Developers response

HoundofShadow

24k match-3? After firing her blue?

froggerjohn

@DevpoolMPQ_BCS said:
While Magik's current numbers are much more in line with the norm for 5* characters, if she needs a bump she'll get it.

The big problem with this logic, is that 'the norm' for 5* characters is that most of them rarely if ever get used. So when you adjust a new character to be in line with that, you're effectively saying, "Here's a new char that you also won't ever use."

Three huge changes have been introduced since the creation of most of these 5stars:

• boosted 5s in PvP
• SCL10
• Chasm/iHulk

The first two are essentially the same, drastically raising the enemy health pools to the point where non-meta characters (even boosted) are just too slow against them. We most definitely need characters capable of fast, crazy damage output (well above the current 'average') to deal with this, or we'll keep using Shang and the other metas.

The Chasm/iHulk situation is a bit different. They dominate PvP through survival, and annoyance factor. People use them because they WIN, but I'd wager that a large number of players don't actually enjoy using them, since the mechanics are slow and not particularly 'fun' to play. Getting past this point needs both good alternative characters that players would prefer using, as well as a complete counter against Hulkasm. Wanda removed the Hulkoye dominance overnight, because she not only counters them, but punishes the opponent for using them by reflecting that damage back. That's what we need to similarly deal with Hulkasm.

Suggestions:

• Restore at least half of the damage you removed from Magik. The goal should be "Wow, she's awesome!", as long as it doesn't create a huge problem to beat her in PvP.
• Balance new characters (and reworks of old chars) to the metas, and not to the 'average' bench-warmers.
• Don't be afraid of crazy damage, if it's narrowly-focused. Case in point, and this is kind of a guess, but I suspect Kang purple has some huge numbers against goons that spam high-count CDs. Which sounds delightful. We can use more of that, and would allow for variety of play when we get those specific scenarios.
• Create someone that reflects and punishes something about Chasm's abilities. Kang actually looks really good for eliminating the downsides of fighting against Chasm, but doesn't take that extra step of, "If you use Chasm against me, it's going to hurt."

IrisRyu

@HoundofShadow said:
24k match-3? After firing her blue?

Not to derail the topic too much further, but, yes, after firing her blue based on Balancing Act boost numbers. I suspect her stats would go higher with a featured boost.

HoundofShadow

I remember players concerned about power creep. Now, they want power creep to go full steam after seeing Magik getting nerfed. Do players want to use 1-2 healthpacks against non meta characters in pvps that much in the future? People want to eat 24-40k damage every 2 turns or so against non-meta characters?

Multiply by ~2.5 for 450 to 569 to get the number.

IrisRyu

You have played against a 550 Chasm, right? 24-40k is a good turn.

HoundofShadow

Yes, I've. I meant taking 24k-40k damage every turn or 2 against non-meta characters in the future. I mean, it seems like players want power creep to go up a few notches faster. Some players have calculated that Magik's repeaters could be dealing 60k-100k damage every 2 turns, "pre-nerf".

thedarkphoenix

I just want to chime in @DevpoolMPQ_BCS y'all are doing a great job. This is just a situation of people thinking they were getting a light saber, and instead got a katana they both cut but one is much deadlier and cooler. So don't let it stop y'all doing what y'all doing. The game and 5's have been much more enjoyable since y'all started taking chances and expanding abilities.

There will always be a sub section of people that's made about what's currently meta.

IrisRyu

Got it; I’m following. Those numbers as per turn base damage across all 5*’s (even if recalculated to apply to ability damage instead of match) would be pretty crazy. I’m not sure I’m advocating for that, but I agree with FroggerJohn’s post.

entrailbucket

If one 5* has that much damage potential then they all should -- or you can introduce a downside to offset a character's higher potential. Maybe they're slow, or they require more match-3 skill to be effective.

This isn't that complicated. The problem is that in general, the best MPQ characters do the most damage, passively, are the fastest, and have no other significant downsides. The bad characters do low damage, have active powers, are slow, and require tons of management to do anything. Someone shouldn't be the best at everything.

Nobody really wants power creep to go faster, but power creep should be even. When they release a really strong character and then the next several are mid-tier or lower, it makes those characters look much worse than they actually are.

HoundofShadow

The dev has shared their design philosphy last year in the monthly Q&A. I'm not sure why players still insists they make every other characters boring (huge damage while using minimum effort).

