Kamar-Taj support

Bowgentle

If their fix for Chasm in PVP are supports you have to buy, I'll be very disappointed.

Scofie

@Codex said:
Let try bring this conversation back on topic.

Based on this one new support, what are ppl thoughts on directions of supports.

This support seems awfully targeted. I wonder if they will make an ap denial support, for when Kang or cheap ap spammers like riri enters essential nodes against teams. I also think a stun at the start of battle support could be useful.

I also don't know how to feel about the limited choice pool for Kamar taj. To me this means more time spent on creating new supports if the character choice pool is small.

I am also hoping to see PvP only supports or some sort of rotation so that we don't get one team dominating. I also think the supports that generate ap at the start of battle should have that ability disabled in PvP. Otherwise Riri/mThor shenanigans.

Anyway those are just my thoughts.

Thanks for bringing us back on track! I think the value of supports to me is providing a bit of in-tier balance so you can still use your favourite fun characters without feeling at a disadvantage. Of course it is all relative, so if I get a small time boost, others will too, but if I don't have to struggle for 5 mins on a tough match because I didn't bring a meta team for the 7th month in a row, then it feels like a win. And of course finding synergy in 3 characters and 3 supports opens up a whole load of fun and opportunity.

So I'm all for more supports, niche or not, because variety is good. I'd really like a better way of tracking them in game, though. Trying to remember the effects of almost 400 things is difficult.

dianetics

Back on topic...to me it looks like they are preparing to allow for supports to be used in PvP, at least on offense. This support has little value outside PvP.

So, if that is the case how do they balance that overall? We currently cannot upgrade or improve our own supports in any meaningful way. All players are at the mercy of RNG for improving them.

Supports have the least amounts of pulls per month of any token class by far, and there is no upgrade strategy. So unless there is an upgrade strategy RNG will be deciding who gets the best boost/bonus for PvP.

Bowgentle

Would be nice to get an answer for sure.
Hopefully this will not be a Demiurge-style thread 5 minutes before everyone leaves the office, with nobody around to answer follow-up questions.

Scofie

@dianetics said:
Back on topic...to me it looks like they are preparing to allow for supports to be used in PvP, at least on offense. This support has little value outside PvP.

So, if that is the case how do they balance that overall? We currently cannot upgrade or improve our own supports in any meaningful way. All players are at the mercy of RNG for improving them.

Supports have the least amounts of pulls per month of any token class by far, and there is no upgrade strategy. So unless there is an upgrade strategy RNG will be deciding who gets the best boost/bonus for PvP.

The availability of support tokens is massively at odds with their current value. I'd suggest either 1) a power balance, a large increase in availability and use in offense in PvP, or 2) huge power increase across the board, limited to PvE.

HoundofShadow

Behaving like spoilt kids ≠ giving constructive feedbacks
Dictating that the dev should do A before doing B, followed by throwing tantrum ≠ giving constructive feedbacks

Supports for pvps should also be activated on defense for the AIs as well. The AI is already dumb and activating supports for only offense is as good as playing against Sentries.

Imagine bringing Wong equipped with Karma-Taj /Electro against Chasm/iHulk, and you are pounding them with ease on offense. However, Chasm/iHulk teams equipped with supports are beating your Wong/Electro team with ease because the dev disabled supports for your team on defense. In essence, players are going to see more defensive lossed if Supports are activated only on offense.

Bowgentle

I don't want to see supports in pvp, ever.
Only on offense means you'll get hit A LOT more than now.

Scofie

@HoundofShadow said:
Behaving like spoilt kids ≠ giving constructive feedbacks
Dictating that the dev should do A before doing B, followed by throwing tantrum ≠ giving constructive feedbacks

Except nobody was doing those things. That's hyperbole. And we've moved the conversation on.

Scofie

Supports for pvps should also be activated on defense for the AIs as well. The AI is already dumb and activating supports for only offense is as good as playing against Sentries.

Imagine bringing Wong equipped with Karma-Taj /Electro against Chasm/iHulk, and you are pounding them with ease on offense. However, Chasm/iHulk teams equipped with supports are beating your Wong/Electro team with ease because the dev disabled supports for your team on defense. In essence, players are going to see more defensive lossed if Supports are activated only on offense.

I've no problem with the constant retals personally, but I'm not much of a PvP player. I read somewhere that the excitement of PvP was the cat and mouse game of climbing, dodging retals, shielding etc. Do supports in PvP not add anything in that space?

Bowgentle

@Scofie said:

Supports for pvps should also be activated on defense for the AIs as well. The AI is already dumb and activating supports for only offense is as good as playing against Sentries.

Imagine bringing Wong equipped with Karma-Taj /Electro against Chasm/iHulk, and you are pounding them with ease on offense. However, Chasm/iHulk teams equipped with supports are beating your Wong/Electro team with ease because the dev disabled supports for your team on defense. In essence, players are going to see more defensive lossed if Supports are activated only on offense.

I've no problem with the constant retals personally, but I'm not much of a PvP player. I read somewhere that the excitement of PvP was the cat and mouse game of climbing, dodging retals, shielding etc. Do supports in PvP not add anything in that space?

There's S2 and S5 players who enjoy that.
The rest of us sticks to our boring easy 1200.
Oh hey, congrats on that promotion

Scofie

Thanks!

