Request for Training Mode

HoundofShadow

@shardwick Do you really have to be glued to that one word? I merely left out some words and you are biting on the "punch and deals 30-40% of max health" mistake. Look,  anyone who plays fighting game decently knows that you don't do individual punch when there's opening. You punch and do combo. That's why fighting game typically have training mode to train your skills and muscle memories. If you are still going to nitpick about me missing some words and not understand the main concepts between the difference of a match-3 and fighting game, then so be it. 

@Daredevil217 buying car is a 5-6 figures sum of investment. Of course, they let you try it out and please you as much as possible because they want you to buy the car and earn commission. In MPQ it's different. The people here are sensitive to spending a lot. If the dev let you try out a fully champed 5* Jane Foster for free for 3 days and then sell 1500 shards of hers for 99.99 usd, would you guys buy it? Or would you whale for her HP store after trying? Of course not. You guys would rather wait for her to enter LTs or her special store to champ her. Most of you won't touch highly priced cash bundles.

And I like to emphasise, I mention major change without tradeoff. Over the years, the dev and ex-dev have given players items for free without tradeoffs. It has happened many times. The kind of change I'm thinking is shards vs bonus heroes as an example. There were tradeoffs. Other example would be the UI change a few years back. However, it affected steam players and they were not happy about it.

shardwick

HoundofShadow said:

@shardwick Do you really have to be glued to that one word? I merely left out some words and you are biting on the "punch and deals 30-40% of max health" mistake. Look,  anyone who plays fighting game decently knows that you don't do individual punch when there's opening. You punch and do combo. That's why fighting game typically have training mode to train your skills and muscle memories. If you are still going to nitpick about me missing some words and not understand the main concepts between the difference of a match-3 and fighting game, then so be it. 

@Daredevil217 buying car is a 5-6 figures sum of investment. Of course, they let you try it out and please you as much as possible because they want you to buy the car and earn commission. In MPQ it's different. The people here are sensitive to spending a lot. If the dev let you try out a fully champed 5* Jane Foster for free for 3 days and then sell 1500 shards of hers for 99.99 usd, would you guys buy it? Or would you whale for her HP store after trying? Of course not. You guys would rather wait for her to enter LTs or her special store to champ her. Most of you won't touch highly priced cash bundles.

And I like to emphasise, I mention major change without tradeoff. Over the years, the dev and ex-dev have given players items for free without tradeoffs. It has happened many times. The kind of change I'm thinking is shards vs bonus heroes as an example. There were tradeoffs. Other example would be the UI change a few years back. However, it affected steam players and they were not happy about it.

You don't like that I focused on punch? Ok. Most special moves don't do 40% of damage either. The only way that you can get there is with a powered up special meter and that usually takes most of the round or hell even sometimes the entire match to build up for something truly devastating, or through a big combo, you know kinda like what Shang Chi does which takes strategy. And Switch is her own parrying system. 

HoundofShadow

@shardwick The main point is, we don't need the kind of reflex and muscle memories that fighting games need. On top of that, our AI is dumb. That's why I don't see a need for training mode. As I mentioned, if our AI is smart as good human players, I'm fine with training mode. Because (new) players would be able to see how AI teams play smartly on defense for pvps or for other purposes. As of now, our AI can't do that intelligently. It follows specific orders: firing powers from left most colour to the right most colour etc. Players don't do that.

As far as testing for synergies is concerned, as long as you don't have strange criteria like not wanting to use healthpacks or what not, you can test it anywhere in pves you want (since I think your training mode is restricted to players' rosters.) Winning matches in MPQ is almost a given.

As for testing against specific enemies, I find it kind of pointless because the AI can't play as well as good players when it comes to certain synergies or order firing powers and we are winning more than 85% of the time. AI-proof synergies like Kitty/R4G, Polaris/R4G, Colossus/Wanda or Hulkoye are there. You don't need training for such synergies. 

shardwick

HoundofShadow said:

@shardwick The main point is, we don't need the kind of reflex and muscle memories that fighting games need. On top of that, our AI is dumb. That's why I don't see a need for training mode. As I mentioned, if our AI is smart as good human players, I'm fine with training mode. Because (new) players would be able to see how AI teams play smartly on defense for pvps or for other purposes. As of now, our AI can't do that intelligently. It follows specific orders: firing powers from left most colour to the right most colour etc. Players don't do that.