Here's their reply from June 2022 Q&A:

"Answer - Clearly there isn't one way to play MPQ, and it's always fun to see how the community utilizes the roster. With the sheer number of characters in circulation (and with so many more on the way), the possibilities are endless. That said, it is clear that there are dominant strategies, compositions, and play patterns (which you've pointed out). We're always looking for ways to keep the game fresh, and continuously building characters that feed into the current meta or play patterns is a recipe for something stale. Internally we talk about a "rock-paper-scissors" design philosophy in which one type of play is particularly effective against another.

Since the announcement of developer change, many have speculated nerfs to restrict and control the prevalence of highly popular and wildly successful characters and teams. Rather than focus our attention there, we are looking to the next wave of characters that can usher in new ways of playing and change the way we all think about the roster. The goal isn't to create characters that lean into any one style of play. Some players enjoy the more passive and efficient nature of certain compositions. Others like to pull off more nuanced victories with big setups and bigger payoffs.

When designing and building characters, there are many factors involved. Marvel characters have rich histories, exciting futures, and real connections with fans. A character's abilities need to exemplify what it means to be that character while also achieving a voice and value in the game. We believe that synergies are one of the most important aspects of play and we want to see more of them; after all, what really makes a team a TEAM is how well they all work together! In addition to exploring more synergistic possibilities through abilities, we're also taking into consideration what supports, affiliations, and other mechanisms can do to make team composition and experimentation an even more enjoyable and fulfilling experience.

As for AP costs, actives versus passive abilities, and the frequency by which abilities can be used (or passives triggered), it is always case by case based on balance and the intent of the design."

One of their goals is to create characters that cater to different groups of players. Just because group A doesn't like certain playstyle doesn't meant the entire playerbase dislike them as well, or just because some characters is dead to you doesn't mean that it's dead to the entire playerbase.

WilliamK1983

Just ditch Chasm's ap drain. If not for that, the immortals are just another team imo.

froggerjohn

@HoundofShadow said:
Yes, I've. I meant taking 24k-40k damage every turn or 2 against non-meta characters in the future. I mean, it seems like players want power creep to go up a few notches faster. Some players have calculated that Magik's repeaters could be dealing 60k-100k damage every 2 turns, "pre-nerf".

We already have power creep, with characters like Shang, MThor, and [for different reasons] Chasm.

There are limited paths to continue forwards from here:
1. Nerf ALL of the top-level characters to bring them in line with the rest
2. Make new characters balanced similar to the non-meta characters, avoiding more creep
3. Try to create (and rework) more characters similar in strength to the current meta

1 is a mass rage-quit scenario.

2 is what the Magik nerf, and the dev's response, feels like it aligns to, and the end result is more characters that we don't really use because the meta is better. If the previous numbers really were 100K every two turns, that seems pretty darned reasonable (and still below Shang levels) when your opponents are 200-300K+.

3, for better or worse (and the creep does admittedly create some 'worse'), is still the best option because in order to add variety to the mix, we need to get alternatives that are as good or better than what we already have. If it creeps again, so be it, and deal with the results with the next set of releases. At least it still shifts the usable set of characters, and that's better than stagnation.

The new devs have demonstrated that they are willing and able to shake things up a bit, and that's a wonderful thing for the health of the game. PvP is currently not healthy, so it's time for some of that risk that they have shown the bravery to accept. I'm hoping that they can achieve meta-or-betta results, but in ways that are more restricted or focused into specific conditions. The end result being that we use different teams against different scenarios.

There's already some of that, of course. But Chasm killed a bunch of it (especially in Sim), and we need some bold efforts to recover from it.

entrailbucket

Well said, and don't forget -- we have a weekly rotating group of 4 characters that gets +100 levels that week. The boost should naturally create a metagame that changes every week. The boosted guys should be better than everyone else that week.

In this metagame that doesn't happen though. The top tier characters aren't just a little bit better than everyone else, they're like +150 levels better than everyone else. When lvl450 characters are trivially taking down lvl600 or greater characters, that's a problem.

Of course they can never achieve 100% balance(and no one wants that anyway, that's a straw man argument) -- some characters will always be better or worse, or fit different styles. But having these huge, canyon-sized gaps between different characters' power levels is completely unjustifiable. They should at least be close.

HoundofShadow

For point 2, you need to prove that the majority of players want to use meta. The dev has said before that players in the forum/reddit think differently from other group of players, and some notable cases is Dr Strange/OML appearing in Fan Favourite stores. Meta focused players were unhappy with this and they couldn't believe they made it into the store.

While all the min-max, Line/competitive players like to think that each new release should be powerful and deal tons of damage, it doesn't mean majority of the playerbase want that to happen or it's healthy for the game.