Yepyep

@Scofie said:
I've no problem with the constant retals personally, but I'm not much of a PvP player. I read somewhere that the excitement of PvP was the cat and mouse game of climbing, dodging retals, shielding etc. Do supports in PvP not add anything in that space?

It isn't known at this stage because supports haven't ever been used in PvP. But it's safe to say that introducing them, particularly if only unilaterally on offense, would upend the game in a way that cannot be overstated. Personally, I think it would kill the PvP game. There might be some resurrection later, but it would be killed in the short term.

Supports magnify the power of characters that can use them, primarily by (1) accelerating their ability to fire powers with AP gains but also by (2)(i) altering match damage thereby (ii) changing who tanks, (3) increasing critical tile damage, (4) special tile creation and destruction + fortification, and (5) increasing damage dealt to foes or certain classes of them. There are some healing powers, too, but mostly supports' utility is on offense. (Kamar-Taj adds an interesting defensive power that could make a big difference against certain enemies. We'll see how that operates sometime soon. Maybe.)

Anyway, while defense is nice, MPQ is based on offense and speed. PvP at least as much as PvE. So anything that increases offensive power, and therefore speed, will benefit the strongest rosters and whatever meta is happening at the time. At the same time, though, supports in PvP will eviscerate whatever defensive comfort there is to be found in characters like Colossus (great against match damage while opponent is gathering AP but then highly vulnerable to powers) or Chasm (vulnerable to AoE and successively-fired powers), just to pick two premier defensive toons.

So people will be loath to hop. Powerful rosters will muscle their way to progression (because when you enter a match with, say, 12 yellow and several black AP, it's going to be over soon against the AI) and then shield and stay shielded -- because it will be too risky to hop (just think in terms of Shang-Chi armed with Quantum Realm and a red battery always out there hunting...). And they will probably do that climb later in events to minimize spending HP on shields. There will be even more clogging because nobody will hop much other than to reset. There will be a big mass of 38-point teams in the 600-800-point range with little chance to break through to 900-1,000 for mid-sized rosters.

So, yes, supports would profoundly alter the cat-and-mouse game but not by adding to it but by killing it. That's my view, anyway. Perhaps I'm missing out on potential positives, though, so I'd love to hear others' views on it.

EDITED the last paragraph to clarify my point.

HoundofShadow

If you want an even playing field, ask the dev to implement balance of power on every single pvps. This is the true even playing field. Imagine 2* or 3* players beating 5* players with 2/3 teams.

HoundofShadow

As you can see, balance/even playing field is subjective. 2/3 players are always complaining how they are being matched against players with 5* rosters, with zero chance to fight back. With BoP, they will be able to hit those 5* players back using their 550 1* to 3* characters. Then we have baby champed 5* being unhappy about 550 players beating them up. BoP evens the field by allowing players of all tiers to be on an even playing field, using 550 roster against 550 rosters.

I expect the dev to announce changes to mmr calculation in pvps after they announce the rollout of supports. I'm also expecting loaner supports in pvps.

Bowgentle

BOP evens nothing because it's still the same MMR.
We're just all using 4* teams.
None of your precious straw low level players can see us.
And you KNOW that.
And my god stop switching topics for ONCE in your life.

HoundofShadow

Switching topics is common in this forum. Even you do it frequently.

dianetics

Balance is not subjective. Each tier has different power budgets.

You are being disingenuous right now.
There is no 1* team that is competing with 4 or 5 star teams in BoP. There is also no 2 or 3 star team competing.
4* has the fattest roster and the widest array of characters....................and Polaris.

If BoP ran right now Chasm would own it. There is no 1, 2, or 3 that would even stand a chance. Suggesting anything different is the same as biting the nose to spite the face.

Skindo

If they allow supports to be used in PvP only on offense, I think I will benefit. But that is because I am a 4* with a weak roster who only cares about getting the 25 win rewards. Using supports might get me to start pushing for 50 wins (if clears are faster and I don't need to dodge as many opponents & use as many health packs). But even though it is good for me now, it seems like a bad idea in general. It seems like it is good for those who want to play pvp for progression only and bad for those who want to play it competitively, which seems backwards. I would also be disincentivized from playing pvp for placement because I don't have great supports, so I probably would not climb as fast as those who do.

If they allow it on offense and defense, I worry my 25 wins may be much tougher to get given my limited supports. Then I would be disincentivized from playing pvp at all.

If (and I really hope this does not happen) they add resurrecting enemies to PVE, I really hope their health gets cut WAY down.

liminal_lad

Are we going to get an answer on this? I have been very vocal in my support of the new devs, but it would be great to get some clarity while the offer is still up.

Yepyep

The problem with K-T is that it is so limited. Currently, there are 5 chars that can use it: 3/5 Stranges, Mordo, Wong, and Shang-Chi. It seems pretty useless.

I hope their plans for supports aren't along the lines of planning to make scores of them, each highly restricted by affiliation, and potentially "support roster slots" creating further limitations (not to mention revenue opportunities). Doing this would make it easier to introduce to PvP because it would, in time, create the potential for highly differentiated team builds in an increasingly, um, Balkanized? player base where a small percentage of players have all supports. Kind of like now with the 5* game but with an added layer concentrating power even further.