Upcoming Character Rebalance - Chasm (9/21/23)

KGB

Happy that they left the start of battle stun. That unique in game skill was his 2nd most important feature to me esp in PvE vs those Mindless ones, 5* Kingpin nodes and Grocket nodes.

I suspect he'll be decent on offense but very easy to manage on defense now that his revive is going to be limited to probably 1-2 times (3->5->7->9) in a non-mirror match. Especially since his AP drain is less (max 2 vs 3) so his match damage will be lower so he will tank less.

KGB

KGB

@Kolence said:
Also, hope I'm wrong, but it looks like it's possible that mirror match Chasms can still stay stuck, permanently undying...

No chance of that given the Abyss tile requirement goes 3->5->7->9->. With 30% max health on a revive will take crazy cascades to get 20+ abyss tiles needed for a revive after a few deaths. It's guaranteed to stop after 30ish revives since there is a max of 64 tiles.

KGB

KGB

@entrailbucket said:

@nycjonny said:

@entrailbucket said:

@nycjonny said:

@entrailbucket said:
I don't think this is enough, but we waited this long, so I guess it is what it is.

It reads like enough. Every power weakened. Revive threshold higher each time. Match damage down. Ap steal down. Don’t see what more they could do.

Kill the stun. Kill passive AP drain completely -- replace that ability with something else.

I appreciate that they reduced each power by a bit, but I'd have given him a more thorough rework that removed his problematic stuff (rather than reducing it) and added strength in some less problematic area.

They did mess with the ap drain. If they took away the stun too really what is left? This is a hefty nerf. People will realize that when it’s live in game.

No, I'd have taken away the stun and AP drain completely and given him something else instead. Like I get that they're going for a theme or whatever, but both of those powers shouldn't ever exist.

For a guy who repeatedly advocates for lots of micro changes (buffs or nerfs) to characters vs massive over hauls this is a surprising take. They've done more than a micro change but they haven't gone for a massive overhaul like they did in the past when the nerfed characters into oblivion.

KGB

entrailbucket

@KGB said:

@entrailbucket said:

@nycjonny said:

@entrailbucket said:

@nycjonny said:

@entrailbucket said:
I don't think this is enough, but we waited this long, so I guess it is what it is.

It reads like enough. Every power weakened. Revive threshold higher each time. Match damage down. Ap steal down. Don’t see what more they could do.

Kill the stun. Kill passive AP drain completely -- replace that ability with something else.

I appreciate that they reduced each power by a bit, but I'd have given him a more thorough rework that removed his problematic stuff (rather than reducing it) and added strength in some less problematic area.

They did mess with the ap drain. If they took away the stun too really what is left? This is a hefty nerf. People will realize that when it’s live in game.

No, I'd have taken away the stun and AP drain completely and given him something else instead. Like I get that they're going for a theme or whatever, but both of those powers shouldn't ever exist.

For a guy who repeatedly advocates for lots of micro changes (buffs or nerfs) to characters vs massive over hauls this is a surprising take. They've done more than a micro change but they haven't gone for a massive overhaul like they did in the past when the nerfed characters into oblivion.

KGB

There's no way to micro change a stun like that...it can't become a half turn stun, it's either 1 or 0. If he's keeping it, they really need to update all the "on first turn" passives to be "on your first turn."

Nowhere am I suggesting that he be nerfed into oblivion. I'm saying they should have replaced the problematic stuff with other, less problematic stuff. Take away the passive stun, give him an active stun! (Or something similar)

IrisRyu

I love that Chasm’s nerf is being timed to coincide with his next boost week! I was not looking forward to the Class of 2022 PVP, but this should make for a much more interesting event.

nycjonny

@IrisRyu said:
I love that Chasm’s nerf is being timed to coincide with his next boost week! I was not looking forward to the Class of 2022 PVP, but this should make for a much more interesting event.

Class of 2022 has no ihulk. But does have Jane and riri. He was not going to be much of an issue there.

KGB

@entrailbucket said:

@KGB said:

@entrailbucket said:

@nycjonny said:

@entrailbucket said:

@nycjonny said:

@entrailbucket said:
I don't think this is enough, but we waited this long, so I guess it is what it is.

It reads like enough. Every power weakened. Revive threshold higher each time. Match damage down. Ap steal down. Don’t see what more they could do.