For point 3, the implication of this is that gameplay would be boring when all newer releases are dishing out 60-100k easily without effort as time goes by. Strategy/puzzle would almost be non-existent. The point is not everyone wants every ability to hit hard and finish matches quickly. Some enjoy the process of building things up.

The second implication is that players would be spending healthpacks, and many hate using 1-2 of them after each match. The average 5* hp in the game is ~80k for 450. Boosted, it's about 200k or so. If Magik is dealing 60-100k every 2 turns unboosted, she'll be dealing 130k to 250k unboosted. She's going to wipe out non-boosted 5* characters with ease. And if veteran players want to see this power creep continue to go up, new players would be unhappy. Non-5* Players in reddit are already unhappy with the high match damage taken from 5/boosted 5 in pvps, and if dealing such high amount of damage is a norm, even more of them will quit playing pvps. Players need to understand MPQ doesn't revolve around only 5* players. There are implications to other tiers of players.

fight4thedream

For someone who prides themselves on using strategy to win against iHulk/Chasm, I am a bit surprised by your arguments, @HoundofShadow.

There are a lot of issues to unpack here but first I think it would be helpful if you can clarify this claim of 60-100k damage. Specifically, how many demon tiles she would have needed to achieve these numbers and factor in the number of matches it would take for her to reach that level of damage.

I only ask for clarity because it sounds like you are basing your argument on this being a given certainty from turn 1, ignoring the uncertainties of board state RNG and the necessary amount of demon tiles needed to achieve that number. Against non-Chasm teams, she will generate one demon tile at the beginning of the match. I'll grant that with red being a very common color for active abilities and the AI not being programmed to avoid matching her tile, it will help speed up the process. But would it be any faster than a capable player using Shang-Chi? Or someone using iHulk/Okoye or Apoc/BRB?

So I think it's important you show us your thought process on how quickly this power stacking was going to work and how it compares to other high offensive teams.

Equally important is the question of available counters. I won't deny she brings a lot more fire power than the majority of the 5* tier. But she is hard countered by the two top stars of PvP: Chasm and Mighty Thor. Chasm will not only deny her initial demon passive but will also make it difficult for her to collect the AP to place demon tiles. Mighty Thor will destroy all of her repeaters:

I can already think of a variety of available good hard counter teams:

1. Chasm/iHulk
2. Chasm/Colossus
3. Mighty Thor/Riri
4. Mighty Thor/Colossus
5. Mighty Thor/Shang-Chi
6. Mighty Thor/Iceman
7. Colossus/Wanda

A player could also probably use the fight fire with fire approach and use:

8. Okoye/iHulk
9. Apoc/BRB
10. Apoc/Wanda

and just down her first to avoid her passive damage from stacking.

So I ask you, how easy will it be for her to reach her damage cap against an established meta that hard counters her?

What I find perplexing about your argument is your claim that new players would be unhappy with her. Wouldn't new players be the most likely to benefit from her initial strong power set considering they are the least likely to have older, less powerful 5* characters so they would be able to compete even when dealing with the various weekly boosts? Of course that also depends on whether their MMR will give them non-Chasm teams or Mighty Thor teams.

Isn't that one of the main purposes of power creep? To ensure that newer players don't feel overwhelmed and have a chance to participate in events without feeling they are far behind established veteran rosters?

You say that strategy/puzzle would be non-existent but I think it's quite clear the tools to counter her already exist and a significant portion of those players playing in 5* MMR pools have access to those tools. There already exists several strategies to mitigate her potential damage threat.

The real question is how well will she fare in a meta that is already stacked against her. She will cut through non-meta teams with ease, this I don't deny. But meta teams are already doing that so I am baffled why this became an issue for her release.

And I would have thought you of all people would have relished the challenge of facing a supposedly tough character. But it seems I was mistaken.

HoundofShadow

I paired her up with Emma, and Emma's ability stacks with her ability. First, this is the mathematical equation to calculate her Limbo Demon damage, when paired with Emma:

70+15+(2 * no of red aps) + (70+15+(2 * no of red aps)*no of limbo tiles * 25%)

"Pre-nerf", the Demon tiles were dealing 25% extra damage and it was dealing 5692 damage. I've played with her for about 10 rounds and 7 is the magic number for the typical number of Limbo Demon her board. Typically, hitting 10 red ap is normal. Using these 2 numbers, each of her repeater will be dealing:

5692 * 105% from Emma + ((25%x7)*105%
= 5692 x 463% bonus damage
= 26k damage
With 7 tiles, she would be dealing 182k damage every 2 turns. All these damage is "pre-nerf", and it's based on 450 Magik.