As far as testing for synergies is concerned, as long as you don't have strange criteria like not wanting to use healthpacks or what not, you can test it anywhere in pves you want (since I think your training mode is restricted to players' rosters.) Winning matches in MPQ is almost a given.

As for testing against specific enemies, I find it kind of pointless because the AI can't play as well as good players when it comes to certain synergies or order firing powers and we are winning more than 85% of the time. AI-proof synergies like Kitty/R4G, Polaris/R4G, Colossus/Wanda or Hulkoye are there. You don't need training for such synergies. 

Just so we're on the same page here, you don't want MPQ to have a training mode until the AI plays at the level of human players at a competitive championship tournament that has lots of people in the audience cheering for them? 

HoundofShadow

I don't need that level of smart AI where we have audience cheering. Such level of gameplay would probably be eye opening and shocking for the world. If MPQ could do that, Marvel will show us even more love than they do for MCOC.

The AIs just need to behave like normal/good players like switch our teams around, not matching own special tiles after firing it (because most of the time, it's not beneficial), know how to spam powers instead of firing it only once, firing powers in certain orders to accomplish a certain synergy. Such training mode will be more meaningful. 

shardwick

@IceIX Is it possible to increase the intelligence of the AI in one part of the game without it affecting the rest of the game? If possible that could make for one interesting game mode.

Daredevil217

HoundofShadow said:

@shardwick Do you really have to be glued to that one word? I merely left out some words and you are biting on the "punch and deals 30-40% of max health" mistake. Look,  anyone who plays fighting game decently knows that you don't do individual punch when there's opening. You punch and do combo. That's why fighting game typically have training mode to train your skills and muscle memories. If you are still going to nitpick about me missing some words and not understand the main concepts between the difference of a match-3 and fighting game, then so be it. 

@Daredevil217 buying car is a 5-6 figures sum of investment. Of course, they let you try it out and please you as much as possible because they want you to buy the car and earn commission. In MPQ it's different. The people here are sensitive to spending a lot. If the dev let you try out a fully champed 5* Jane Foster for free for 3 days and then sell 1500 shards of hers for 99.99 usd, would you guys buy it? Or would you whale for her HP store after trying? Of course not. You guys would rather wait for her to enter LTs or her special store to champ her. Most of you won't touch highly priced cash bundles.

And I like to emphasise, I mention major change without tradeoff. Over the years, the dev and ex-dev have given players items for free without tradeoffs. It has happened many times. The kind of change I'm thinking is shards vs bonus heroes as an example. There were tradeoffs. Other example would be the UI change a few years back. However, it affected steam players and they were not happy about it.

A few things. 

1) some would (and absolutely do) whale their way to good characters they don’t have rather than wait (look at the HP store as an example). Dealerships know that most people who test drive their cars aren’t walking away buying one. But if they can hook that one buyer with deep pockets by showing off their inventory, it’s worth it. 

2) You’re speaking to rewards when you talk trade-offs. My examples are more quality of life. Like roster-sorting/ filtering  and saved teams. Improvements/ changes to the game such as these that are not hidden behind a paywall and simply just give players a better gaming experience have been implemented. A training mode would be more akin to those changes than say adding shards to the game. So saying that all changes/development time needs to come with a price tag is flat out wrong. 

3) Any thoughts on the idea that if all people cared about is being able to play with all characters and not having to pay, they could just sandbox their accounts?  Again, sandboxing is a punishment NOT a reward because having access to all characters is meaningless if you can’t actually compete with them. 

4) Also you continue to talk about opposing the dumb AI as the reason not to have a training mode and I’ve already disputed that by explaining that my opponent is other human players and myself, NOT the AI. The AI in fighting games also sucks. They have a training mode because their real opponent is other players. Once you understand that and allow yourself to shift your mindset, you can better understand why some would want a training mode. But this got ignored as well like point 3. 

