Which 4* of the NEW ones do you use regularly?

fractalvisions

I don't even have Cosmo rostered yet. The others are fully covered but not yet champed. Perhaps that's part of the issue here? Those with the ISO to champ the latest 4* are well into 5* land and so don't care about using them? Although I admit that I'm in no rush to champ them in order to use them. Like many others, Deathlok is probably the most recent 4* that I've used reasonably often.

DAZ0273

I haven't champed Cosmo yet as I don't have any saved covers for rewards but through a combination of luck and effort I was able to cover him in record time for a 4*, less than a week. Torch is also unchamped but fully covered, the rest are all champed. I have messed around with Colleen and Clea in DDQ and I like them, I just can't find any use for them beyond messing around and essentials. It is the curse of the 5* player but also the gift of the 5* player in that you can have it both ways but only to an extent.

Deathlok on the other hand is in my Kang clearing team as my Hawkeye is OK but not as good/reliable at current cover levels.

pepitedechocolat

Human Torch (Anhilus)

@fractalvisions said:
I don't even have Cosmo rostered yet. The others are fully covered but not yet champed. Perhaps that's part of the issue here? Those with the ISO to champ the latest 4* are well into 5* land and so don't care about using them? Although I admit that I'm in no rush to champ them in order to use them. Like many others, Deathlok is probably the most recent 4* that I've used reasonably often.

Yep, most people with iso are far in 5* land and cannot use 4* in meaningful ways. Most people in 4* land are so much in iso drought they have to choose carefully and will go for strong established 4*, and once they got them they will start hoarding for 5*.
5* godboost makes sure that a 1 cover 5* can dispatch most 4* team.

That creates a situation where the 4* meta is not very researched and will probably never be unless players get real incentives to do so. Actually I see a few rosters that skip 4* and go straight from 3* to softcapped 5* with almost no 4* .

I think this is also true to some extend to 3* land, I'm pretty sure very few people are actually bothering evaluating new 3* strengths and synergys, they are just one more entry in the pokedex that will yield champ levels.

DAZ0273

Even back before boosted 5's and the shard economy, etc, 4* land was always a strange place because of the dilution. We had vaulting which was probably the best thing ever for 4* players trying to champ new ones at that time but which upset older players as they lost access to certain 4* they were pursuing. Of course whereas everybody else got R4G, Medusa, Vulture etc I seem to remember ending up with Wasp (pre-buff), Mordo (pre-buff) and Luke. But I was an outlier!

I don't think it would harm the game all that much at this point if a mechanism was put in place where you could select say 10 nominated Classic 4* and you got greater odds at getting them from packs. Sure I appreciate that 5* players could use this for champ rewards but is that really a big deal? It would allow 4* players to build out their rosters if they wanted targeting specific 4*, especially an an extra path to getting certain 5* characters.

fractalvisions

I'd say the 4* meta is very well researched. It's Polaris and friends.

@DAZ0273 said:
I don't think it would harm the game all that much at this point if a mechanism was put in place where you could select say 10 nominated Classic 4* and you got greater odds at getting them from packs. Sure I appreciate that 5* players could use this for champ rewards but is that really a big deal? It would allow 4* players to build out their rosters if they wanted targeting specific 4*, especially an an extra path to getting certain 5* characters.

Would this really be significantly different from the current favourite system to make it worthwhile?

DAZ0273

@fractalvisions said:
I'd say the 4* meta is very well researched. It's Polaris and friends.

@DAZ0273 said:
I don't think it would harm the game all that much at this point if a mechanism was put in place where you could select say 10 nominated Classic 4* and you got greater odds at getting them from packs. Sure I appreciate that 5* players could use this for champ rewards but is that really a big deal? It would allow 4* players to build out their rosters if they wanted targeting specific 4*, especially an an extra path to getting certain 5* characters.

Would this really be significantly different from the current favourite system to make it worthwhile?

Well if you have both working at the same time then I would think so? Every pull you make in a relevant store you get your shards, your shard multiplier chance and an enhanced chance at getting one of the 4* you have selected for improved odds in any draw you make that gives a 4*.

Think of how the new 3* are much easier to cover (apart from Jeff!!) as a sort of example of what I mean but rather than for a limited period you can keep updating your pick 10 options.

ThaRoadWarrior

It kind of feels like returning to Latest 12 would do it, and then you favorite anyone outside that bubble you like, but there are SO many 4* characters at this point, the "answer" might be to split them into different stores. I'm not really sure I like that idea based on my full-dilution roster building style personally, but I've seen that in other match-3 games with characters, so it does seem to work for others.

entrailbucket

If there was a Latest 12, would that really change anything at all? Everybody would just favorite the same old guys they did before (Polaris + whoever) and continue ignoring everyone else, new or old.

