Request for Training Mode

Phumade

It seems pointless to have a training mode if you can't specify the exact composition and level of the enemy  team.  The whole idea of trying out chars that you can't afford to roster seems a bit disingenuous.  Is the goal to allow new players the ability to practice 5* against a 1hp dummy target?  From a dev time perspective, it seems like its a way for new players to free ride on the devs dime.

I personally would not financially support the game in this fashion because limited to no value to high level players.  

That said, I would gladly play $5 bucks a month to try out my roster against specific enemy teams and levels.  With god boost weeks, It can be tricky to dial in what teams you can realistically beat without a few practice matches.  Its really common to fight 600+ teams in pve and pvp, the ability to practice high level pvp matches and pve Challenge nodes without point or time penalties would really invigorate play experience.

shardwick

HoundofShadow said:

@dianetics What I meant is that you can test your teams outside of clear and grind time. For example, you play in Slice 1 SCL 10. Your grind and clear time are from 6.30 to 7.30. You can test your teams anytime  between 7.30 to next day 6.30 without clearing the nodes by retreating. You'll still get non-reduced points at 6.30 when you start grinding, unless you tried it in a wave node.

@shardwick Context is very important. The reason why it's normal for fighting games to have training mode is because players need to practise real-time defense, combos, parries etc. All these are critical to winning matches. On top of that, most fighting games already allow players full access to all characters and their monetisation is different from collectible card/match-3 games like MPQ. 

Also, the AI in MPQ is dumb. We're winning majority of the time. I can bring 2 4* and 1 5* against meta team of Colossus/Wanda/Apocalypse and still beat them. This is how bad the AI is. If our AI are as smart as human players and their win rate is between 45-55% of the time, I would support a training mode in MPQ. When that happens, it signifies major change to the game.

Next, I need to reiterate the context and the type of training mode typically proposed: full access to all champed characters in the game, with the ability to pick and choose any team players want to play with or to play against with. Whales are spending a few thousands dollars to champ 5* from HP store and training mode will made such spending redundant. The dev has ready laid out their monetisation method and they even did an interview on it in the early years. Majority of MPQ's revenues come from roster slot costs and opening packs/cash bundles to get covers. A training mode drastically reduce the need to spend. A player would think, "It's ok that I don't have that champed 4* or 5* now to play in pvps or pves. I'll make do with what I have and play that characters in training mode without spending. Another group of players who are tired of chasing covers and HP would think, "With training mode, I don't have to spend or worry about roster slot costs, neither do I need to think about spending another 5-10 years to champ all characters. Why play according to schedule, chase and pay when I have free access to all characters for free 24/7?" That's why if such training mode is implemented, players who want to have full access to all characters in the game champed have to pay 99.99 for that. Whales are spending thousands to champ 5* and how does it make business sense for all other (non-spending) players to get full access to characters effortlessly. 99.99 is considered cheap, considering how much whale is spending.

If players want to play against a specific team, why not they suggest the teams to the dev and request them to prioritise refreshing CN nodes with those teams players want to play against? We could do a monthly submission of teams we want to face against and let the dev put them in CN.

You don't think that there are strategies to playing MPQ versus a fighting game? Even though the enemies aren't smart they can still wipe your team if you don't play strategically. If I do this move then that would set up a match 4/5 for enemy Onslaught, I'm low on health and half the board is filled with teamup tiles... hmm can't do that. If I do this then I can set up a red match 5 for my Shang and then I can use those reds to make a purple match 4. When I play, especially against enemies on challenge nodes, you always have to play ahead against nearly all enemies in the game. And speaking of challenge nodes, how would your idea for having devs put a specific team in a challenge node work for people that either don't have access to cl10 or are content with playing on lower clearance levels? If an early 4* player that only plays on cl6 or 7 wants to develop strategies against Polaris and Rocket then they can't do that in pve but they could in a training mode. Or hell they could bring back the gauntlet, run it every season that features some of the more common teams in it and people could use that as a de facto training mode. Or they could do a version of Marvel Trading Cards where you could buy packs of characters with hp and then those characters would be unlocked for use in training mode.