Bad

Daredevil217 said:

3) Any thoughts on the idea that if all people cared about is being able to play with all characters and not having to pay, they could just sandbox their accounts?  Again, sandboxing is a punishment NOT a reward because having access to all characters is meaningless if you can’t actually compete with them. 

Again you insist on this point, and so do I.
The fact that you see as something normal to get an account sandboxed doesn't mean that it's something ok.
It's an illegal act because it's violating contract terms, those that supposedly the player reads when downloading the app.
And again if all people acted like that devs would have to take another actions, not just sandboxing. The process to get a sandboxed account is to cheat, in other words, so no, it's not a valid option, and no, it's not harmless.
And luckily you will leave that point out, if you care a bit about the game, that's it.

Daredevil217

Bad said:

Daredevil217 said:

3) Any thoughts on the idea that if all people cared about is being able to play with all characters and not having to pay, they could just sandbox their accounts?  Again, sandboxing is a punishment NOT a reward because having access to all characters is meaningless if you can’t actually compete with them. 

Again you insist on this point, and so do I.
The fact that you see as something normal to get an account sandboxed doesn't mean that it's something ok.
It's an illegal act because it's violating contract terms, those that supposedly the player reads when downloading the app.
And again if all people acted like that devs would have to take another actions, not just sandboxing. The process to get a sandboxed account is to cheat, in other words, so no, it's not a valid option, and no, it's not harmless.
And luckily you will leave that point out, if you care a bit about the game, that's it.

You’re missing the point. You’re right that if everyone broke the rules to intentionally get sandboxed, the developers would no longer do it. Why? Because it would then be seen as a reward, rather than the punishment it is. But since people don’t think the way you and Hound believe they do, we don’t have to worry about that. That’s the whole point.  The game is not in jeopardy of this happening because people actually want to use their heroes in matches against other players in ways that count. And having the ability to play in a meaningless (meaning for no rewards or placement) training mode would not change that. 

Bad

The developers would no longer do it, I agree.
But they would no longer do it that or anything else, except putting a shut down message.
If you are a f2p (providing no support)and you have sandboxed accounts(devs destining resources to punish you), congratulations! 
Probably the day will come when the only way to remember this game would be watching recorded videos on YouTube thanks to your egotistical attitude.

HoundofShadow

@Daredevil217

1) there are whales whalings HP store even without trying out characters, just like how there are whales buying cars without trying. The probability of turning minnows (those spending $0 to $10) to whales is low via training mode. Players are just going to try it for free to scratch their itch. If a 30 usd cash bundle that give 525 shards of 5* that they just tried pops up after a few days, they won't buy it.

2) Not all UI change is a paywall, which is true and many are QOLs. Such changes serve to also freshen up the game. However, some UI requires weighing potential losses. For example, a few years back (2018) the dev made some major UI change, at the expense of steam players. I remember they were complaining about how the new UI was terrible and some of them were quitting because of the change. I think some players asked the dev in one of the FAQ whether they can get the original UI back and he answered that it will happen under two circumstances. I can't remember the exact situations but it's something to do with  1) coding more efficiently 2) the number of players increase. While you can't see a paywall but it's still involve some form of financial tradeoff.

3) As for sandboxed accounts, it's against the rule. Sure, they can access all characters illegally but there will always be such players, regardless of whether they want training mode or not. Majority of players aren't competing in the sense of playing for placements anyway. Those who want to try all characters and play competitively aren't a lot. The dev has already given players a minor version of training mode via PvE Join Force nodes, Shield Training, Introducing... and potentially future boss events under new dev team, players get to play with fully covered 2*, 3*, 4* and 5 that they don't own under a limited situation. Having 24/7 access to all characters is not a UI change, it's another game mode. Having such training mode will be detrimental to the game, just like how letting players trade covers is bad for the game.

4) Typically, players can choose easy, normal or difficult mode in fighting games. Most AIs in fighting games in early rounds are bad. I suppose that's a pseudo training mode for players playing in game arcades. However, they are smarter in late rounds.

