Kamar-Taj support

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  • Tony_Foot
    Tony_Foot Posts: 1,705 Chairperson of the Boards

    @HoundofShadow said:
    Making mountain out of molehill has been happening since Demiurge's days. I'm waiting for you guys to take over the management of MPQ so that everything runs perfectly. We have expert coders, persuaders, communicators, project managers etc in this forum. It's a shame that the rest of the playerbase can't have you guys in the development team. :/

    At this point I’m convinced you’re bored and just want to argue black is white. I’m not happy the next iPad Pro is rumoured to be £1600. So I need to go and take Tim Cooks job to voice my dissatisfaction politely. I mean why did Man United players ever listen to Alex Ferguson, he was a **** footballer.

    You don’t need to do a role to politely offer your views on a topic. I take it you don’t ever complain about any politics ever without being prime minister or president.

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards

    Well, about the people from kamar taj who make sure a character downed is out of the fight, starting the S&CTM (speculations and crazy thoughts machine) :

    • they are planning to release a new pve with revivers goons (5% probability)
    • they are planning to run another time EotS and chahulk will be in all CNs (1% prob)
    • they are planning to run a new pve mode where all characters can revive (1% p)
    • there will be special pvps where supports can be used (43% p)
    • they are planning to release more reviving characters and also supports will be used in pvp (50% p)

    By the way, as always BCS looks a bit clumpsy, but if it's something really relevant it will be available for buying again, or it will be available throught special rewards, imo.

  • Codex
    Codex Posts: 214 Tile Toppler

    Let try bring this conversation back on topic.

    Based on this one new support, what are ppl thoughts on directions of supports.

    This support seems awfully targeted. I wonder if they will make an ap denial support, for when Kang or cheap ap spammers like riri enters essential nodes against teams. I also think a stun at the start of battle support could be useful.

    I also don't know how to feel about the limited choice pool for Kamar taj. To me this means more time spent on creating new supports if the character choice pool is small.

    I am also hoping to see PvP only supports or some sort of rotation so that we don't get one team dominating. I also think the supports that generate ap at the start of battle should have that ability disabled in PvP. Otherwise Riri/mThor shenanigans.

    Anyway those are just my thoughts.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards

    If their fix for Chasm in PVP are supports you have to buy, I'll be very disappointed.

  • Scofie
    Scofie GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,127 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Codex said:
    Let try bring this conversation back on topic.

    Based on this one new support, what are ppl thoughts on directions of supports.

    This support seems awfully targeted. I wonder if they will make an ap denial support, for when Kang or cheap ap spammers like riri enters essential nodes against teams. I also think a stun at the start of battle support could be useful.

    I also don't know how to feel about the limited choice pool for Kamar taj. To me this means more time spent on creating new supports if the character choice pool is small.

    I am also hoping to see PvP only supports or some sort of rotation so that we don't get one team dominating. I also think the supports that generate ap at the start of battle should have that ability disabled in PvP. Otherwise Riri/mThor shenanigans.

    Anyway those are just my thoughts.

    Thanks for bringing us back on track! I think the value of supports to me is providing a bit of in-tier balance so you can still use your favourite fun characters without feeling at a disadvantage. Of course it is all relative, so if I get a small time boost, others will too, but if I don't have to struggle for 5 mins on a tough match because I didn't bring a meta team for the 7th month in a row, then it feels like a win. And of course finding synergy in 3 characters and 3 supports opens up a whole load of fun and opportunity.

    So I'm all for more supports, niche or not, because variety is good. I'd really like a better way of tracking them in game, though. Trying to remember the effects of almost 400 things is difficult.

  • dianetics
    dianetics Posts: 1,395 Chairperson of the Boards

    Back on topic...to me it looks like they are preparing to allow for supports to be used in PvP, at least on offense. This support has little value outside PvP.

    So, if that is the case how do they balance that overall? We currently cannot upgrade or improve our own supports in any meaningful way. All players are at the mercy of RNG for improving them.

    Supports have the least amounts of pulls per month of any token class by far, and there is no upgrade strategy. So unless there is an upgrade strategy RNG will be deciding who gets the best boost/bonus for PvP.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards

    Would be nice to get an answer for sure.
    Hopefully this will not be a Demiurge-style thread 5 minutes before everyone leaves the office, with nobody around to answer follow-up questions.

  • Scofie
    Scofie GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,127 Chairperson of the Boards

    @dianetics said:
    Back on topic...to me it looks like they are preparing to allow for supports to be used in PvP, at least on offense. This support has little value outside PvP.

    So, if that is the case how do they balance that overall? We currently cannot upgrade or improve our own supports in any meaningful way. All players are at the mercy of RNG for improving them.

    Supports have the least amounts of pulls per month of any token class by far, and there is no upgrade strategy. So unless there is an upgrade strategy RNG will be deciding who gets the best boost/bonus for PvP.

    The availability of support tokens is massively at odds with their current value. I'd suggest either 1) a power balance, a large increase in availability and use in offense in PvP, or 2) huge power increase across the board, limited to PvE.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    Behaving like spoilt kids ≠ giving constructive feedbacks
    Dictating that the dev should do A before doing B, followed by throwing tantrum ≠ giving constructive feedbacks

    Supports for pvps should also be activated on defense for the AIs as well. The AI is already dumb and activating supports for only offense is as good as playing against Sentries.

    Imagine bringing Wong equipped with Karma-Taj /Electro against Chasm/iHulk, and you are pounding them with ease on offense. However, Chasm/iHulk teams equipped with supports are beating your Wong/Electro team with ease because the dev disabled supports for your team on defense. In essence, players are going to see more defensive lossed if Supports are activated only on offense.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards

    I don't want to see supports in pvp, ever.
    Only on offense means you'll get hit A LOT more than now.

