PVP Meta Counter

entrailbucket

@bbigler said:
I came across a character the other day that specifically says they aren't affected by strike tile damage, but I can't remember who. And it's not BSSM, someone 3-star or 4-star based. Has anyone tried 5-star Witch with 5-star Elektra against JuggSam?

I really don't know who that might be.

Yes, I tried SW when she was boosted. She died, a lot. It'll depend on relative levels, but her damage reduction doesn't scale fast enough to keep up with the 550s, even when she's 672.

WhiteBomber

They have to be talking about Spiderman Black, right? I don't believe there is a 3 or 4 that just negates that damage... but I am prepared to be surprised!

optimus2861

I ran the Electro / Moonstone team in Shield Sim today against a JuggSam team and it worked but with a note of caution. That being, Chasm. If he's there, you'll all but have to bring your own. Then you have to deal with the Abyss tiles which may end up blocking your winfinite, especially if the board is black dry and or TU heavy when you start.

Also, if the enemy Chasm is higher level than Juggernaut, he may tank more colors which means Jugg's AOE doesn't trigger so you don't get the free yellow. That will slow you down.

This was made even more amusing in this particular match because enemy Jugg had the implanted bomb and soon detonated.

Grantosium

@optimus2861 said:
I ran the Electro / Moonstone team in Shield Sim today against a JuggSam team and it worked but with a note of caution. That being, Chasm. If he's there, you'll all but have to bring your own. Then you have to deal with the Abyss tiles which may end up blocking your winfinite, especially if the board is black dry and or TU heavy when you start.

I've tried Moonstone, Multiple Man, Chasm a few times recently. Cart on Moonstone, Lucky on MM, Spider-Sense on Chasm. If you take a +2 all AP boost you can pretty much guarantee turn 1 win. Without it you get 3 green AP from Spider-Sense which Jamie will turn into 2 strikes tiles and 1 yellow AP. As your opponent is stunned you have a turn to try and get your yellow winfinite going from there, which is doable most times. If not finished by turn 2 must be careful not lose Play the Hero for Play the Villain.

Borstock

Every freaking team has Chasm.

LavaManLee

@Borstock said:
Every freaking team has Chasm.

Yep. You kind of have to or you are at a huge disadvantage on defense. Basically, if you have no chasm, every single time you show up in a queue in SIM, you will be targeted by those looking to finish their 50 wins or just get points in general.

ArchusMonk

@LavaManLee said:

@Borstock said:
Every freaking team has Chasm.

Yep. You kind of have to or you are at a huge disadvantage on defense. Basically, if you have no chasm, every single time you show up in a queue in SIM, you will be targeted by those looking to finish their 50 wins or just get points in general.

This is very true. When I want to farm retals, I’ll play a non-chasm team (on average I get 5-8 hits a day). When I want fewer retals, I’ll play a chasm team (on average I get 0-2 hits a day). I usually switch to chasm in the final week when I get tired of farming.

WhiteBomber

@optimus2861 said:
I ran the Electro / Moonstone team in Shield Sim today against a JuggSam team and it worked but with a note of caution. That being, Chasm. If he's there, you'll all but have to bring your own. Then you have to deal with the Abyss tiles which may end up blocking your winfinite, especially if the board is black dry and or TU heavy when you start.

Also, if the enemy Chasm is higher level than Juggernaut, he may tank more colors which means Jugg's AOE doesn't trigger so you don't get the free yellow. That will slow you down.

This was made even more amusing in this particular match because enemy Jugg had the implanted bomb and soon detonated.

Now that there is no copter or car, I think the chance of taking serious damage from that team is drastically reduced (with the counter team noted). I personally avoid using Chasm because of him clogging up the board like you mentioned.

I would change the third depending on their third, IE, if they took May in place of Sam, I would bring Colossus or similar, but I haven't had any problems with their Chasm on this team.

