Request for Training Mode

Chirus

dianetics said:

Hound you are thinking way too much about what people want.
It does not have to be some giant fleshed out mode with tons of options letting you do whatever you want with whatever character at whatever level.

It literally only has to be a set of three static target dummies that sit there and do a few things.
Sit there do no damage every turn.
Sit there and do 1 damage per turn.
Sit there and make one match per turn.
Sit there and do 1 aoe damage every turn.

All of this for only your own roster.

Not some super giant fleshed out mode with tons of options unlocking everything in the game.
Hell it could even be tied locally to your own device if you don't want to waste server resources.

Genshin Impact has training dummies and it is a gatcha game.

Is this the idea everyone supports when it comes to a sandbox/practice arena? Because I think this is also workable. An experience that is fundamentally different from actual play by preventing you from matching up against existing heroes in this game. Only allowing you to practice with heroes you already own, but nothing outside of your collection, and never against a fully fleshed-out hero. Just a nondescript placeholder that has no abilities and can do no damage. A literal target dummy. 

dianetics

I'm not sure what everyone supports.
It's just the implementation I would want. To test out teams and abilities to see how they function.
Without consequences or real restrictions.
Just get in and DPS and see how well certain heroes synergize.

Chirus

dianetics said:

I'm not sure what everyone supports.
It's just the implementation I would want. To test out teams and abilities to see how they function.
Without consequences or real restrictions.
Just get in and DPS and see how well certain heroes synergize.

I see the merits of it. But I also think some degree of restrictions are necessary due to the way this game is structured. Your version has just the right amount of limitations that I don't think would either hurt the company's bottom line nor would it trivialize entire portions of the game. Others have expressed interest in having access to the full catalog of all heroes. And I don't necessarily think the idea is completely without merit. It's nice to be able to test before you buy. But having full access to everything does objectively trivialize certain portions of the game, so I'm less supportive of that suggestion.

Bad

Imo what it's needed is more content not focused on speed or heroic gauntlets, that will leave more chances to try out new sinergies and explore a lot of potential this game has into its hundreds of characters, and doing it on a meaningful way.
It's funny when every new feature appears everybody claims no one wants to play a minute more if the reward is not worthy.
But however for to play with all characters unlocked many players would find time (obviously for many players suddenly they will have all the slots and all characters leveled and not softcapped).
Or owned characters on a lower version of the practice mode, which in other words is like saying "I want to play all I want but without using health packs ". 

HoundofShadow

@dianetics I didn't think too much actually because that is the type of training mode some wants, not just here but in reddit as well. There needs to be some limitation and limitation to personal roster seems fine enough. However, I just don't get the benefit of training mode limited to roster. First of all, players win >85% of the time. You can practise against the same opponents 10 times to perfect your strategy, but all it takes is the AI to get lucky cascades to down your main character. I believe most players with decent enough skills lose to AI largely due to cascades or surprise teamup like Penance Stare or stun teamup.

There are shield sim, Puzzle Gauntlet and SCL 10 nodes to practise your teams. SCL 10 is the most accessible with goons in most of the pves. Their health ars high enough to test out strategies and when the last goon is about to be downed, you can retreat and you don't lose points, except for wave nodes. I do that sometimes when I want to test out certain strategies and goons are easily accessible.

Alternatively, if the AI is as good as expert players and they can fire powers intelligently, I think it might make sense to get a training mode limited to personal roster because the difficulty and challenge exists. As of now, we are winning >85% of the time. If our win rate start dropping to 55-60%, I won't have problem supporting training mode limited to personal rosters.

@shardwick I didn't spend a single dime on my main account but I created an alt account to support the dev with purchases.