HoundofShadow

@shardwickBoth games have strategies. However, match-3 doesn't have as much strategy as fighting games. Before I play a match in MPQ, I already know that I'll win the match because the dev has consciously designed the AI to have limited strategies.  Even if players lose a match, it's largely due to AI getting cascades of aps or players getting bad board. There are other minor causes like infinite invisibility/airborne, deadly teamups or players forgetting to heal their characters. As seen, our lose rate is largely due to RNG and it has nothing to do with the skills of AIs. They can't spam powers, store up aps, fire powers in the right order required by certain teams etc.

In fighting games, a wrong timing to parry attack or blocking the wrong type of punch can cause your health to be downed by 30-40% of your max health.

Most non 5* meta teams can be commonly found in pvps. Even 2*/3* players can spot lots of Polaris in pvps. That's why players always complain about seeing the same teams in pvps (before godboosting was created).

If changing up only CN is limited, the dev could run Simulator or Gauntlet, like you suggested, twice a month with teams suggested by players. That's about 21-22 teams per run and 42-44 teams per month.

shardwick

HoundofShadow said:

@shardwickBoth games have strategies. However, match-3 doesn't have as much strategy as fighting games. Before I play a match in MPQ, I already know that I'll win the match because the dev has consciously designed the AI to have limited strategies.  Even if players lose a match, it's largely due to AI getting cascades of aps or players getting bad board. There are other minor causes like infinite invisibility/airborne, deadly teamups or players forgetting to heal their characters. As seen, our lose rate is largely due to RNG and it has nothing to do with the skills of AIs. They can't spam powers, store up aps, fire powers in the right order required by certain teams etc.

In fighting games, a wrong timing to parry attack or blocking the wrong type of punch can cause your health to be downed by 30-40% of your max health.

Most non 5* meta teams can be commonly found in pvps. Even 2*/3* players can spot lots of Polaris in pvps. That's why players always complain about seeing the same teams in pvps (before godboosting was created).

If changing up only CN is limited, the dev could run Simulator or Gauntlet, like you suggested, twice a month with teams suggested by players. That's about 21-22 teams per run and 42-44 teams per month.

Exactly what fighting games are you playing where a basic punch takes off 40% of your max health? Ryu punches you three times and you die? No. If that was the case then nobody would ever use super powers and they would just punch people to death. If anything there's more strategy involved in MPQ because you're not just dealing with one opponent but three and you have to decide which one poses the biggest threat as well as dealing with their different powers and who works best against them. 

WilliamK1983

Whenever the write up for a new character is released, what is the first couple of things we all do?  Theorize about best build for the powers, who they could pair with, who they're a counter for, etc.  It would be great to have a place to test those theories out.  Nothing will be gained from this mode except strategies and team builds.  No iso, no hp, nothing. Conversely, nothing will be lost either meaning health packs, boosts, etc.  

If it's just for the characters you have on your roster, that's fine.  There are currently 267 characters in the game and growing.  With the addition of 3* releases into the fold, the combinations are endless.  So why not have a mode where you can test teams out?  You don't want it, don't use it.  Expecting anyone to do that when placement is on the line is ridiculous at best.  

HoundofShadow

@shardwick Parrying mistake in fighting games typically leads into a combo or into a slam that knocks off a chunk of your health, depending on the skills of opposing players or difficulty of AIs. And in Fighting Games, you can play against another human players. Like I mentioned, players are  winning matches more than 85% of the time. Remember a few years back the dev changed the rate for cascades due to players' complains? If you manage to see reviews of new players complaining about losing, they typically complain about how AI is cheating due to cascades. As a matter of fact, the ex-dev addressed this in their blog. So, the AI doesn't have any real skill to speak of. I suggested the dev to make AI smarter but they declined. 