The problem is that the tier is so crazy unbalanced -- once you get Polaris and Friends you can completely ignore everyone else. Even if Cosmo or M'Baku is really good, they're not better than your Polaris combo so there's zero reason to ever use them.

Bowgentle

@entrailbucket said:
If there was a Latest 12, would that really change anything at all? Everybody would just favorite the same old guys they did before (Polaris + whoever) and continue ignoring everyone else, new or old.

The problem is that the tier is so crazy unbalanced -- once you get Polaris and Friends you can completely ignore everyone else. Even if Cosmo or M'Baku is really good, they're not better than your Polaris combo so there's zero reason to ever use them.

Also, there's like 800 characters in the tier.
It makes sense to concentrate on the strongest 2 and ignore the rest.

entrailbucket

It'd actually be a fantastic situation for new players if we got somebody about as strong as Polaris, like, every 3 months or so. They wouldn't have to chase someone that's a million years old, and they could easily cover a character who'd help them make the transition.

Isn't it...odd...that she's a 1 of 1 and nobody else has ever approached that level? They keep releasing counters and partners for her, but nobody who can act as an engine on their own.

pepitedechocolat

Human Torch (Anhilus)

@entrailbucket said:
If there was a Latest 12, would that really change anything at all? Everybody would just favorite the same old guys they did before (Polaris + whoever) and continue ignoring everyone else, new or old.

The problem is that the tier is so crazy unbalanced -- once you get Polaris and Friends you can completely ignore everyone else. Even if Cosmo or M'Baku is really good, they're not better than your Polaris combo so there's zero reason to ever use them.

if you speak pvp, deathlok riri wasp is stronger than Polaris+anything 4* (swap riri with kang once u reach 5* and you good to go almost till 6*). Besides if you put a polaris as def team in pvp you will get zeroed fast.
In pve rocket/jugg/polaris is among the fastest but Polaris is more a third wheel in this. Swapping her with a gotg makes usually faster, but less consistent, clear.

So yeah polaris is good and versatile, which makes her an easy pick, however one can fully play in 4* tier without her and without being miserable.

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:
If there was a Latest 12, would that really change anything at all? Everybody would just favorite the same old guys they did before (Polaris + whoever) and continue ignoring everyone else, new or old.

The problem is that the tier is so crazy unbalanced -- once you get Polaris and Friends you can completely ignore everyone else. Even if Cosmo or M'Baku is really good, they're not better than your Polaris combo so there's zero reason to ever use them.

It would also help you get 5* by being able to target 4s who spit out 5* covers. Is it a perfect idea? Of course not. But at this stage what is really left to do to a tier that has coming up on 140 characters with new releases still happening? Some players do like to roster all so it might help those sort of players in giving them other incentives to play and build beyond just zoom past the finish line. Maybe not. Not everything has to be about Polaris.

KGB

@entrailbucket said:
It'd actually be a fantastic situation for new players if we got somebody about as strong as Polaris, like, every 3 months or so. They wouldn't have to chase someone that's a million years old, and they could easily cover a character who'd help them make the transition.

Isn't it...odd...that she's a 1 of 1 and nobody else has ever approached that level? They keep releasing counters and partners for her, but nobody who can act as an engine on their own.

I continue to believe this is by design. By having only a few needed characters for 4 star land it lets new players push through this tier ASAP (or at least to where they can do CL10 PvE).

Literally everything they do is about pushing players into 5 star land ASAP. Look at how much the bonus hero change helps. It's now 100x more likely you'll get 500 shards (a full cover) from any LT pull. Add that to the covers from the boss events, all the feeders and double feeders etc and every change is designed to get players into the 5 star tier ASAP.

Eventually it will get to the point where they award a 5 star cover (or something close to it) daily in DDQ.

KGB

entrailbucket

But if there was another character, like Polaris, who could act as an engine, players would only have to chase one of them. If their goal is to let players push through the tier quickly, why wouldn't they create as many paths as possible? Creating an alternative path wouldn't make it harder at all.

Alfje17

Only use 4* in DDQ, their required nodes or their PvP and even then I haven't used any of these so far.

KGB

@entrailbucket said:
But if there was another character, like Polaris, who could act as an engine, players would only have to chase one of them. If their goal is to let players push through the tier quickly, why wouldn't they create as many paths as possible? Creating an alternative path wouldn't make it harder at all.

Because I think the reason Polaris was released as she is no longer exists so they haven't made another similar character.

Polaris was the answer to the answer to a problem that should have been fixed in the 1st place.

