Prevalence of MThor and could she be the target of a rebalance?
Comments
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@Bowgentle said:
You're not wrong.
But the PVE structure encourages that mindset.
People transfer that mindset to PVP, where they COULD play how they wanted to.I think a lot of people are still playing because they don't think they have a choice, whether it's just routine or sunk cost fallacy, and it creates this sort of default toxic attitude that's really awful for both the community and the game itself, by extension. Like, imagine getting more of some activity you really enjoy, and complaining that now you're required to spend more time having fun.
It's actually been that way for as long as I can remember, though. So I don't know if it's something unique about this game or if it's handed down from older to newer players like some kind of hereditary legacy.
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Yeah you can play pvp how you like. As long as:
- you don't care about getting hit
- you are playing for wins, or else you have a high developed roster which allows you to play the best meta teams and still gaining points
- you have a lot of time or you want to spend more time than the optimal teams
- you don't care about health packs not playing characters regenerating or again your roster allows you to play multiple teams.
So in other words being a part of the 3% minority.
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Good. I'm glad you two agree with each other.
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I mean everyone posting here is part of the 1%.
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I've played a plenty of competitive multiplayer games from card games to chess to a variety of computer strategy games (both turn based and RTS).
As far as I can tell MPQ has no competitive multiplayer component at all. Oh, I've read the stories some of you have posted but as far as I can tell, most of it happened years ago and what's worse, players today have no idea any of that happens or is happening nor do they have any way to participate in it.
If there was competitive multiplayer then I'd be able to directly play another human player. Or at the very least I'd be able to play against players in my bracket (there is no way EB and myself can ever play other than if he can queue me after I break MMR and then his roster is so over powered compared to mine it would be like a professional boxer having a fight with a 2 year old). Also in every competitive game I've played the last game has zero effect on my ability to compete in the next game (in other words when I finish a game of chess, in my next chess game I don't start with a wounded Queen or need to play without Rooks because mine were captured in the prior game so I have to substitute in a different piece).
PvP is simply another way to obtain rewards and nothing more with the primary difference being you always fight 3 tile movers instead of goons.
If they want to give us competitive PvP then we need some the following:
1) actual human players playing against each other
2) scaling of rosters to equality (like Balance of Power put everyone at 550)I'd love to have a PvP challenge mode where say EB and I could face off in a head to head mode with our rosters scaled to 550 so we are on an even footing. Even if it's not true head-2-head human play, it could simply be a timer where we both start at the same time against each other and first one to beat the others AI controlled team 10 times wins (so its a race, fastest to 10 wins) with the AI using your last team as it does now.
KGB
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@Bad said:
Yeah you can play pvp how you like. As long as:- you don't care about getting hit
- you are playing for wins, or else you have a high developed roster which allows you to play the best meta teams and still gaining points
- you have a lot of time or you want to spend more time than the optimal teams
- you don't care about health packs not playing characters regenerating or again your roster allows you to play multiple teams.
So in other words being a part of the 3% minority.
OR, and this is completely insane, you could just have fun playing matches with different characters and not worry about rewards or time or anything else.
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@entrailbucket said:
That guy disagreed pretty vehemently with every version of that rant I ever posted, so I'm not sure what you're even saying.You have perpetuated the mythical MPQ player who somebody else loved to claim was the go to for their arguments! But go ahead grumpy smurf! So much for you always claiming that nobody should listen to you, when we don't you get super huffy, lol!
Anyway I will go back to eating my popcorn. 😀😀😀😀😀🍿🍿🍿🍿🍿
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@Bowgentle said:
I mean everyone posting here is part of the 1%.That probably now needs even more refining to who has ascended 4*, champed 5* are old school.
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@KGB I absolutely sympathize with you here and I totally understand what you're saying.
The fun, competitive multiplayer game that is MPQ PvP is completely by accident and has nothing at all to do with the game the devs were attempting to build. I don't believe they even anticipated its existence, and I certainly don't think they could ever have created such a fun game on purpose.
They used to talk about making an alliance war mode -- the problem with that is that there's a 0% chance that the official alliance war mode would be anywhere near as fun as the one we created for ourselves. In fact, we'd probably just repurpose their alliance war mode into something more fun.
The fun here is all hidden behind 10 years of shorthand in chats, tactics, social norms, and grudges. It only exists because the MPQ devs managed to accidentally create the perfect platform for it, but none of that is documented or explained anywhere official, nor could it be.
