? Unlike characters like Sentry and TurDaken, it seems few people have cared that much about paying out to max Mohawk. I haven't seen a high level Mohawk in PVP at all yet (whereas I swear I was fighting maxed 141 TurDaken's within a day or so of the first TurDaken covers being handed out). That alone suggests to me they are both low 20s characters.

    Nick Fury would be incredibly hard to judge. Quietly I suspect a maxed Nick Fury is the best character in the game even before we know what his yellow does exactly- huge damage, huge HP, a terrific colour combination that covers off the lesser used colours. But literally nobody can have a maxed Nick Fury yet to actually play with him.

    I kind of wonder how many whales, at the end of season 3, are going to spend ungodly amounts of cash to max him.

    If we did the vote now and Nick Fury was an option I'd be highly tempted to vote him #2 (behind C.Mags).
  • over_clockedover_clocked Posts: 3,961
    Zhirrzh wrote:
    I'd say Mohawk is down with She Hulk, but who really knows? Unlike characters like Sentry and TurDaken, it seems few people have cared that much about paying out to max Mohawk. I haven't seen a high level Mohawk in PVP at all yet (whereas I swear I was fighting maxed 141 TurDaken's within a day or so of the first TurDaken covers being handed out). That alone suggests to me they are both low 20s characters.

    Nick Fury would be incredibly hard to judge. Quietly I suspect a maxed Nick Fury is the best character in the game even before we know what his yellow does exactly- huge damage, huge HP, a terrific colour combination that covers off the lesser used colours. But literally nobody can have a maxed Nick Fury yet to actually play with him.
    I have seen some maxed Mororos and softcapped Furys, though fewer than maxed Dakens, but Daken is an older character by now. My MMR must be a bit high atm, though (haven't tanked in Army of Pun).
    In fact, found a maxed Mororo team again just now with a few skips:

    fXyFnh8l.png

    That person has zero maxed 3*s besides Mororo. Can't be cover luck, can it? They just seem to think that 5/5/3 Mororo is a strong character.
  • mischiefmakermischiefmaker Age Unconfirmed Posts: 932
    Love all the discussion generated by the Punisher/Psylocke debate. I'm definitely willing to buy that Punisher is a better transition character because he has three useful powers, but I'm not sure it merits a top 5 spot.

    Regarding the black on black comparison from Isay_Isay, the analysis is good but I think you're missing a couple of things:
    - Total damage is not an apples to apples comparison. For instance, let's say Punisher's black had the same CD/attack tile side effect as it currently does, but instead of 668 damage to all targets, it did 2k damage to a single target. Would we consider this power better, worse, or the same? Reasonable people can differ but I'd much much rather have single target damage.
    - Damage over time is also not apples-to-apples because you're assuming that none of the tiles get matched. While this is a reasonable assumption for comparing the first two turns (since you're just as likely to match Punisher's single red countdown as Psylocke's single black attack tile), it's not a reasonable assumption once the first Molotov attack tile is produced, because a) the attack tile is on a random color tile you can't pre-match and b) over time there are an increasing number of tiles on board, so the chance that you match one is higher.

    gamar: I agree that Judgment is clearly better than all of her powers, but as I mentioned in the writeup, I think it's a lot closer than most people give it credit for. Let's start with objective analysis (yay numbers!)

    - Punisher produces 3x104 tiles, smashes on average 7.5 tiles. If we assume rainbow tile damage, that's about 125 damage per tile, minus one expected env tile, but also adding back 1.65 tiles in cascades, so around 900 damage total (this seems in line with what people report). Psylocke produces 1 192 tile, does 965 damage. That doesn't look too good for Psylocke, whose initial damage advantage gets wiped out on the first turn. However, Punisher's tiles land on random colors, whereas you can (and usually do) match all the red you can before casting Psylocke's red, so I think Punisher's tiles are more likely to get matched. I'm not sure how to account for this; it definitely doesn't make up the full gap in strike tiles but being as one match makes the damage roughly equal, it ought to count for something.
    - On the second cast, the number of strike tiles you expect to lose is a bit complicated:
    o Chance that any given tile is in the smashed box: 7.5/64 = 11.7%
    o Therefore, chance that no tiles are smashed: (1-0.117)^3 = 68.8% (sounds about right)
    o Chance that exactly one tile is smashed: (1-0.117)^2 * 0.117 * 3 = 27.4% (chance that two tiles are not smashed * chance that one tile is smashed * three ways to pick one tile)
    o (leaving calculation for 2 tiles and 3 tiles as exercise for the reader)
    o Therefore, expected number of smashed tiles = 0.35, which is quite a bit lower than I thought