  • Scofie
    Scofie GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,127 Chairperson of the Boards

    Supports for pvps should also be activated on defense for the AIs as well. The AI is already dumb and activating supports for only offense is as good as playing against Sentries.

    Imagine bringing Wong equipped with Karma-Taj /Electro against Chasm/iHulk, and you are pounding them with ease on offense. However, Chasm/iHulk teams equipped with supports are beating your Wong/Electro team with ease because the dev disabled supports for your team on defense. In essence, players are going to see more defensive lossed if Supports are activated only on offense.

    I've no problem with the constant retals personally, but I'm not much of a PvP player. I read somewhere that the excitement of PvP was the cat and mouse game of climbing, dodging retals, shielding etc. Do supports in PvP not add anything in that space?

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2023

    @Scofie said:

    Supports for pvps should also be activated on defense for the AIs as well. The AI is already dumb and activating supports for only offense is as good as playing against Sentries.

    Imagine bringing Wong equipped with Karma-Taj /Electro against Chasm/iHulk, and you are pounding them with ease on offense. However, Chasm/iHulk teams equipped with supports are beating your Wong/Electro team with ease because the dev disabled supports for your team on defense. In essence, players are going to see more defensive lossed if Supports are activated only on offense.

    I've no problem with the constant retals personally, but I'm not much of a PvP player. I read somewhere that the excitement of PvP was the cat and mouse game of climbing, dodging retals, shielding etc. Do supports in PvP not add anything in that space?

    There's S2 and S5 players who enjoy that.
    The rest of us sticks to our boring easy 1200.
    Oh hey, congrats on that promotion :)

  • Scofie
    Scofie GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,127 Chairperson of the Boards

    Thanks!

  • Yepyep
    Yepyep Posts: 952 Critical Contributor
    edited March 2023

    @Scofie said:
    I've no problem with the constant retals personally, but I'm not much of a PvP player. I read somewhere that the excitement of PvP was the cat and mouse game of climbing, dodging retals, shielding etc. Do supports in PvP not add anything in that space?

    It isn't known at this stage because supports haven't ever been used in PvP. But it's safe to say that introducing them, particularly if only unilaterally on offense, would upend the game in a way that cannot be overstated. Personally, I think it would kill the PvP game. There might be some resurrection later, but it would be killed in the short term.

    Supports magnify the power of characters that can use them, primarily by (1) accelerating their ability to fire powers with AP gains but also by (2)(i) altering match damage thereby (ii) changing who tanks, (3) increasing critical tile damage, (4) special tile creation and destruction + fortification, and (5) increasing damage dealt to foes or certain classes of them. There are some healing powers, too, but mostly supports' utility is on offense. (Kamar-Taj adds an interesting defensive power that could make a big difference against certain enemies. We'll see how that operates sometime soon. Maybe.)

    Anyway, while defense is nice, MPQ is based on offense and speed. PvP at least as much as PvE. So anything that increases offensive power, and therefore speed, will benefit the strongest rosters and whatever meta is happening at the time. At the same time, though, supports in PvP will eviscerate whatever defensive comfort there is to be found in characters like Colossus (great against match damage while opponent is gathering AP but then highly vulnerable to powers) or Chasm (vulnerable to AoE and successively-fired powers), just to pick two premier defensive toons.

    So people will be loath to hop. Powerful rosters will muscle their way to progression (because when you enter a match with, say, 12 yellow and several black AP, it's going to be over soon against the AI) and then shield and stay shielded -- because it will be too risky to hop (just think in terms of Shang-Chi armed with Quantum Realm and a red battery always out there hunting...). And they will probably do that climb later in events to minimize spending HP on shields. There will be even more clogging because nobody will hop much other than to reset. There will be a big mass of 38-point teams in the 600-800-point range with little chance to break through to 900-1,000 for mid-sized rosters.

    So, yes, supports would profoundly alter the cat-and-mouse game but not by adding to it but by killing it. That's my view, anyway. Perhaps I'm missing out on potential positives, though, so I'd love to hear others' views on it.

    EDITED the last paragraph to clarify my point.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    If you want an even playing field, ask the dev to implement balance of power on every single pvps. This is the true even playing field. Imagine 2* or 3* players beating 5* players with 2/3 teams.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2023

    As you can see, balance/even playing field is subjective. 2/3 players are always complaining how they are being matched against players with 5* rosters, with zero chance to fight back. With BoP, they will be able to hit those 5* players back using their 550 1* to 3* characters. Then we have baby champed 5* being unhappy about 550 players beating them up. BoP evens the field by allowing players of all tiers to be on an even playing field, using 550 roster against 550 rosters.

    I expect the dev to announce changes to mmr calculation in pvps after they announce the rollout of supports. I'm also expecting loaner supports in pvps.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2023

    BOP evens nothing because it's still the same MMR.
    We're just all using 4* teams.
    None of your precious straw low level players can see us.
    And you KNOW that.
    And my god stop switching topics for ONCE in your life.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    Switching topics is common in this forum. Even you do it frequently. o:)

  • dianetics
    dianetics Posts: 1,395 Chairperson of the Boards

    Balance is not subjective. Each tier has different power budgets.

    You are being disingenuous right now.
    There is no 1* team that is competing with 4 or 5 star teams in BoP. There is also no 2 or 3 star team competing.
    4* has the fattest roster and the widest array of characters....................and Polaris.

    If BoP ran right now Chasm would own it. There is no 1, 2, or 3 that would even stand a chance. Suggesting anything different is the same as biting the nose to spite the face.