Is spending money to support the dev important? Yes, it is. Players can talk about how they are the most passionate MPQ players in the world and how they want MPQ to exist longer but if those passion don't translates to dollars and revenues for MPQ, it won't survive for long. I heard that top players aren't spending as much now because they have already catched up to MPQ and they have access to almost everything the game has to offer to them. Even non-competitive players who have caught up aren't spending much as well. We have to depend on new whales, dolphins and minnows to spend to keep the game going. 

itsuka7

Just as an example of how certain training modes can work: Gems of War, which is a similar gacha collecting match 3 game, has a free training mode, where people can set a defense team, and you can play that team if you are in the same alliance. Actually, you can play against your own defense team if you want, but alliance mates are helpful if you lack certain chars. The defense you can set is limited to the chars you have, at the level you have them. It is not a widely used feature, but useful at times when you want to practice against a specific team. The training matches do not get you any resources, do not count for milestones or xp, do not cost heals. I can see a similar low key training mode adding something to mpq without breaking any economy, for instance to see if certain attack teams work together well. 

shardwick

HoundofShadow said:

@dianetics I didn't think too much actually because that is the type of training mode some wants, not just here but in reddit as well. There needs to be some limitation and limitation to personal roster seems fine enough. However, I just don't get the benefit of training mode limited to roster. First of all, players win >85% of the time. You can practise against the same opponents 10 times to perfect your strategy, but all it takes is the AI to get lucky cascades to down your main character. I believe most players with decent enough skills lose to AI largely due to cascades or surprise teamup like Penance Stare or stun teamup.

There are shield sim, Puzzle Gauntlet and SCL 10 nodes to practise your teams. SCL 10 is the most accessible with goons in most of the pves. Their health ars high enough to test out strategies and when the last goon is about to be downed, you can retreat and you don't lose points, except for wave nodes. I do that sometimes when I want to test out certain strategies and goons are easily accessible.

Alternatively, if the AI is as good as expert players and they can fire powers intelligently, I think it might make sense to get a training mode limited to personal roster because the difficulty and challenge exists. As of now, we are winning >85% of the time. If our win rate start dropping to 55-60%, I won't have problem supporting training mode limited to personal rosters.

@shardwick I didn't spend a single dime on my main account but I created an alt account to support the dev with purchases.

Is spending money to support the dev important? Yes, it is. Players can talk about how they are the most passionate MPQ players in the world and how they want MPQ to exist longer but if those passion don't translates to dollars and revenues for MPQ, it won't survive for long. I heard that top players aren't spending as much now because they have already catched up to MPQ and they have access to almost everything the game has to offer to them. Even non-competitive players who have caught up aren't spending much as well. We have to depend on new whales, dolphins and minnows to spend to keep the game going. 

And do you think that developers of other games put in a training mode to make money from the game? No, they do it to make the game more well rounded just like I'm sure the Campaign/Prologue in MPQ isn't exactly making MPQ lots of money. It's there to help new players get used to the game early on and to help build up their rosters for the story mode. Should they remove that mode if new players aren't emptying their wallets to buy a bunch of Starks?

HoundofShadow

@dianetics pve nodes are accessible 24/7. You don't have to wait till you are about grind or clear your nodes to test it. There's at least 22-hour window period for you to test your teams. 

@itsuka7 I used to play GoW as well for close to a year. I can't remember setting defense team and training mode there. I stopped playing GoW because it has too much content. Some of the important gameplay difference between GoW and MPQ is that the AI "knows" how to create winfinites, that's probably why training mode for GoW makes sense. It allows you to see if your AI knows how to create winfinite. Honestly, the AI in MPQ is pretty dumb and they can't even create winfinite like players do. If they could do that, that's another reason I see valid to have a training mode in MPQ. 

@shardwick It depends on what kind of games you're talking about. It's common for fighting games to have training modes. How those developers monetise games and whether they need to pay royalty affects what they could and couldn't do. I remember some players asked the dev the difference between MSF(?) and MPQ development process(?). The dev answered that the dev was a subsidiary of Marvel/Disney and their contracts drawn up are different.