If you really want to avoid the initial damage, you can do so with someone else like Switch etc. rather than Chasm. You could also bring a true healer if you really wanted to save on packs.

WhiteBomber

I went to record a video against this team with ascended Blob in place of Chasm, and in a moment of absolute humility, they started the match with THREE back to back 5 of a kind and decimated me.
That'll teach me not to run Chasm...

KGB

@WhiteBomber said:
I went to record a video against this team with ascended Blob in place of Chasm, and in a moment of absolute humility, they started the match with THREE back to back 5 of a kind and decimated me.
That'll teach me not to run Chasm...

That deserves an entry in 'Your Worst MPQ Moment of the Day' thread.

KGB

WhiteBomber

@KGB said:

@WhiteBomber said:
I went to record a video against this team with ascended Blob in place of Chasm, and in a moment of absolute humility, they started the match with THREE back to back 5 of a kind and decimated me.
That'll teach me not to run Chasm...

That deserves an entry in 'Your Worst MPQ Moment of the Day' thread.

KGB

In an amazing turn of events, I left that team on defense and they just won!

Now I can post in the worst AND best moments threads!

Borstock

They should probably nerf Chasm, again, when you think about it. Once I hit a certain number in PvP Sim, he's literally on every team. Should that really be?

entrailbucket

@Borstock said:
They should probably nerf Chasm, again, when you think about it. Once I hit a certain number in PvP Sim, he's literally on every team. Should that really be?

I think the supports ban might reduce his usage (a little?)?

I'm not sure. My understanding was that he was being used to essentially get an extra turn0, so if you couldn't oneshot the whole team on your first move, you could do it on your second without taking any damage. I don't think anybody is fast enough to do that anymore though.

He also enabled turn0 wipes when he was on defense, and that one is almost definitely over after the ban.

People are probably still running/skipping him right now out of force of habit, but I'd like to see the "no cascade/defensive supports" metagame shake out a bit before I say he needs another nerf. They could also give us a real counter to stuns (like making the Moon Knight passive at 550 hit for 150k, or giving us a support that heavily punishes stuns).

WhiteBomber

He will still be everywhere, he is too good at shutting down multiple strategies and being very annoying to play against. He needs a proper counter (like the much deserved Moonknight buff).

Chasm, Red, May is (IMO) still the best all around team (also one of the easiest to obtain). Chasm, Baku / Namor I am still seeing a LOT of. I'm even seeing him in more MThor, Chi teams... I suppose that's a thing?

He is an immediate counter to cheese / turn 1 teams like Moonstone4 etc. Though that's not much of a problem without the likes of Red, Baku etc.

entrailbucket

@WhiteBomber said:
He will still be everywhere, he is too good at shutting down multiple strategies and being very annoying to play against. He needs a proper counter (like the much deserved Moonknight buff).

Chasm, Red, May is (IMO) still the best all around team (also one of the easiest to obtain). Chasm, Baku / Namor I am still seeing a LOT of. I'm even seeing him in more MThor, Chi teams... I suppose that's a thing?

He is an immediate counter to cheese / turn 1 teams like Moonstone4 etc. Though that's not much of a problem without the likes of Red, Baku etc.

I think we talked about this before, but I never saw the Omega Red/Aunt May team, ever!

My queue is Chasm/Sam/Juggernaut at 550 and has been for awhile now

Borstock

I see Chasm/Sam/Juggernaut or Namor/Chasm/M'Baku. Sometimes an Omega Red sneaks in.

I've started intentionally leaving out a defensive team that will get hit, if only because it leaves me a variety of teams to hit.

LavaManLee

@entrailbucket said:

@Borstock said:
They should probably nerf Chasm, again, when you think about it. Once I hit a certain number in PvP Sim, he's literally on every team. Should that really be?

I think the supports ban might reduce his usage (a little?)?