@WilliamK1983 You nailed the core point: 
Nothing will be gained from this mode. The dev gain nothing financially. On top of that, training mode makes shield training redundant.

WilliamK1983

It absolutely does not make shield training redundant @HoundofShadow.  Again, reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.  Shield training is like every other pvp, you battle against the same couple handfuls of character combos.  And you are rewarded resources for reaching specific levels.  IN A TRAINING MODE THE PLAYER WILL GAIN NOTHING RESOURCES WISE.  The devs making money isn't my top priority or concern of mine.  Besides, I'm willing to bet the financials of the game are doing just fine.  

HoundofShadow

The concept of shield training is to give the players opportunity to play with newly released 4* so they can figure out different teams. Likewise, the core concept of training mode is to let players test out combination of teams, except that players will have full access to all characters. How does this not make shield training redundant? Training mode effectively made shield training redundant, except that players earn reward. Rewards are secondary in shield training.

If the dev isn't making decent profit, then they will not increase resources freely permanently without tradeoffs. It isn't that difficult to figure it out. And players will continue to complain about how they can never catch up or how they don't have enough HP. The worse case scenario is that they shut down MPQ for good, which isn't a bad idea actually.

WilliamK1983

It's like I'm talking to a wall having to constantly repeat myself.  Ignore list activated.

Bad

The ignore list it's great but sadly reality can't be ignored.
If you have a brand new training mode and 2 months later the game shuts down then I'm not sure what's the point on enabling a ridiculous training mode, which doesn't serves for anything, by the way, except for players playing the game at their own disposal.
If I can fight with all the characters vs all the characters at my will then I don't need to play any repeated pve anymore, I have everything in the game already. 
But I agree there is a wall here: the I-don't-care-for-the-game-a-bit wall.

dianetics

I don't know why you keep coming back to your specific version of a training mode.
I would hazard to guess most people don't want everything unlocked for a training mode / training dummy.
Your version of a training mode / training dummy serves no real purpose.
Something that is user roster limited does have value. You have ignored this specific limitation on every post in this thread that you made reply's to. You continue to straw man for an unlimited training mode that allows users unlimited options which we are not asking for.
The user base has no purpose for your idea of a training mode. They do have use for a roster limited mode.

Clearly, we want an option to go in and test teams with the roster we have.
Nothing more.
Testing a 550 Wasp gives me no benefit, value, or insight. We just want a way to use our current roster without having to use resources. Just go in for 5-10 minutes see how things work together and possibly move those ideas into the live game.

Bad

dianetics said:

I don't know why you keep coming back to your specific version of a training mode.
I would hazard to guess most people don't want everything unlocked for a training mode / training dummy.
Your version of a training mode / training dummy serves no real purpose.

I didn't read many post saying a training mode just on the roster we have, more like the opposite.
If it's the own roster, nothing prevents the player to play the easiest node on pve, after 3 clears done, play with any team and quit before killing them: no practice mode needed.
If it's against a meta pvp team, nothing prevents the player before gaining any point, to target the meta team wanted and try any team, as there won't be any point lost: no practice mode needed. 
If it's about unlocking any character and to fight any team, then a practice mode it's needed, what I actually think it's the intention of many players on this thread, and so my reasoning is correct and my rant well founded.

shardwick

HoundofShadow said:

@shardwick Parrying mistake in fighting games typically leads into a combo or into a slam that knocks off a chunk of your health, depending on the skills of opposing players or difficulty of AIs. And in Fighting Games, you can play against another human players. Like I mentioned, players are  winning matches more than 85% of the time. Remember a few years back the dev changed the rate for cascades due to players' complains? If you manage to see reviews of new players complaining about losing, they typically complain about how AI is cheating due to cascades. As a matter of fact, the ex-dev addressed this in their blog. So, the AI doesn't have any real skill to speak of. I suggested the dev to make AI smarter but they declined. 

@WilliamK1983 You nailed the core point: 
Nothing will be gained from this mode. The dev gain nothing financially. On top of that, training mode makes shield training redundant.