Kill the stun. Kill passive AP drain completely -- replace that ability with something else.

I appreciate that they reduced each power by a bit, but I'd have given him a more thorough rework that removed his problematic stuff (rather than reducing it) and added strength in some less problematic area.

They did mess with the ap drain. If they took away the stun too really what is left? This is a hefty nerf. People will realize that when it’s live in game.

No, I'd have taken away the stun and AP drain completely and given him something else instead. Like I get that they're going for a theme or whatever, but both of those powers shouldn't ever exist.

For a guy who repeatedly advocates for lots of micro changes (buffs or nerfs) to characters vs massive over hauls this is a surprising take. They've done more than a micro change but they haven't gone for a massive overhaul like they did in the past when the nerfed characters into oblivion.

KGB

There's no way to micro change a stun like that...it can't become a half turn stun, it's either 1 or 0. If he's keeping it, they really need to update all the "on first turn" passives to be "on your first turn."

Nowhere am I suggesting that he be nerfed into oblivion. I'm saying they should have replaced the problematic stuff with other, less problematic stuff. Take away the passive stun, give him an active stun! (Or something similar)

What's the problem with the stun? Yes, it neuters a few characters like Grocket/BrB etc but if you are looking for a rock/paper/scissors solution when facing those characters, he provides it.

If the rest of his kit falls in line so he's not OP against every other team via the AP steal/infinite revive then he should be just fine. I imagine now that Omega Red + Booster teams won't have near as much problem with Chasm teams because the infinite revive is gone so if you see Chasm that team will take him out just as a Chasm team is geared toward neutering BRB/Grocket/other teams with first turn powers.

KGB

entrailbucket

Stealing the first turn just violates the general design direction of the game, imo. I've had games where I lost without being able to move the board at all (a cascade against 550 Chasm/Hulk/Colossus in sim) and that should never happen. It takes away player agency.

I also don't think they ever intended that power to stop all the first-turn passives, and currently it invalidates way too much stuff -- powers of all different types. Look at Elektra's passive, and how much worse that is than Chasm just shutting everything down.

Kolence

@KGB said:

@Kolence said:
Also, hope I'm wrong, but it looks like it's possible that mirror match Chasms can still stay stuck, permanently undying...

No chance of that given the Abyss tile requirement goes 3->5->7->9->. With 30% max health on a revive will take crazy cascades to get 20+ abyss tiles needed for a revive after a few deaths. It's guaranteed to stop after 30ish revives since there is a max of 64 tiles.

KGB

No no. I meant when Chasms heal so much they never die at all. A big Chasm with a tiny Hulk keeps tanking no matter how many times the Hulk died (Hulk has a cap on match damage buff). And a board filled with webs and abyss tiles keeps Chasms pretty much full health.

killahKlown

Ouch

I look forward to the Chasm, Wasp, Gwenom store

KGB

@Kolence said:

@KGB said:

@Kolence said:
Also, hope I'm wrong, but it looks like it's possible that mirror match Chasms can still stay stuck, permanently undying...

No chance of that given the Abyss tile requirement goes 3->5->7->9->. With 30% max health on a revive will take crazy cascades to get 20+ abyss tiles needed for a revive after a few deaths. It's guaranteed to stop after 30ish revives since there is a max of 64 tiles.

KGB

No no. I meant when Chasms heal so much they never die at all. A big Chasm with a tiny Hulk keeps tanking no matter how many times the Hulk died (Hulk has a cap on match damage buff). And a board filled with webs and abyss tiles keeps Chasms pretty much full health.

Now I see what you mean.

Well given he only makes 1 web tile now instead of 2 I would imagine it means that instead of the board being 50/50 web and abyss tiles it will be 2/3 abyss and 1/3 web tiles. Whether that's enough to down another Chasm if you target web tiles to deny them to the enemy remains to be seen.

KGB

Bad

At last! This character took the joy to play pvp from me.
After sooo much time they finally acknowledged their mistake.
However there is still the heavy deterrent of losing a lot of health on the first turn stolen, no matter if his match damage has been reduced a bit.

KGB

@entrailbucket said:
Stealing the first turn just violates the general design direction of the game, imo. I've had games where I lost without being able to move the board at all (a cascade against 550 Chasm/Hulk/Colossus in sim) and that should never happen. It takes away player agency.