I'm not sure. My understanding was that he was being used to essentially get an extra turn0, so if you couldn't oneshot the whole team on your first move, you could do it on your second without taking any damage. I don't think anybody is fast enough to do that anymore though.

That extra turn is a HUGE advantage even if you can't oneshot the team. Sam/Juggs doesn't one shot. What it does very well is just keep chip, chipping away with AOE and each cheap (due to the strikes) is higher than the chip before.

Getting one extra turn in before the other team (especially in a mirror match) is the difference between winning or losing. Hence why most high teams have Chasm and if you don't have Chasm, you become hit on immediately if found in a queue.

Supports are great on Chasm but even if we go back to no supports, Chasm would still be on most teams at a high enough level.

entrailbucket

@LavaManLee said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Borstock said:
They should probably nerf Chasm, again, when you think about it. Once I hit a certain number in PvP Sim, he's literally on every team. Should that really be?

I think the supports ban might reduce his usage (a little?)?

I'm not sure. My understanding was that he was being used to essentially get an extra turn0, so if you couldn't oneshot the whole team on your first move, you could do it on your second without taking any damage. I don't think anybody is fast enough to do that anymore though.

That extra turn is a HUGE advantage even if you can't oneshot the team. Sam/Juggs doesn't one shot. What it does very well is just keep chip, chipping away with AOE and each cheap (due to the strikes) is higher than the chip before.

Getting one extra turn in before the other team (especially in a mirror match) is the difference between winning or losing. Hence why most high teams have Chasm and if you don't have Chasm, you become hit on immediately if found in a queue.

Supports are great on Chasm but even if we go back to no supports, Chasm would still be on most teams at a high enough level.

That makes a lot of sense, thanks.

I've gotten by without him because I run Riri/Coulson infinite stun combos in sim (first Kang, then 4* Carol). I eat one turn of whatever they've got, then they're stunlocked forever while Coulson's CDs take increasingly big chunks out of them.

I also only play the last day and do the whole 2000 points at once. I don't get hit a ton with that team and actually generate a fair number of wipes, although I suspect it's retreats from people who get bored of watching the AI play by itself.

So there are other options, and Chasm isn't necessarily a requirement, but I imagine most people have him and very few people have 550 Coulson/4* Carol. There's also no particular reason to level up or try out anything else.

bbigler

Ascension should bring an infinite number of viable teams in Sim. But Chasm is evidently still a little too good if every team uses him. Or we need a character / support that prevents your teammates from being stunned.

bbigler

@WhiteBomber said:
They have to be talking about Spiderman Black, right? I don't believe there is a 3 or 4 that just negates that damage... but I am prepared to be surprised!

Ha Ha! I found it ..... It's Gorr. "While Gorr has one or more Shadow Minions on the board, he takes no extra damage from enemy Strike tiles."

Plus, Gorr takes 10% less damage from enemy matches and abilities for each Shadow Minion repeater tile.

Plus Plus, Gorr has a passive that anytime the enemy places 3 or more SAPs in a turn, he will convert them all to basics, deal damage, increase his match damage and create a 2-turn CD tile that deals 3x his increased match damage!

Or if you set his black power to level 5, he can deal damage for each Shadow repeater and then either down them if below 30% health or deal 20% of their max health, ignoring protect tiles.

This is awesome! I think everyone forgot his other abilities. He's a perfect counter to JuggSam. With 5 repeaters out, he can resist 50% damage after ignoring their strike tiles. So ascended, he can tank. Then he will remove all their strikes and buff his own match damage, thus ensuring more tanking. His offense is strong as well with lots of ability damage to take down Juggs.

More notes:
He can use Tinkerer or OmniCity
His SAP conversion bypasses BRB's passive
His Black hit bypasses BRB protects too
Electro is a good partner
4-Moonstone is a good partner
Toni Ho is a good partner
Use Sanctum on heroes for yellow

Could someone with an ascended Gorr test this out? I'm also wondering how Elektra would work with Gorr's strike tile conversion.