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@DAZ0273 said:
@entrailbucket said:
That guy disagreed pretty vehemently with every version of that rant I ever posted, so I'm not sure what you're even saying.You have perpetuated the mythical MPQ player who somebody else loved to claim was the go to for their arguments! But go ahead grumpy smurf! So much for you always claiming that nobody should listen to you, when we don't you get super huffy, lol!
Anyway I will go back to eating my popcorn. 😀😀😀😀😀🍿🍿🍿🍿🍿
Ah, this again. Sorry, I'll replace every instance of "MPQ players" with "some MPQ players," to make sure everything i ever say is absolutely semantically correct. There's no way you could possibly have assumed I wasn't talking about literally every single player there.
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@entrailbucket said:
@DAZ0273 said:
@entrailbucket said:
That guy disagreed pretty vehemently with every version of that rant I ever posted, so I'm not sure what you're even saying.You have perpetuated the mythical MPQ player who somebody else loved to claim was the go to for their arguments! But go ahead grumpy smurf! So much for you always claiming that nobody should listen to you, when we don't you get super huffy, lol!
Anyway I will go back to eating my popcorn. 😀😀😀😀😀🍿🍿🍿🍿🍿
Ah, this again. Sorry, I'll replace every instance of "MPQ players" with "some MPQ players," to make sure everything i ever say is absolutely semantically correct. There's no way you could possibly have assumed I wasn't talking about literally every single player there.
You could do that or you could be the Entrailbucket I expect you to be. Y'know the one who is not only an interesting and forceful commentator on this game we all love but also not afraid to stand out from the crowd? You say (shall I find 10 examples?) we shouldn't listen to anything you say so why are you getting so upset when somebody comes along and calls you on that? You talk bollocks, according to you, so that is the level to judge no? Could it be you were, I don't know, not telling the truth or exaggerating? But go ahead and do that and what does it achieve? For the record, I think you have such a level of passion for this game that maybe you fall into a bit of a trap on these forums and I guess I do sort of enjoy yanking your chain. I am sorry. It is mean and I don't have any defense. You want to make "Fetch" happen and I am being a mean girl.
Actually I really don't have an issue with you or a dog in this fight though so harshness above I promise I don't intend to stalk you through this thread or make your Forum life difficult. Hopefully that is cool with you? Sorry if I have, somehow, managed to be the one who has jabbed you where all the rest haven't. Never meant it, nothing personal and sorry for the Hound jab.
I will 100% still probably mock you when it feels right so I understand putting me on ignore right now, you will probably not miss much beyond learning how Thor should REALLY hold a hammer!
Peace.
Nerf Thor*
*2 Thor
Now don't do it again! 😉😉😉😉
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@entrailbucket said:
@KGB I absolutely sympathize with you here and I totally understand what you're saying.The fun, competitive multiplayer game that is MPQ PvP is completely by accident and has nothing at all to do with the game the devs were attempting to build. I don't believe they even anticipated its existence, and I certainly don't think they could ever have created such a fun game on purpose.
They used to talk about making an alliance war mode -- the problem with that is that there's a 0% chance that the official alliance war mode would be anywhere near as fun as the one we created for ourselves. In fact, we'd probably just repurpose their alliance war mode into something more fun.
The fun here is all hidden behind 10 years of shorthand in chats, tactics, social norms, and grudges. It only exists because the MPQ devs managed to accidentally create the perfect platform for it, but none of that is documented or explained anywhere official, nor could it be.
Nobody holds grudges like an MPQ player.
We'd all have quit 9 years ago without LINE.2 -
@Bowgentle said:
@entrailbucket said:
@KGB I absolutely sympathize with you here and I totally understand what you're saying.The fun, competitive multiplayer game that is MPQ PvP is completely by accident and has nothing at all to do with the game the devs were attempting to build. I don't believe they even anticipated its existence, and I certainly don't think they could ever have created such a fun game on purpose.
They used to talk about making an alliance war mode -- the problem with that is that there's a 0% chance that the official alliance war mode would be anywhere near as fun as the one we created for ourselves. In fact, we'd probably just repurpose their alliance war mode into something more fun.
The fun here is all hidden behind 10 years of shorthand in chats, tactics, social norms, and grudges. It only exists because the MPQ devs managed to accidentally create the perfect platform for it, but none of that is documented or explained anywhere official, nor could it be.