Remember back when Kitty was first released? It didn't take long before she and Grocket formed a meta team that was calling for her Nerf and everyone else to try and obtain BSSM to avoid her boosted strike damage (Thorkoye players not withstanding). Kitty and Grocket were especially problematic in 4 star land where there was no counter or avoiding her 5 star boosting of his tiles and every character released then was looked to see if they could help against that team.

1) What should have happened is her boost should have been adjusted so that it boosted SAPs made by lesser tier characters to a lesser degree. So she could have boosted 5 star SAPs by her full amount but say everyone else's tiles by say 25% of that amount so she would have been in line with future 4 star boosters like Nico.

Anyway after a lot of clamoring by players for a nerf they didn't want to do (because this team was super useful in PvE, sound familiar), they finally realized they need to release a character like BSSM in the 4 star tier. What they released was Juggs with his 90% immunity. His release effective ended the reign of terror that was Kitty/Grocket in 4 star PvP. Of course he also got released with his thematic AOE. That led to the next 4 star meta terror that was all about Juggs AOE boosted by Grockets strikes.

2) What should have happened is his AOE should not have been boostable by anything, not Strikes not by Okoyes boost etc so that it was just a fixed amount of manageable damage.

Once again players called for a nerf to Juggs (or Grocket) or a counter and again they avoided the nerf. Again, they finally realized they needed a character who did power damage (to hurt Juggs) but that it had to be passive because Juggs passive was wreaking havoc if you took too long to collect AP for a nuke or stun. Thus Polaris's passive was born to counter Juggs along with the stun needed so he could be match damaged and to stop his AOE. She self fueled by making more SAPs for her passive and every time one was matched/destroyed her damage passive went off. Voila, Juggs disappeared from PvP over night replaced by Polaris/Grocket (later BrB after he was released).

3) What should have happened is they should have either limited her damage passive to fire only 1 or 2 times max per turn. Or they should have changed her tile placing passive to only place 1 time at the end of the turn instead of placing mid cascade which leads to cascades of death where her damage and tile passives happen countless times. Or they could have done both.

So Polaris was created to counter Juggs who was created to counter Kitty. Each one more over powered than the last. Since then they've smartly avoided making an even stronger counter and went with specific counters that are useful for only 1 thing (dealing with her). And for those asking for a nerf, remember they resisted nerfing Kitty because she and Grocket were so relied upon in PvE just as Polaris is now relied upon in PvE.

KGB

entrailbucket

@KGB well all of that certainly makes a lot of sense, and I've seen similar at the 5* tier, so it absolutely tracks with the kind of stuff that Demiurge used to do -- jumping through bizarre hoops to avoid doing nerfs, even if a nerf would've been much less work and had a much better result.

So now I have a different question, I guess. If Polaris wasn't designed specifically to be an on-ramp to the 5* tier (and I never believed she was), but she's taken on that role, why haven't the developers recognized that and created any other character who could fill that role?

(My theory? One that's supported by a significant amount of evidence over the years? They don't know how. They'd create another one if they could, but they don't really know what they're doing.)

Bowgentle

@entrailbucket said:
@KGB well all of that certainly makes a lot of sense, and I've seen similar at the 5* tier, so it absolutely tracks with the kind of stuff that Demiurge used to do -- jumping through bizarre hoops to avoid doing nerfs, even if a nerf would've been much less work and had a much better result.

So now I have a different question, I guess. If Polaris wasn't designed specifically to be an on-ramp to the 5* tier (and I never believed she was), but she's taken on that role, why haven't the developers recognized that and created any other character who could fill that role?

(My theory? One that's supported by a significant amount of evidence over the years? They don't know how. They'd create another one if they could, but they don't really know what they're doing.)

Infinite monkeys throwing infinite darts?
Shame that the one guy who believed that the devs (all of them, Demi,BCS, next guys) have had a plan all these years is gone.

DAZ0273

Here was the plan:

Guys - Anniversary is coming up and we got X-Men back! Let's do Gambit and make him real nice!

Short time later

Great job on Gambit but uhm...well it looks like we are going to have to fire you for making Gambit TOO good. So, the rest of you: fix him!

A bit later

I said fix him, not making him better??!?!? What the hell are yo...oh we fired the guy who understood his coding? Ah...

Finally

I think we all agree that we hate Gambit a lot now so just do whatever the hell you like. Right, onto our future characters...Bishop, GREAT choice, I always liked him, make him real nice!

ThaRoadWarrior

Is that timeline right? Surely there were year(s) between that Kitty/Rocket moment and Polaris coming out. the back was broken on that combo at the 4* tier well before polaris/juggernaut were in the mix by Sabretooth if no one else. There were a string of ineffective counters for sure though, like Kraven, Dazzler, Main Event Hulk, and even God Emperor Doom who had to die to clear the board of SAPs, which is wild that sacrificing a 5* to hamstring a 4* was considered viable.