    OK, I grant that the objective analysis does not look very good for Psylocke. How about comparative analysis? Looking at the top 12 from the rankings list:

    Magneto: outstanding with Punisher. Less good with Psylocke since you need a lot more red.
    Thor/Patch/Sentry: not good with Punisher as all compete for green. Less of a problem with Psylocke's red though there is some issue with Psylocke taking a color tile from Patch, weakening TBTI.
    Daken: Great with both, maybe a bit better with Punisher since you get more strike tiles on the Molotov area damage.
    BP, Hulk: no meaningful interactions I can think of.
    OBW, Hood: about even. Psylocke's slightly cheaper costs plays a tiny bit better with AP steal; Punisher's better strike tiles play better with Espionage.
    Cap: not good with Psylocke as both compete for red. Fine with Punisher.
    Human Torch: competes for green and red with both

    Looking at this list I'd say the comparative analysis comes out heavily in Psylocke's favor (especially once Magneto gets changed).

    tl; dr: I think a reasonable conclusion to draw from all of this is that Punisher has a slightly higher power level (Judgment + 3 useful abilities FTW), but if you have every character in the game to choose from, Psylocke is slightly more useful and flexible. I stand by my statement that Pun is overrated at #4, but I'm ok with him being above Psylocke, maybe somewhere in the #8-9 range, below Hood, above Hulk.
  • Magneto: outstanding with Punisher. Less good with Psylocke since you need a lot more red.
    Thor/Patch/Sentry: not good with Punisher as all compete for green. Less of a problem with Psylocke's red though there is some issue with Psylocke taking a color tile from Patch, weakening TBTI.
    Daken: Great with both, maybe a bit better with Punisher since you get more strike tiles on the Molotov area damage.
    BP, Hulk: no meaningful interactions I can think of.
    OBW, Hood: about even. Psylocke's slightly cheaper costs plays a tiny bit better with AP steal; Punisher's better strike tiles play better with Espionage.
    Cap: not good with Psylocke as both compete for red. Fine with Punisher.
    Human Torch: competes for green and red with both

    May I counter with...? icon_e_wink.gif

    Thor: I don't mind using punisher with thor, if you stall out on yellow and green judgement is an excellent backup option, and retribution is a nice post-COTS cleanup on Hulk or Thor
    Patch: If you're using his green, you're using cMags anyways, and if you aren't , I think Punisher actually has the advantage here
    Sentry: Don't use Punisher with Sentry. Just... don't
    Daken, Hulk: You're generating/Matching green as much as you can, which goes great with Punisher's stellar green
    BP: Eh, Punisher's 4x crit could help out Battleplan but it's nothing to write home about. Competes with Psylocke for black though
    Hood: I actually think higher costs work better with Hood, that's why he's such a great BP/Thor buddy. Either way, I don't see anything Psylocke does with these characters being "about even" with the Monster Truck that is Judgement+Espionage, especially considering she'll tank blue with OBW
    Human Torch: Destroys Psylocke's red strike tiles. Punisher will tank Black and Green for Torch, which is good. I always want to use Torch's Red, which means paired with Psylocke I'm probably using none of her abilities, but with Punisher I might still use Punishers depending on the situation

    Also, I realize that this kind of comparison is relevant when you don't have all the characters or are asking who to level, but there's another kind of comparison, the "who do I buddy X with?" I don't think the answer to "who do I buddy Patch with" is ever going to be Punisher OR Psylocke, so isn't who has the advantage with him kind of irrelevant. But I think I would "voluntarily" buddy Punisher with a lot more characters in general - cMags, Falcon, Hulk, OBW...
  • Thanks Mischiefmaker for all 3 character rankings, it really helps out. To bad 2 big changes came out afterwards that really mess up these rankings so soon, True Healing & Character Level Shift

    OBW, She-Hulk, & Spideman healing got nerfed
    Ares, Daken, & Wolverine still have true healing
    "Old Healing Rates
    - All characters regain 12 health/minute
    - Wolverine and Daken regain 24 health/minute
    New Healing Rates
    - 2* characters regain 18 health/minute (1.5x faster)
    - 3* characters regain 24 health/minute (2x faster)
    - 4* characters regain 30 health/minute (2.5x faster)
    - Characters with significant regenerative powers: Wolverine, Daken, Spider-Man, Hulk, and She-Hulk regain health at double the rate."

    #'s for faster healers
    3. Wolverine (Patch) 48 health/min
    5. ***Daken 48 health/min
    9. Hulk 48 health/min
    18. Spider Man 48 health/min
    22. Wolverine (yellow) 36 health/min
    26. Daken 36 health/min
    31. Wolverine (X-Force) 60 health/min
    NA. She-Hulk 48 health/min

    Character level shift
    1* no change
    2* +9 levels
    3* +25 levels
    4* +40 levels

    These changes just happened today but should help make 3 star better than 2 star, while making 2 star better than 1 star characters.
    With Hulk now healing twice as fast with even more health than before his ranking should be better. Not sure if Magneto is still #1, it seems to me most people think Patch and Lazy Daken are the top 2 to play with.