You specifically said a punch that would take off 30-40% of health and now you're changing it to a combo or a slam? Neither of those is a punch. A cascade in MPQ is the equivalent of a combo or a grab/slam in a fighting game that can do a large amount of damage versus making a single match 3 in MPQ which would be more on par with doing a regular punch in a fighting game. Also, what does playing against human players in fighting games have to do with anything? Human players are going to be more likely on average to spam fireballs the entire time and not use any actual skill. Hell I probably got better competition against the AI whenever I played fighting games which is what I used the training mode for since I was playing the computer the majority of the time. Not to mention that with AI opponents I never had to deal with them rage quitting or screaming a bunch of cuss words at the top of their lungs at me whenever they would start to lose. 

HoundofShadow

@dianetics The original version of training node was what I've commonly seen. Also, I've seen a few posts in this thread that mentioned wanting to unlock every characters. How is that strawman? These players want training mode too but they want every characters unlocked. Also, I proposed alternatives of "training mode"  that can be implemented immediately according to your roster, if you want to. If you don't want to do that, then continue waiting for it in a few years' time, maybe. Lastly, what do you mean by you want to test teams for 5-10 minutes without using resources? 

@shardwick You mentioned Ryu so I thought you play fighting games as well. Since you mentioned Ryu, then you might be familiar with Street Fighter. If so, you might know about the famous Daigo's parry. If you don't, here's the video. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JzS96auqau0

Such timing are not luck based, rather it's a skillset. No one goes into a fighting match knowing that they will win more than 85% of the time unless the AI is as smart as MPQ AI, which does happen for the first few matches of a normal mode. Or unless they are really good players.
 
I'm not changing anything, except adding that slamming is one of the move besides punching and kicking in fighting games. If you don't like slamming, I'll remove that. In fighting games, when there's an opening, it's a standard move to chain punch or kick into combo. That's what I mentioned by punch/kick dealing 30-40% damage. No decent players do individual move like a single punch or kick when they see an opening. 

A cascades in MPQ is largely due to luck unless it's done via certain powers. To be more clear, those cascades that you can see are not luck-based (for example, seeing two match-3 in a single move), but those that you can't see are luck based (for example, making a match-3, only for cascades to happen via tiles falling from the top). On top of that, the starting board in MPQ is random. If you have good luck, you have all the favourable cascades or match-5 to finish the match faster. If you've bad luck, the board will give you a lot of useless colours on the board. No amount of training will prepare you for bad board. If the starting board in MPQ is always the same, then it gives a little more weight for training mode. When fighting game players eat a chunk of health, it's not due to RNG. It's due to skill, timing or experience. 

Again, I'm not totally against training mode. I've mentioned a few factors that would make training mode valuable in MPQ. Unfortunately, the factors are not there. If you want to test teams according to what you have, I've proposed alternatives and I've used them many times. If not, let's just get the dev to make Simulator/Gauntlet happen more frequently with inputs from players on what teams they would like to face. 

Bad

As a side note of that Daigo's battle, the guy yelling don't do it is a friend of the player using Chun Li, who knew that Daigo was capable of parrying all the special hits.
Still, one thing is being capable and other to actually doing it in a Final Tournament, and for that reason he entered gaming history.
Also it's the reason if not continuing parrying system anymore in Street Fighter games.

shardwick

HoundofShadow said:

@dianetics The original version of training node was what I've commonly seen. Also, I've seen a few posts in this thread that mentioned wanting to unlock every characters. How is that strawman? These players want training mode too but they want every characters unlocked. Also, I proposed alternatives of "training mode"  that can be implemented immediately according to your roster, if you want to. If you don't want to do that, then continue waiting for it in a few years' time, maybe. Lastly, what do you mean by you want to test teams for 5-10 minutes without using resources? 