Nobody holds grudges like an MPQ player.
We'd all have quit 9 years ago without LINE.Do any of the Alliances actually fight each other anyway? I have no idea.
Early MPQ is pretty hilarious in some ways to me with all the nonsense. Like that Spaceship guy and his "legal counsel" who rocked up on the boards at some point. Didn't they try and demand the Devs accept them buying breakfast or something?!?! Bonkers. They had delicious levels of delusional importance, I loved it! I miss those sort of lunatics. I guess it is sort of why I like Entrail so much with his tales of players laying siege to the developers HQ instead of them pretty much being 89% spreadsheet nerds. I regret in some ways not being able to get into the whole Line petty bollocks but at the same time maybe not, lol.
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@DAZ0273 said:
I regret in some ways not being able to get into the whole Line petty bollocks but at the same time maybe not, lol.We don't need to get into line. We can ask Granpa to tell his forbidden stories.
We sit around the bonfire listening to him attently, and sometimes another granpa is magically summoned and they talk weird misterious words.0 -
@Bad said:
@DAZ0273 said:
I regret in some ways not being able to get into the whole Line petty bollocks but at the same time maybe not, lol.We don't need to get into line. We can ask Granpa to tell his forbidden stories.
We sit around the bonfire listening to him attently, and sometimes another granpa is magically summoned and they talk weird misterious words.And with this Bad is back to being bad, lol!
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It seems like 99% of the posts on this forum come from the same 10 people.
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@bbigler said:
It seems like 99% of the posts on this forum come from the same 10 people.Yeah, I think a lot use Line/Discord to communicate but I find it much harder to follow conversations as there are no "Topic Threads" like there are here.
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@Bowgentle said:
@entrailbucket said:
@KGB I absolutely sympathize with you here and I totally understand what you're saying.The fun, competitive multiplayer game that is MPQ PvP is completely by accident and has nothing at all to do with the game the devs were attempting to build. I don't believe they even anticipated its existence, and I certainly don't think they could ever have created such a fun game on purpose.
They used to talk about making an alliance war mode -- the problem with that is that there's a 0% chance that the official alliance war mode would be anywhere near as fun as the one we created for ourselves. In fact, we'd probably just repurpose their alliance war mode into something more fun.
The fun here is all hidden behind 10 years of shorthand in chats, tactics, social norms, and grudges. It only exists because the MPQ devs managed to accidentally create the perfect platform for it, but none of that is documented or explained anywhere official, nor could it be.
Nobody holds grudges like an MPQ player.
We'd all have quit 9 years ago without LINE.So much Truth.
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I think my issue is just bad faith takes. Nerf. Don’t nerf. Who cares? Just be consistent. Daz, that was a sweet apology. I’m not as nice as you are. Is your popcorn refilled? If not do it now.
There is no wall of Thor guys…
@entrailbucket said:
I find the whole discussion kind of weird. Let's remove Thor from the equation -- I don't see her being used excessively at the moment.-
@entrailbucket said:
I'm not seeing a wall of Thors, at least not right now.Except there actually IS a wall of Thor (that changed quick)
@entrailbucket said:
95% of the teams I saw today were Thor teams. You are not in a minority among the higher-end players, at all. Everyone is only using her. Nobody is coming up either unique teams -- that's the entire point of this!-
@entrailbucket said:
That there's no diversity in the PvP metagame, AGAIN.We went directly from a wall of Chasm/Hulk to a wall of Thor/Shang-Chi. That despite rotating +100 level boosts that create tons more viable options, people prefer to use the same two characters, and refuse to even try anything else. That new characters, and buffed characters, will have no impact on the metagame and will never get looked at or even tried.
She is apparently the same as Chasm…
@entrailbucket said:
Sounds exactly like what Chasm's defenders said...But he also recognizes that there are clear differences…
@entrailbucket said:
Thor is good, and she's better than everyone else, but if you're using her for everything all the time you're at a pretty major disadvantage. It's not like Chasm where at 550 he could trivially stomp 672 boosted guys, and 672 boosted guys had trouble beating him.In a boosted metagame, unboosted Thor is a speed bump. I can boost match damage and kill her in like 2 moves. Yes, she has a chance of going off, and yes, sometimes players can beat me with her, but usually not.