As mentioned training mode in such games also train for reflexes and memory. For example, if you have never played fighting games before but you could memorise all the moves of a certain character, it won't guarantee that you will be good or even survive in mid round because it requires those split second of decision making. However, if a new player memorised how to use Hulkoye or Polaris/BRB,  they will be able to win majority of the matches. Majority of players don't have to make such kind of split second decision in MPQ. I can play a match, grab a drink in the middle of the match, and I'll still win my match. Or players can watch netflix while playing MPQ. You can't really do that if you are playing fighting games.

shardwick

Just because a game is turn-based it doesn't negate the need to train to get better at it. By your logic you need more strategy to play Street Fighter than you do to play something like chess, or any card/board game for that matter. 

HoundofShadow

When I see players asking for advices about team builds, and other players reply and explain the synergies behind them, most of them get it without trying them out in training mode. They simply see the explanation and understand how it work. MPQ isn't as complexed as it seems, such that we need a training mode to hone our senses. On top of that, you will get "better" only when you use meta characters. Also, our win rate is automatically 85% or more because the dev has deliberately dumbed down the AI. There's no way we can train to get 100% because if RNG wants to mess us up, we'll lose no matter how good we are. For example, I've seen 550 Hulkoye  players messing up their T1-T10 placements. I'm sure that other than real-life commitments, it's due to RNG that they lost. Recently, some player started a thread in reddit about cascades, and a lot of them shared how they won or lost quickly due to lucky cascades. You can't train for lucky cascades. It happens when RNG wants it to happen.

If you ask someone to parry an attack or multiple attacks he can't get it right at the beginning because timing, experience and muscle memories are important. This is something one needs to practise frequently. 

shardwick

HoundofShadow said:

When I see players asking for advices about team builds, and other players reply and explain the synergies behind them, most of them get it without trying them out in training mode. They simply see the explanation and understand how it work. MPQ isn't as complexed as it seems, such that we need a training mode to hone our senses. On top of that, you will get "better" only when you use meta characters. Also, our win rate is automatically 85% or more because the dev has deliberately dumbed down the AI. There's no way we can train to get 100% because if RNG wants to mess us up, we'll lose no matter how good we are. For example, I've seen 550 Hulkoye  players messing up their T1-T10 placements. I'm sure that other than real-life commitments, it's due to RNG that they lost. Recently, some player started a thread in reddit about cascades, and a lot of them shared how they won or lost quickly due to lucky cascades. You can't train for lucky cascades. It happens when RNG wants it to happen.

If you ask someone to parry an attack or multiple attacks he can't get it right at the beginning because timing, experience and muscle memories are important. This is something one needs to practise frequently. 

No, you'll get better when you can practice with a character more and more. When I first used my champed Shang Chi I was awful with him and then I slowly got better with him the more I used him, and after that I developed better strategies for using him. You can't get that from just "Hey, match purples and reds and you'll easily win." And as for top placement I have countless first place finishes under my belt and I'd say that the vast majority of the time it wasn't RNG that messed up someone's placement but time management. People will either do their clears way too early or they'll start way too late. It's why I almost always place better on events with more difficult challenge nodes and wave nodes because a lot of people don't plan accordingly and just say "Well, I usually start my clears with this much time left so I'll do that on this sub too," and then they run out of time or they wipe on a more difficult challenge node. I experience bad RNG waaaaay more in pvp than pve, aside from whenever Prof X is in a challenge node. 

TheEyeDoctorsWife

Actually when I started using Shang it really was just basic common sense . Hey just match purple and red and win easily . My placement jumped up almost overnight. Granted it’s slower because you aren’t using passives or special tiles like 99% of players use as a crutch . But it isn’t rocket science to learn how to use him . ( I realize intellect varies enormously in the player base so my results may not reflect others’ results in using him ).

MegaBee

TheEyeDoctorsWife said:

Actually when I started using Shang it really was just basic common sense . Hey just match purple and red and win easily . My placement jumped up almost overnight. Granted it’s slower because you aren’t using passives or special tiles like 99% of players use as a crutch . But it isn’t rocket science to learn how to use him . ( I realize intellect varies enormously in the player base so my results may not reflect others’ results in using him ).

I LOLed...