As for Campaign/Prologue, they are different from training mode. The features (mentioned) of training mode mentioned is totally different from Campaign/Prologue. Campaign/Prologue are tutorials to introduce the basic mechanics/gameplay of the game. They are basically there to whet their appetites. New players get out of 1* and 2* land in about 2 weeks. 3* land takes about 8-10 months. I don't remember needing to spend Stark within 1-2 weeks when I was playing my main but when I play my alt, the game was throwing cash bundles that speed up my transition out of 2* land even more quickly. I think it was about 10-15 usd. 

axmoss

i have asked for this in the past. every character available goons to toons, set and playtest ability levels and character levels (every character can max out at 550 like Balance of Power), pick your opponent/s, time limit, and option for health reset.

except for this pay wall. why not let people try it out or know who to shard for their roster

dianetics

@HoundofShadow You are correct. But , I fight for top 50 placements. So if I use an unknown team I will pushed below 50.
If I run unoptimized teams I could potentially be pushed out if placing.

A dummy is a simple implementation, and a common feature since the early 2000’s

I would love, but it is not killing me not having it.

Bad

By the way:
- Genshin impact could be a gacha game but it looks a first person rpg: nothing in common with this game as its combos could be kind of like street fighter games.
- Fire emblem heroes has a mock game when you fight the team you set on defense. However that's a total different game. Defense on this game is not really difficult to figure it out: AI will fire the expensive power if there are 2 same colors, or it will fire them randomly. You will fight with your best characters or with the godboosted ones you have. There is nothing really that hard to planning, to the point I know.
- I usually get T50 too. You can try godboosted characters combos, you can fail a sub and still get T50. There is not so high competition on t50 as T25.
- eventually you will know how well a team sinergies when fighting him, if it becomes popular you can be sure it's good.
- imo nothing justifies devs wasting resources on this mode when there are still so many things in desperate need to be changed.

JRYUART

Adding a training mode with zero earnable rewards that doesn’t count towards milestones would only enrich the game for those who have already made a time/money investment to play, and continue to play this game. 

Frankly speaking, this iteration of the game should have been sunsetted a few years back to make way for a MPQ 2.  Instead, we have a game written in spaghetti code that the current devs are having to learn, revamp and optimize so that all of the wish list items that would improve the game can even be implemented .  The devs’ intent of improving the game for the benefit of all involved is readily apparent , as evidenced by the 180 we have seen since BC took over.  But in addition to the existent technical hurdles, they are having to devote time on the marketing side to attract new players, which will help keep this game going. That said, having the Marvel license to market with, when this IP is probably the most valuable entertainment IP in the world, lessens some of the pressure on that front.     

The problem with this though, is that keeping new players is a huge problem despite the massive Marvel name recognition because of the amount of effort it takes for a player to convert to a invested and daily player.  Whether it be the sheer amount of characters to collect, the acquisition of resources, or the “walls” that most seasoned players had to overcome (MMR related roster imbalances, the grind) it’s not long before a player decides that it’s not worth their time.  

Having a training mode at this juncture in the game’s life cycle would benefit players from all tiers.  This mode would serve as an incentive for new players to see what what kind of roster they could eventually obtain, and for vet players to further find motivation in why they continue to play via new team compositions and strategies.  As of now, the main motivation for anyone to spend, is for the purpose of acquiring more pulls to have on hand, and because they want to speed up their roster development progress from years to days/months due to the current rolling limited time availability LL store system. What happens when you do eventually have that meta team you’ve been saving for? What is the next incentive ? 

I said this on Reddit and I’ll say this here : there is no pot of gold at the end of this game.  If you continue to play to this day, and you have a mature roster including 550’s and an SCL over 300, you’d better be playing for the love of the game cause there are very few incentives waiting for you at this point. Adding a training mode isn’t a necessary thing, but it would be very very welcome, even if it were a gatekept feature behind VIP, as it would only further encourage long term engagement for the players as yet another activity that can maintain their ongoing interest.  Engagement, imho, is the single biggest issue that BC faces regardless of what level the player is at - any new in-game activities or modes can only help.  

shardwick

HoundofShadow said:

@dianetics pve nodes are accessible 24/7. You don't have to wait till you are about grind or clear your nodes to test it. There's at least 22-hour window period for you to test your teams. 

@itsuka7 I used to play GoW as well for close to a year. I can't remember setting defense team and training mode there. I stopped playing GoW because it has too much content. Some of the important gameplay difference between GoW and MPQ is that the AI "knows" how to create winfinites, that's probably why training mode for GoW makes sense. It allows you to see if your AI knows how to create winfinite. Honestly, the AI in MPQ is pretty dumb and they can't even create winfinite like players do. If they could do that, that's another reason I see valid to have a training mode in MPQ. 

