New Feature - Champions 2.0 (Live with R287)

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Comments

  • LavaManLee
    LavaManLee Posts: 1,460 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2023

    But I thought Ascension was FOR the new players. How many are going to rage quit after not understanding MMR and buying overly high Ascended characters and not being able to understand PVP?

    If one previously needed a college degree before to understand MPQ, adding Ascension is like moving to graduate school.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,972 Chairperson of the Boards

    I don't understand this at all. Why SHOULDN'T a player with a lvl550 character be matched up with other, similar players? If you were a new player, would you enjoy getting repeatedly bashed over the head by players you had no chance to beat? That's what's bad for the game, not forcing players to pick on someone their own size.

    Matchmaking isn't complicated -- it's fair. New players should be protected from us, and we should have to fight each other. PvP is a competition, and if you don't like it, don't play it.

  • LavaManLee
    LavaManLee Posts: 1,460 Chairperson of the Boards

    I think the biggest issue is that MPQ (both with D3 but also BCS) don't every fully lay out what happens as you strengthen up. It is up to the myriad of Forum/Reddit/Discord to help. We (as vets) have figured it out and help each other. But I can't help "Brad from Delaware" who just started last month and is helplessly confused.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,972 Chairperson of the Boards

    @LavaManLee said:
    I think the biggest issue is that MPQ (both with D3 but also BCS) don't every fully lay out what happens as you strengthen up. It is up to the myriad of Forum/Reddit/Discord to help. We (as vets) have figured it out and help each other. But I can't help "Brad from Delaware" who just started last month and is helplessly confused.

    For one, if Brad from Delaware has a character at 550, he didn't just start last month. But again, why SHOULDN'T players of the same level be matched against each other? If he buys a 550, why would he expect to continue beating up 1* players forever?

    Let's flip it around -- I have a competitive 10-year vet's roster, with a big pile of 550s. Should I be able to take 500 points off you in PvP? Would you think that was fair? Or would you complain that I was beating up on weaker players?

    If you expect to be protected from me (and you should -- I want to fight peers, not speed bumps) why shouldn't weaker players be protected from you?

  • LavaManLee
    LavaManLee Posts: 1,460 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2023

    If you think everything is great with the communication that is provided on how to play the game, then nothing I can say can convince you otherwise.

    My belief is that this game has a serious problem with communicating how to play the game and adding Ascension does nothing to help that. Ascension, in my opinion, is going to cause more people to leave than stay.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,972 Chairperson of the Boards

    @LavaManLee said:
    If you think everything is great with the communication that is provided on how to play the game, then nothing I can say can convince you otherwise.

    My belief is that this game has a serious problem with communicating how to play the game and adding Ascension does nothing to help that. Ascension, in my opinion, is going to cause more people to leave than stay.

    There are massive communication problems in this game, and I agree that ascension is complicated and difficult to describe. You were specifically complaining about PvP matchmaking though.

    PvP matchmaking is not difficult to describe OR difficult to communicate. If your guys get stronger, you fight stronger opponents in PvP. That's the only way the game can work.

    If you're arguing that ascension will drive players away because it's complicated -- maybe? If you're arguing that ascension will drive players away because they won't be able to bash noobs in PvP -- maybe, but if so, good.

  • jsmjsmjsm00
    jsmjsmjsm00 Posts: 268 Mover and Shaker

    You get matched against players with similar top end roster to you. What is there to explain? Casual players don't care about the grind and non-casual players can be expected to know that video games match you against similar players to yourself. This idea that we need some sort of detailed explanation on how PvP works is such a manufactured problem.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    @LavaManLee said:
    I think the biggest issue is that MPQ (both with D3 but also BCS) don't every fully lay out what happens as you strengthen up. It is up to the myriad of Forum/Reddit/Discord to help. We (as vets) have figured it out and help each other. But I can't help "Brad from Delaware" who just started last month and is helplessly confused.

    For one, if Brad from Delaware has a character at 550, he didn't just start last month. But again, why SHOULDN'T players of the same level be matched against each other? If he buys a 550, why would he expect to continue beating up 1* players forever?

    Let's flip it around -- I have a competitive 10-year vet's roster, with a big pile of 550s. Should I be able to take 500 points off you in PvP? Would you think that was fair? Or would you complain that I was beating up on weaker players?

    If you expect to be protected from me (and you should -- I want to fight peers, not speed bumps) why shouldn't weaker players be protected from you?

    I mean you do take 500 off lower rosters once they're visible to you, but that's neither here nor there.

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards

    In my alliance almost all people are just asking questions and looking things out.
    Because nobody has enough dupes, iso, or hp slots.
    So I don't think this feature was exactly for new players at all, if anything for new players highly informed and highly interested.
    Motivation and interest is what actually differences players in any type of game.
    So I don't think nobody will quit out because of this. I could be wrong of course, people are individually deeper than the ocean.

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards

    3 Points:

    1. Ascension helps new players in PVE! Battles are tough in PVE when you're new. Ascension also helps new players get more CP and LT rewards, so that they can get 5* champs sooner.
    2. Ascension can certainly mess up your MMR, giving you really tough fights, so I think the devs should scale the MMR for 1/2/3 star ascended characters.
    3. The devs should also explain somewhere in the game how PVP matchmaking works so that all players understand it.

    On a side note, I'm so sick and tired of fighting Mthor in PVP! Her endless turns and cascades are really annoying, she costs me health packs and sometimes wipes my team. Yeah, yeah, I know she's been boosted this past week, but she's still really annoying! Pair her with Riri and your team gets stun locked for the whole match. I would rather fight the new Chasm or anyone else.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,972 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Bowgentle said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @LavaManLee said:
    I think the biggest issue is that MPQ (both with D3 but also BCS) don't every fully lay out what happens as you strengthen up. It is up to the myriad of Forum/Reddit/Discord to help. We (as vets) have figured it out and help each other. But I can't help "Brad from Delaware" who just started last month and is helplessly confused.