@shardwick You mentioned Ryu so I thought you play fighting games as well. Since you mentioned Ryu, then you might be familiar with Street Fighter. If so, you might know about the famous Daigo's parry. If you don't, here's the video. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JzS96auqau0

Such timing are not luck based, rather it's a skillset. No one goes into a fighting match knowing that they will win more than 85% of the time unless the AI is as smart as MPQ AI, which does happen for the first few matches of a normal mode. Or unless they are really good players.
 
I'm not changing anything, except adding that slamming is one of the move besides punching and kicking in fighting games. If you don't like slamming, I'll remove that. In fighting games, when there's an opening, it's a standard move to chain punch or kick into combo. That's what I mentioned by punch/kick dealing 30-40% damage. No decent players do individual move like a single punch or kick when they see an opening. 

A cascades in MPQ is largely due to luck unless it's done via certain powers. To be more clear, those cascades that you can see are not luck-based (for example, seeing two match-3 in a single move), but those that you can't see are luck based (for example, making a match-3, only for cascades to happen via tiles falling from the top). On top of that, the starting board in MPQ is random. If you have good luck, you have all the favourable cascades or match-5 to finish the match faster. If you've bad luck, the board will give you a lot of useless colours on the board. No amount of training will prepare you for bad board. If the starting board in MPQ is always the same, then it gives a little more weight for training mode. When fighting game players eat a chunk of health, it's not due to RNG. It's due to skill, timing or experience. 

Again, I'm not totally against training mode. I've mentioned a few factors that would make training mode valuable in MPQ. Unfortunately, the factors are not there. If you want to test teams according to what you have, I've proposed alternatives and I've used them many times. If not, let's just get the dev to make Simulator/Gauntlet happen more frequently with inputs from players on what teams they would like to face. 

Jesus Christ I literally already covered that at the start of my last reply to you. I can see why people put you on ignore. You said that a punch in a fighting game could do 30-40% damage and that is completely false outside of very few circumstances like a final boss that is designed to be overpowered. So your counter was "Oh yeah? Look at this video of Ken doing this massive combo with a special thrown in which is totally the same as a punch!" Really, dude? This conversation is pointless.

Daredevil217

HoundofShadow said:

@Daredevil217 As for comparing training mode to trying out one car everyday at a car dealership every day, I don't think they allow you to try out the car for 24/7 or give you 24/7 access to try out cars anytime you want without any payment. Neither would they allow you to try out different models of cars every day for one month or more for free. At best, you could do it (try different cars for a while, not for 24/7). If you want do it everyday, I'm sure they will start blacklisting you. As for getting sandboxed accounts, players could do it but it's troublesome to do it because they have to switch accounts back and forth. For players with sandboxed accounts who still use their original account to play, they have different motivating factor, such as being in a top alliances or being part of the LINE group to make them play, or they are already seasoned players.

Next, this is a gacha game. The dev want players to spend. That's why players complain about dilution, never being able catch up and having to worry about roster slot cost. It's all deliberately designed to make players feel that they need to play everyday to catch up. Players don't want to spend a lot to catch up. They don't want to wait 5-10 years to champ all 5*. A 24/7 training mode with access to all characters champed will magically solve all these problems. Yes, you can't bring them to pvps or pves. However, once you have access to all champed characters and you simply want to try out different teams, you'll be stuck in that mode, unless you are in some competitive alliances.

A training mode is no different from unlocking the entire game without spending. Players are tired of seeing Mindless Ones, Sentry and DA in pves. They are also tired of seeing the same meta or boosted teams in pvps. Training mode changes that. You can pick and choose any opponents that you want. Logically, there are at least 17 million combination of enemy teams that players can choose in training mode. With over 70+ 5* and over 120 4*  to choose from, your typical players would be stuck in this mode for months and or even years without needing to spend.

Training mode makes (non-competitive) players less likely to spend and more likely to quit because there are zero pressure to catch up. So far, I don't see anyone saying that training mode will make them want to spend more. As a matter of fact, they expect it to be free. 

How does Training Mode improve spending and extend the longevity of MPQ? It doesn't. If you think training mode will improve spending and increase revenues, I'll like to hear how it is possible.