@shardwick It depends on what kind of games you're talking about. It's common for fighting games to have training modes. How those developers monetise games and whether they need to pay royalty affects what they could and couldn't do. I remember some players asked the dev the difference between MSF(?) and MPQ development process(?). The dev answered that the dev was a subsidiary of Marvel/Disney and their contracts drawn up are different.

As for Campaign/Prologue, they are different from training mode. The features (mentioned) of training mode mentioned is totally different from Campaign/Prologue. Campaign/Prologue are tutorials to introduce the basic mechanics/gameplay of the game. They are basically there to whet their appetites. New players get out of 1* and 2* land in about 2 weeks. 3* land takes about 8-10 months. I don't remember needing to spend Stark within 1-2 weeks when I was playing my main but when I play my alt, the game was throwing cash bundles that speed up my transition out of 2* land even more quickly. I think it was about 10-15 usd. 

You went on this big spiel pretty much demanding people tell you exactly how a training mode can make D3 sacks and sacks of cash but now you're like welllll it's ok for other games to have a training mode but not this game? Come on, man. A training mode would enrich the game and make it less boring when there's very little to do. You also mentioned earlier that people could just train in other modes but that's not really training unless the characters that you want to fight are in those specific nodes. If someone wants to train against 5* Jane then they can't because most people don't have her champed right now and she's not in any nodes in pve right now either. If someone wants to fight Gargantos teams then they can't for the same reason, but they could in a training mode.

As for campaign I've played a hell of a lot of match 3 puzzle games and I think MPQ is the only one that had a campaign mode solely to teach you how to play the game that was separate from the rest of the game. Other games just do it in the first handful of matches or if they introduce a new gameplay element. As a tutorial I think most people could learn the game without the campaign mode. Just add a Clearance level 0 to pve events and have the enemies be very low in level and give some loaner 2* characters. I think the campaign is fairly useless overall unless they were to really flesh it out and make it a progression only story mode that increasingly got more difficult with better rewards. 

FairyBlades52

As a casual player, the way I envisioned a training mode was so you can figure out how to beat a certain team or to play with your characters to find your best gameplay fit for them without affecting your placement level in PVP or wipe out your health packs. 

I wouldn’t think that the training mode would give any rewards or that you can play with whoever you want, only who you have already. 

I simply don’t see a training mode being implemented because this is a match game that has fighting elements, but it’s not a fighting game where you need to learn how to use the controller/keyboard to make the combos work so why would they spend time, server space and money on it when things like rebalances, supports and UI upgrades are still needed? 

How would a training mode encourage spending? The try out the characters when they’re released is already implemented. 

Bad

JRYUART said:

Frankly speaking, this iteration of the game should have been sunsetted a few years back to make way for a MPQ 2.  Instead, we have a game written in spaghetti code that the current devs are having to learn, revamp and optimize so that all of the wish list items that would improve the game can even be implemented . 

That would be true for a console game. But again, this is a gacha game (gachapon, or looting boxes).
Gacha games second parts importing data are counted with the fingers of one hand. One of them could be Seven Knights 2, and still it's because it's on PC too. 
Anyway that would be a new whole game for to program and it's easier to continue patching MPQ.
When a gacha game has nothing more to apport usually shuts down and all players are left wiping tears.Gacha games are friendlier to revenues rather than players.
If a gacha game releases another franchise usually it's because they see a lot of market there, but still they continue with the original game, see Candy Crush (although not being a gacha game it has revenue for in-game buys).

HoundofShadow

@dianetics What I meant is that you can test your teams outside of clear and grind time. For example, you play in Slice 1 SCL 10. Your grind and clear time are from 6.30 to 7.30. You can test your teams anytime  between 7.30 to next day 6.30 without clearing the nodes by retreating. You'll still get non-reduced points at 6.30 when you start grinding, unless you tried it in a wave node.