    For one, if Brad from Delaware has a character at 550, he didn't just start last month. But again, why SHOULDN'T players of the same level be matched against each other? If he buys a 550, why would he expect to continue beating up 1* players forever?

    Let's flip it around -- I have a competitive 10-year vet's roster, with a big pile of 550s. Should I be able to take 500 points off you in PvP? Would you think that was fair? Or would you complain that I was beating up on weaker players?

    If you expect to be protected from me (and you should -- I want to fight peers, not speed bumps) why shouldn't weaker players be protected from you?

    I mean you do take 500 off lower rosters once they're visible to you, but that's neither here nor there.

    Ehhh, depends how much lower. Generally if I'm attacking a non-5* player, they're worth 5 or less points to me, and they're losing 1 or 2 every time I hit them. Taking 500 points off them really isn't possible.

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,471 Chairperson of the Boards

    I would go so far as to say most "new" or junior roster or casual players, however you want to describe them, probably have no idea this feature even rolled out because nothing notable hit the game information wise to describe it. there's that vault, and the character deal in the store, but I don't recall really seeing a popup about it.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    @Bowgentle said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @LavaManLee said:
    I think the biggest issue is that MPQ (both with D3 but also BCS) don't every fully lay out what happens as you strengthen up. It is up to the myriad of Forum/Reddit/Discord to help. We (as vets) have figured it out and help each other. But I can't help "Brad from Delaware" who just started last month and is helplessly confused.

    For one, if Brad from Delaware has a character at 550, he didn't just start last month. But again, why SHOULDN'T players of the same level be matched against each other? If he buys a 550, why would he expect to continue beating up 1* players forever?

    Let's flip it around -- I have a competitive 10-year vet's roster, with a big pile of 550s. Should I be able to take 500 points off you in PvP? Would you think that was fair? Or would you complain that I was beating up on weaker players?

    If you expect to be protected from me (and you should -- I want to fight peers, not speed bumps) why shouldn't weaker players be protected from you?

    I mean you do take 500 off lower rosters once they're visible to you, but that's neither here nor there.

    Ehhh, depends how much lower. Generally if I'm attacking a non-5* player, they're worth 5 or less points to me, and they're losing 1 or 2 every time I hit them. Taking 500 points off them really isn't possible.

    Not seals, 480+ people who are shielded from you until they break MMR.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,972 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Bowgentle said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @Bowgentle said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @LavaManLee said:
    I think the biggest issue is that MPQ (both with D3 but also BCS) don't every fully lay out what happens as you strengthen up. It is up to the myriad of Forum/Reddit/Discord to help. We (as vets) have figured it out and help each other. But I can't help "Brad from Delaware" who just started last month and is helplessly confused.

    For one, if Brad from Delaware has a character at 550, he didn't just start last month. But again, why SHOULDN'T players of the same level be matched against each other? If he buys a 550, why would he expect to continue beating up 1* players forever?

    Let's flip it around -- I have a competitive 10-year vet's roster, with a big pile of 550s. Should I be able to take 500 points off you in PvP? Would you think that was fair? Or would you complain that I was beating up on weaker players?

    If you expect to be protected from me (and you should -- I want to fight peers, not speed bumps) why shouldn't weaker players be protected from you?

    I mean you do take 500 off lower rosters once they're visible to you, but that's neither here nor there.

    Ehhh, depends how much lower. Generally if I'm attacking a non-5* player, they're worth 5 or less points to me, and they're losing 1 or 2 every time I hit them. Taking 500 points off them really isn't possible.

    Not seals, 480+ people who are shielded from you until they break MMR.

    480+ people are like the top 1% of the top 1% -- they absolutely deserve to get crushed if they're up there, those players aren't really protected from me in general, and shouldn't be.

    Do you really consider someone with characters that high to be "weak" or "new?"

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards

    No, but your point was that you can't punch down - you absolutely can.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,972 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Bowgentle said:
    No, but your point was that you can't punch down - you absolutely can.

    I don't think the game (or the developers themselves) would actually consider that "punching down."

    I'm not sure I consider it punching down, half the time! Players with 480+ "meta" characters generally have no problems beating anything I can run out there.

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards

    Well, there’s a difference between beating someone using boosts and health packs and not using them. If they fight and barely win, they probably won’t fight you again.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,972 Chairperson of the Boards

    @bbigler said:
    Well, there’s a difference between beating someone using boosts and health packs and not using them. If they fight and barely win, they probably won’t fight you again.

    Nah, I'll war back and forth with these types of players all the time. I don't think they'd do that if these fights were too hard. Sometimes I barely win, myself! The difference between 550 and 480 (especially when you're talking about the stronger characters at 480) is just not that big. These are peers.

  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,994 Chairperson of the Boards

    I see both sides of this. But if Entrail is warring backing at forth, they are getting +75 points (to his +5) for their boosts and health packs which may be worth it to them. As a person running characters around that level it often is worth walking away battered to reach a higher point threshold.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,972 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Daredevil217 said:
    I see both sides of this. But if Entrail is warring backing at forth, they are getting +75 points (to his +5) for their boosts and health packs which may be worth it to them. As a person running characters around that level it often is worth walking away battered to reach a higher point threshold.

    The point is that the matchmaking algorithm prevents me from doing this sort of thing to lower-tier, new, and weak rosters. They're isolated, and they should be.

    It doesn't prevent me from doing it to the lower tier of the top 1%, nor should it -- the algorithm rightly considers those players to be my peers.

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