As for how quickly she can create those 7 tiles, it depends on who you pair her with. Even if your 550 Okoye has 30 tu right at the start of the game, it's an additional 85680 damage every turn or 171,360 every 2 turn. And I'm comparing the damage output for 550 Okoye against 450 Magik. 550 Magik would be dealing 364k damage every 2 turns.

3/4 players are always complaining about facing 5* characters, and with Emma/Magik pairing, it will be much worse because they would either wipe or eat 2-3 healthpacks. 3/4 players don't have the kind of experience that we have. So, while Magik might not seem like a problem for us, it is for them.

As for her being a challenging opponent, she is much more easier to deal with than Chasm, and I wouldn't call her a tough opponent. Players have an automatic winrate of about 90% against non-meta team AIs. And it's good you can come up with so many counters against Magik.I believe this is the kind of healthy meta many are looking forward to post-Chasm.
I mean, there's only one counter against Chasm/iHulk and it's mirror match. The last thing many want to see is only 1-2 counter teams against her, that will also cause them to eat healthpacks.

Rod5

@DevpoolMPQ_BCS said:
@justsing I certainly wouldn’t say Chasm teams have gone extinct; far from it. Chasm is a character folks have invested some power into and these new answers are warming up for many. If they don’t do the trick we’ll likely pull the trigger on a revive cap nerf or something similar. We don’t consider it a done deal by any means.

Feel free to pull that trigger any time you like. Now would suit most people

Glockoma

@Rod5 said:

@DevpoolMPQ_BCS said:
@justsing I certainly wouldn’t say Chasm teams have gone extinct; far from it. Chasm is a character folks have invested some power into and these new answers are warming up for many. If they don’t do the trick we’ll likely pull the trigger on a revive cap nerf or something similar. We don’t consider it a done deal by any means.

Feel free to pull that trigger any time you like. Now would suit most people

I would even say they should take the entirety of “aggressive passives” that have turned the game into one continuous, broken feedback loop and dial them way back. You would see a lot of the active-powered characters rise up and these rebalances/low-tier characters actually become viable.

Give a “before we took over, characters were already game-breaking” speech, (looking at you Okoye) and set the trajectory of future characters to be successful in their own right instead of balancing out a previous character’s OP passive with another passive.

I know this isn’t a popular take, but pvp specifically is a bear. Once it’s done, it’s done and the game might actually shore up one of its many shortcomings.

fight4thedream

@HoundofShadow said:
I paired her up with Emma, and Emma's ability stacks with her ability. First, this is the mathematical equation to calculate her Limbo Demon damage, when paired with Emma:

70+15+(2 * no of red aps) + (70+15+(2 * no of red aps)*no of limbo tiles * 25%)

"Pre-nerf", the Demon tiles were dealing 25% extra damage and it was dealing 5692 damage. I've played with her for about 10 rounds and 7 is the magic number for the typical number of Limbo Demon her board. Typically, hitting 10 red ap is normal. Using these 2 numbers, each of her repeater will be dealing:

5692 * 105% from Emma + ((25%x7)*105%
= 5692 x 463% bonus damage
= 26k damage
With 7 tiles, she would be dealing 182k damage every 2 turns. All these damage is "pre-nerf", and it's based on 450 Magik.

As for how quickly she can create those 7 tiles, it depends on who you pair her with. Even if your 550 Okoye has 30 tu right at the start of the game, it's an additional 85680 damage every turn or 171,360 every 2 turn. And I'm comparing the damage output for 550 Okoye against 450 Magik. 550 Magik would be dealing 364k damage every 2 turns.

3/4 players are always complaining about facing 5* characters, and with Emma/Magik pairing, it will be much worse because they would either wipe or eat 2-3 healthpacks. 3/4 players don't have the kind of experience that we have. So, while Magik might not seem like a problem for us, it is for them.

As for her being a challenging opponent, she is much more easier to deal with than Chasm, and I wouldn't call her a tough opponent. Players have an automatic winrate of about 90% against non-meta team AIs. And it's good you can come up with so many counters against Magik.I believe this is the kind of healthy meta many are looking forward to post-Chasm.
I mean, there's only one counter against Chasm/iHulk and it's mirror match. The last thing many want to see is only 1-2 counter teams against her, that will also cause them to eat healthpacks.

Thank you for taking the time to explain this. I appreciate it!