@shardwick Context is very important. The reason why it's normal for fighting games to have training mode is because players need to practise real-time defense, combos, parries etc. All these are critical to winning matches. On top of that, most fighting games already allow players full access to all characters and their monetisation is different from collectible card/match-3 games like MPQ. 

Also, the AI in MPQ is dumb. We're winning majority of the time. I can bring 2 4* and 1 5* against meta team of Colossus/Wanda/Apocalypse and still beat them. This is how bad the AI is. If our AI are as smart as human players and their win rate is between 45-55% of the time, I would support a training mode in MPQ. When that happens, it signifies major change to the game.

Next, I need to reiterate the context and the type of training mode typically proposed: full access to all champed characters in the game, with the ability to pick and choose any team players want to play with or to play against with. Whales are spending a few thousands dollars to champ 5* from HP store and training mode will made such spending redundant. The dev has ready laid out their monetisation method and they even did an interview on it in the early years. Majority of MPQ's revenues come from roster slot costs and opening packs/cash bundles to get covers. A training mode drastically reduce the need to spend. A player would think, "It's ok that I don't have that champed 4* or 5* now to play in pvps or pves. I'll make do with what I have and play that characters in training mode without spending. Another group of players who are tired of chasing covers and HP would think, "With training mode, I don't have to spend or worry about roster slot costs, neither do I need to think about spending another 5-10 years to champ all characters. Why play according to schedule, chase and pay when I have free access to all characters for free 24/7?" That's why if such training mode is implemented, players who want to have full access to all characters in the game champed have to pay 99.99 for that. Whales are spending thousands to champ 5* and how does it make business sense for all other (non-spending) players to get full access to characters effortlessly. 99.99 is considered cheap, considering how much whale is spending.

If players want to play against a specific team, why not they suggest the teams to the dev and request them to prioritise refreshing CN nodes with those teams players want to play against? We could do a monthly submission of teams we want to face against and let the dev put them in CN.

Bad

Now we have an implemented brand new training mode allowing to play all characters in all levels.
Then I record a video with new Thor max godboosted, a champed Odin and crystal vs 3 colossus godboosted, and I win them.
Someone could explain me why should I chase the new Thor? I already have her in any level and I can play any foe at will. Why to invest more money or effort?
Anyone honestly can believe that situation happening? Someone who didn't recently smoke odds substances.

Bowgentle

It's AMAZING what lengths some people will go to, to prove that something will not work, and in fact would kill the game.

By that logic we still wouldn't have time slices in PVE and PVP, because that multiplied the rewards that are given out.

Really incredible.

Look, let devs weigh in, and use this thread to populate your ignore lists.

Bad

I agree. For some people weights more their selfish caprices than the game's fate.
Luckily this thread could serve for to acknowledge this fact.

FairyBlades52

One thing though, the psychology of gacha games is rewards, placement, collecting. It’s not just playing with the characters. The characters are the lure. We think oh yay I champed the newest 5* high, the new devs have dropped exciting characters, good art to chase, my alliance started spending when they hadn’t in months. 

The whales pay because they want to own the character, not simply play with it. They get their psych reward by being able to place in top tiers all the time with their legion of 550s, crushing other players placement levels, not AI. I don’t think the psychology of people will just play in the train mode with no rewards would happen. They use Line so they can coordinate and attack. You think those folks will be content playing in a sandbox? Athletes don’t practice for hours so they can play by themselves. If there is no reward to chase, there is no challenge. Even a casual player like me would stop playing if there is no reward to chase. I gave up on placement a long time ago. It’s not just playing with the characters that has me choose this game over other match 3 games. 

Harry Potter has a match 3 game, got bored because the way the reward system works doesn’t pay off for time spent playing. You can best other alliance’s but the rewards are lame. The placement for everything is a reason this game has lasted so long. It gives you a feeling of competition against others even though you’re playing against AI all the time. 

My thoughts are simply a train mode has to do something monetarily for the game, otherwise why spend your company resources on it? So I agree that I don’t see how implementing training in MPQ helps them make money, but I don’t agree that a full training mode would mean people stop collecting the covers.