Chasm was actually a problem in a boosted metagame -- relying on him to do everything for you was optimal because he was as good or better than boosted guys. Going all in on Chasm was a ticket to winning everything forever. Going all in on Thor is...not.
Thor is not a problem, guys! She’s not the best option in a given week…
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@entrailbucket said:
-boosted Kingpin is straight up just faster than Thor. I can oneshot her easily with blue boosts. His green shreds and his black will slow her to a crawl.-
@entrailbucket said:
-Boosted Kingpin is faster than Thor. I did over 100 matches in less than 2 hours yesterday, against Thor teams, using KP/1* Spidey. I have 550 Shang-Chi and Thor and wouldn't be able to do anywhere near that number with the unboosted team.-
@entrailbucket said:
I have Thor at 550 too, and the boosted characters are significantly stronger and better overall than she is, at much lower unboosted levels.But, she actually is the best option?
@entrailbucket said:
So Thor is the fastest, strongest and best character by a mile -- in fact, she's so good that you have no desire or incentive to ever use any other character on your roster, even if they've been buffed and boosted above her level.
See this, devs? Do you think that's an ok state for the game to be in? Do you think you'll be able to sell any other character while Thor is like-
@entrailbucket said:
She's the best damage character, a strong AP generator, the best anti special tile character, the best cascade generator...I don't even know what else.One of my personal favorites… a team with Shang-Chi requires no thought and is autoplay?
@entrailbucket said:
Maybe people like Thor (and particularly Thor/Shang-Chi) because the game just plays itself while you watch?Autopilot teams certainly can have a place, but they should never be more effective than teams you actually have to play.
But requires a ton of skill??
@entrailbucket said:
Shang-Chi is well known to be both slow and horrifically bad on defense, because he requires so much player skill. I have him at 550 too. He'd be much worse and much slower without Thor causing free cascades and charging tiles every turn.And apparently it’s okay to say Shang isn’t a problem because he’s horrifically bad at defense (above), but other players can’t say the same about Thor (below)…
@entrailbucket said:
So a character cannot ever be overpowered on offense? Only a defensive character can be overpowered? That's an... interesting take!There is confusion as to why people think he wants them to play the game like Just like him…
@entrailbucket said:
I still don't understand why you keep saying I want people to play the game like me, or how that invalidates everything I say.-
@entrailbucket said:
I don't think there's really any value in continuing this conversation, at this point. If the impression I'm giving is that I feel like other players are playing the game "wrong," that couldn't be further from the truth.Maybe because he is literally telling people to play, build their roster and enjoy the game the way he does??
@entrailbucket said:
And yes, it's absolutely hilarious when they take away players' overpowered toys. A bunch of people just quit! It's awesome! Don't go all in, have a backup plan, don't depend on just one or two guys.-
@entrailbucket said:
@Bad said:
Yeah you can play pvp how you like. As long as:- you don't care about getting hit
- you are playing for wins, or else you have a high developed roster which allows you to play the best meta teams and still gaining points
- you have a lot of time or you want to spend more time than the optimal teams
- you don't care about health packs not playing characters regenerating or again your roster allows you to play multiple teams.
So in other words being a part of the 3% minority.
OR, and this is completely insane, you could just have fun playing matches with different characters and not worry about rewards or time or anything else.
finally he gets defensive when people repeatedly point out how he lumps players together like Hound
@entrailbucket said:
Ah, this again. Sorry, I'll replace every instance of "MPQ players" with "some MPQ players," to make sure everything i ever say is absolutely semantically correct. There's no way you could possibly have assumed I wasn't talking about literally every single player there.Instead of taking ownership for comments like these lol
@entrailbucket said:
Nobody here plays or has played any other competitive multiplayer game, ever.-
@entrailbucket said:
Everyone is only using her. Nobody is coming up either unique teams -- that's the entire point of this!(Our bad for assuming you weren’t referring to all players. I don’t know how that could be confusing).
And before I’m accused of having no life, clearly someone who writes a character guide longer than his doctoral dissertation for the 10 people on the forums has way too much time on his hands
To be honest this isn’t even a thread about nerfing Thor. It’s a thread about EB wanting the game to be something it isn’t and wanting the devs to fix the fact that people don’t play/enjoy that game the same way he does. This is why the goal posts shift and the arguments are clearly inconsistent. Good luck with the crusade! And while the arguments are clearly different than our departed forumite, the style of argument is straight from the book of canine silhouettes.
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