    The next character rankings should just do 1 star characters, to get it out of the way, no new updates, nerfs, or new characters are planned. Then future character rankings should be just 2 & 3 star characters or a mix up every now and then.
  • Isay_Isay wrote:
    Prognostications-
    Mohawk – somewhere in the 16-20 range since her red took a hit over her 1* counterpart
    Nick Fury – 11 or 12, incredibly strong but the likelihood of seeing (let alone using) a maxed Fury is remote
    She Hulk – Low 20s, mass of HP, but (maybe) one useful ability.
    True Healing – Spiderman drops even further, Hood finally overtakes OBW

    I think She-hulk is almost directly comparable to GSBW, who is at 16th

    GSBW - for 19 AP destroy 33 tiles, do 3912 damage to team
    She-hulk - for 18 AP destroy 32 tiles, do 3288 damage to team

    Advantage GSBW -
    -many abilities generate green, none generate red
    -Tactics is way better than settlement
    -slightly more powerful nuke

    Advantage She-hulk -
    -not awful on defense
    -nuke is "split" into two uses which is significantly good
    -doesn't fight for green with all the good green chars
  • edited August 2014
    gamar wrote:
    Isay_Isay wrote:
    Prognostications-
    Mohawk – somewhere in the 16-20 range since her red took a hit over her 1* counterpart
    Nick Fury – 11 or 12, incredibly strong but the likelihood of seeing (let alone using) a maxed Fury is remote
    She Hulk – Low 20s, mass of HP, but (maybe) one useful ability.
    True Healing – Spiderman drops even further, Hood finally overtakes OBW

    I think She-hulk is almost directly comparable to GSBW, who is at 16th

    GSBW - for 19 AP destroy 33 tiles, do 3912 damage to team
    She-hulk - for 18 AP destroy 32 tiles, do 3288 damage to team

    Advantage GSBW -
    -many abilities generate green, none generate red
    -Tactics is way better than settlement
    -slightly more powerful nuke

    Advantage She-hulk -
    -not awful on defense
    -nuke is "split" into two uses which is significantly good
    -doesn't fight for green with all the good green chars

    y11/r12/blu60/p67/g10/bla52 - e4.0 - __/12/__/11/15/__ - 5075 - 5950 - Black Widow (Grey Suit) [24 health/minute] 248 minute for full recovery + down time

    y12/r60/blu67/p11/g52/bla10 - e3.0 - __/_9/_9/__/12/__ - 8700 -10200 - She Hulk (Modern) [48 health/minute] 212 minute for full recovery + down time

    She Hulk has over 1.7x the health of gsbw, heals twice as fast.

    Not sure if I just dont want to buy health packs but health level seems more important now then it use too.

    *edit* long over due edit
    GSBW is by far better than she hulk. After having she-hulk red on 5 thinking I'm going to do huge cascades with her I was wrong. Most of the time no cascades are started. If I see she hulk on another pvp team I target her last every time.
  • Isay_Isay wrote:
    Nick Fury – 11 or 12, incredibly strong but the likelihood of seeing (let alone using) a maxed Fury is remote

    Umm... No. We already have a lot of people sitting at 0/5/5. When that third cover drops, you're going to start seeing a lot more Fury in PvP, and you're going to see those who have him win an awful lot more.
  • SpoitSpoit Posts: 3,441 Chairperson of the Boards
    Isay_Isay wrote:
    Nick Fury – 11 or 12, incredibly strong but the likelihood of seeing (let alone using) a maxed Fury is remote

    Umm... No. We already have a lot of people sitting at 0/5/5. When that third cover drops, you're going to start seeing a lot more Fury in PvP, and you're going to see those who have him win an awful lot more.
    Let's be honest, how many of the people who plopped down the amount of money for 0/5/5 aren't going to be willing to spend on shields to win regardless
  • Doesn't mean he won't be one of the strongest in the game.
  • AdventfireAdventfire Age Unconfirmed Posts: 76 Match Maker
    I apologize if this is off topic or out of place but I wanted to say thanks to mischiefmaker for the character rankings. I'm new to the game and REALLY new to the forums but the rankings helped me out to see what to keep and what to build on and how much to build up to. Now I'm 12 covers in (mostly 2* & 3*) and not getting beat up in the game as much. So thank you mischiefmaker and to all those who helped with the rankings.
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