I also don't think they ever intended that power to stop all the first-turn passives, and currently it invalidates way too much stuff -- powers of all different types. Look at Elektra's passive, and how much worse that is than Chasm just shutting everything down.

@entrailbucket said:
Stealing the first turn just violates the general design direction of the game, imo. I've had games where I lost without being able to move the board at all (a cascade against 550 Chasm/Hulk/Colossus in sim) and that should never happen. It takes away player agency.

I also don't think they ever intended that power to stop all the first-turn passives, and currently it invalidates way too much stuff -- powers of all different types. Look at Elektra's passive, and how much worse that is than Chasm just shutting everything down.

While I love moving first as much as the next guy, it's basically the equivalent of always playing White in Chess. Not sure why the original game designers decided that players should always move first (the original Puzzle Quest for example you earned first move privileges based on your characters skills so sometimes you would not move first). I think everyone has PTSD from a year plus of Chasm going first. If he goes from always being there to occasionally being there I don't think players will mind near as much.

I find his passive to be invaluable in CL10 PvE nodes.

KGB

DrClever

@GrimSkald said:
I wish they removed the "stops first turn abilities" from the stun

Yes, I still think that if they made them first active turn abilities we'd have a lot of options to crowd Chasm off the board and then we mightn't care so much about nerfing the rest of his abilities.

Seph1roth5

It feels like the people that are completely happy with this (hopefully first draft) chasm are the ones that hated and despised him, and would be happy if he made you lose iso when you won a match using him.

Other people, even the ones that thought he needed a nerf, for the most part, think he's being hit a bit too hard with the nerf bat.

entrailbucket

@KGB said:

@entrailbucket said:
Stealing the first turn just violates the general design direction of the game, imo. I've had games where I lost without being able to move the board at all (a cascade against 550 Chasm/Hulk/Colossus in sim) and that should never happen. It takes away player agency.

I also don't think they ever intended that power to stop all the first-turn passives, and currently it invalidates way too much stuff -- powers of all different types. Look at Elektra's passive, and how much worse that is than Chasm just shutting everything down.

@entrailbucket said:
Stealing the first turn just violates the general design direction of the game, imo. I've had games where I lost without being able to move the board at all (a cascade against 550 Chasm/Hulk/Colossus in sim) and that should never happen. It takes away player agency.

I also don't think they ever intended that power to stop all the first-turn passives, and currently it invalidates way too much stuff -- powers of all different types. Look at Elektra's passive, and how much worse that is than Chasm just shutting everything down.

While I love moving first as much as the next guy, it's basically the equivalent of always playing White in Chess. Not sure why the original game designers decided that players should always move first (the original Puzzle Quest for example you earned first move privileges based on your characters skills so sometimes you would not move first). I think everyone has PTSD from a year plus of Chasm going first. If he goes from always being there to occasionally being there I don't think players will mind near as much.

I find his passive to be invaluable in CL10 PvE nodes.

KGB

I don't know why we always move first, but we do, we always have, and it's important. Taking it away every match is extremely powerful, especially because it completely turns off a pile of really strong powers. Always going second is one of the reasons that the AI is so weak, and a stronger AI means a different game.

You'd have a much easier time in CL10 PvE if you leveled up your characters. I don't believe you're playing the game as designed, so I don't think they should consider these kinds of issues. I can't say I've ever had a problem dealing with the puny strike tiles that mindless ones drop.

DrClever

@entrailbucket said:
I also don't think they ever intended that power to stop all the first-turn passives, and currently it invalidates way too much stuff -- powers of all different types.

Yep, that's my guess too. I use it against mindless ones etc but I wish it didn't happen.

I like the first turn stun though.

Gymp28

Looks like a pretty comprehensive but not overly heavy handed nerf. I feel they’ve justifiably taken a long time over this one and it appears on paper to have paid off.
Personally I’m really glad they’ve kept his flavour intact by not completely overhauling him.
I look forward to seeing if this makes him a better partner for Gwenom! (Because he’s not stealing so much friendly AP)

Borstock

I don't think he's dead-dead, because there's still defensive value in stealing turns and in a simple revive, but this is a very comprehensive nerf. Not the way I would've gone, but very effective at wiping him out as a threat.

Punisher5784

The changes look fair. They could have changed his first turn stun to be a percentage (50% at 3 covers; 75% at 4; 100% at 5), but I agree it's the most unique ability.