What you’re not grasping is the concept behind the analogy (obviously it’s not perfect, nor is your fighting game analogy, or any other we can come up with).  Dealerships just hand you the keys and say “have fun” because “try it before you buy it” is a money-maker. 

Why would sandboxed accounts be troublesome? If all the player wants is to unlock/play every character for free, there’s no need to “switch back and forth”. Just use the sandboxed account as their only account. No need to switch. Or… OR maybe there’s a difference between having characters and only being able to use them in a training mode where there are no rewards/rankings, and having those same characters and being able to compete with them? You make it sound like this proposed training mode gives players the ability to use the characters in matches where it actually counts for something. Which if it did, 100 dollars would be dirt cheap and most of us would pay that easily.  

A couple of other points.

1) the new developers (the old ones as well actually) have done plenty of “goodwill” things and made improvements to the game that do not directly impact their bottom line (other than the goodwill itself). So it directly counters your point that any changes they make have to be a “trade-off” or directly make them money. Until you can prove otherwise, I’d stop going to that well.

2) The fighting game analogy (as mentioned earlier) is a bad analogy. Because while I win 90% of my matches against the AI, my opponent isn’t the AI. My opponent is you and everyone else on these boards. I’m trying to clear faster in PVE. I’m trying to hit fast while minimizing getting hit in PVP (without coordinating). My other opponent is myself. I’m trying to optimize my teams to perform better each PVE. I had this whole discussion in my alliance about whether 4* Chimi or 4* Sharon is a better support for clearing fast with Shang-Chi. Would be fun to try both against the same opponents and see. But again, while I could see using a training mode for fringe cases like this, if it did get implemented I know I’d rarely use it overall, so prefer developer time get used for something more meaningful to me (like more rebalances!). 

I personally don’t like using the PVE nodes to practice because 1) you can accidentally kill shot with a crazy cascade (especially with SC) and screw up the whole event. Or, if you exit with plenty of health left on the opponents, it won’t tell you much about how long it takes to finish them.  

Bad

Daredevil217 said:

Why would sandboxed accounts be troublesome? If all the player wants is to unlock/play every character for free, there’s no need to “switch back and forth”. Just use the sandboxed account as their only account. No need to switch.  

Sandboxed accounts are troublesome because are illegal.
The right solution would be to delete that account after many warnings.
If former devs, or new ones, didn't do it can be because of several factors. Because they can't afford to examine continuosly all accounts, because it will be meaningless as infractors would repeat the process, or because they are more interested on players profiles who support the game and aren't those owning sandboxed accounts. 
If all players were sanboxing accounts the game would be already dead.
By the way, it kind of seems like HoundofShadow and me were preaching in the desert.
This game already has changed from devs once. That fact should light a bulb for someone. 

Daredevil217

My understanding is that sandboxed accounts aren’t illegal. You get sandboxed by by the developers (they know about it because they are the ones who do it) by doing something “illegal”. If I’m wrong someone correct me on that. So again, if that’s all people cared about (playing characters but not being able to compete/play with others, I assume they would choose that route.

Godzillafan67

Until this thread, I've never wanted a training mode. But as I thought about it, I realized that I have been accepting a "not for me yet" approach whenever people would post videos of amazing 5* action  or 4*/5* teams that I can't put together (I still haven't champed 49 of the 127 4*s). I've read @Daredevil217's 5* ranking list, but that's all theory for me.

If there were a training mode where I could pick anybody, select their cover count/distribution and level, then I could see which characters I want to chase. When we tell newbs that Juggs, Grocket, and Polaris will make their PvE easier, they could check it out. It would be fun to pit some of the annoying SCL10 nodes against each other! 

I suppose that the training mode is all that some people would require to get fulfillment from MPQ, but I think that most people want to collect and grow their roster "for real". $99 is a cost-prohibitive entry price for me, though I'd consider $5 or $10 for lifetime access.