**** Black Knight (Dane Whitman) ****

fight4thedream

**Mod note: Please keep the thread on topic. Thank you. 

Bad

It's a modern new 4* character. He has:
- resurrection
- spams protects

- spams charged tiles

- destroys a row line

-destroys special tiles without generating enemy AP

- AoE ignoring protect

- airborne and passive damage to other enemy
- healing

So what else did you wanted?
More damage?

Blackstone

bbigler said:

Blackstone said:

bbigler said:

LavaManLee said:

Blackstone said:

Or, maybe the people who made and tested the character can jump in and tell us the point of this guy.

The devs used to do this for a new character.  It was actually pretty nice to hear the thought process behind a character.  Then they stopped doing this and never explained why.

(Dear mods: This is a fictitious conversation)

Devs: Hey everyone, we have an exciting new character that takes advantage of CD & Repeater tiles!  She can drain AP in 2 colors, make loads of attack tiles while removing enemy SAPs and do lots of passive team health bursts!  She can even instantly resolve friendly CD & Repeater tiles too.  You guys will love her.  We can’t wait to see the team combos you all come up with.  She can help you through really tough battles.  Enjoy!

Players: Abby is trash! Back to hoarding until the devs eventually release something good.  Do they even play their own game?  How can they release such bad characters?

Devs: Fine! We’re never telling you again what a character is for, you’ll have to figure it out on your own.  

Saying she's trash is not the same as complaining about being told the intent of her design. 

Completely different issues. 

Which means you're "fictitious conversation" is irrelevant and only serves to depict the devs as petulant and irrational. 

It's like a child saying "if you don't like my drawing, you can't play with my toys".

If you're down with the devs, though, could you ask them why they did this to the community voted character?

The point I was trying to make is that if the devs told us what a character was designed for (meaning team makeups), we would still be very critical and judgmental, generally speaking bad about the new character.  This would obviously offend the devs, because we just called their new baby ugly.  

I think that’s why they don’t talk to us; we’re overly critical of everything they do.  

... So, make prettier babies.

I'm actually giving them the benefit of the doubt by assuming they would want their community voted character to be well received. 

As in, there's something awesome BK brings to the game, and I'm just not seeing it.

Calling out a poorly made character isn't Just bring critical.  They don't talk to us because they don't need to. They're making money either way.

You're welcome to do the white knight thing for them, I've stated my opinion, and asked my question.  You're welcome to have the last word as I have nothing to add at the moment.

rainkingucd

HoundofShadow said:

Just when you thought his damage is bad, here comes a double whammy: he's not a feeder.

Thanks for that.  I was starting to chase him hard on the assumption I could finish Sersi.  Now I can relax and go back to casual play

Blackstone

Bad said:

It's a modern new 4* character. He has:
- resurrection
- spams protects

- spams charged tiles

- destroys a row line

-destroys special tiles without generating enemy AP

- AoE ignoring protect

- airborne and passive damage to other enemy
- healing

So what else did you wanted?
More damage?

... That's a long list, I'm just not convinced he'll do any of it well, And most of that comes with an "if".

Yes, better damage would be nice on a 4*.

Again, I'm not saying he's trash, I'm saying I don't get it, and asking for more info.

Anyway, not trying to get into arguments.  I'll just wait until I have him covered and do some experimenting to see if I can find a team I wouldn't rather have someone else on.

HoundofShadow

I usually focus on one or two abilities of each character that allows the best synergy. In this case, I'll focus on his passive yellow ability.

Besides Bishop/4* Beast, I think he synergises really well with Karolina Dean/4* Beast. She can turn his protect tiles into strike tiles which increases his air attack. On top of that, she increases his healing by a certain %, up to 35%. 4* Beast will be the ap generator in the background.

This is how I imagine things play out:

Black Knight goes airborne ans put 5 protect tiles out and 5 charged tiles every 3rd turn. Karolina will be converting protect tiles to strike while she's airborne. And those strike tiles increase his air attack. In the meantime, Beast is dishing out attacks with his huge increase in match damage and his blue to stun two random enemies for 2 turns. On top of that, he can convert 4 basic tiles to blue charged tiles. Both of them have cds based ability which also help Black Knight to destroy charged tiles.

I understand Black Knight isn't your typical Polaris/BRB where you can make any match with protect tiles while watching netflix, or your typical SC team that finishes matches quickly.

To me, all these different abilities, good or bad, are like puzzles to create the best team(s)/synergies available for each character. If all we get are meta or good teams all the time, there isn't much of a challenge.

Seph1roth5

Problem I see is the damage is too low AND the powers cost too much (yeah yeah yellow got reduced).  So you're paying a lot for something already meh.  What's the point of an immortality character if they're not that great?  Rather he have a suicide power that bumped my real characters up lol.

This happens EVERY new character that's unimpressive lol.  People criticize it and the other side thinks we want every character to be ultra meta craziness and get all hippie "every character is good and has a place!."

I don't expect each 4* to be as awesome as Polaris, but the people defending his **** numbers seem to be really grasping at straws here.  I guess he might be good if you're suuuuuper new and have no real options?  I mean, seriously who's going to go anywhere with a 4* team of beast/karolina lol.

bbigler

I try to be as level headed as possible when evaluating a new character.  Comparing them to the rest of the tier is a good start.  Only comparing to the top meta isn’t fair.  But every character can do something unique and special.  But that doesn’t mean every character is “good” or will improve your performance.  

Looking for the best combos with that new character can show you their true potential and use in the game.  But it seems like too many people here skip that step and judge them unfairly.  Of course, all of this discussion needs to be put to the test in the game.  

With that being said, I think BK is overly weak and it’s not easy finding a team where he can excel.  His best potential lies in his yellow power which creates lots of protects and charged tiles, AND it can be triggered by other characters sending him airborne.  Perhaps someone can find a way to exploit that?  

To be clear, I’m not defending BK and I wish the devs gave us a much better character given the hype.  

Daniel2121

Bad said:

It's a modern new 4* character. He has:
- resurrection
- spams protects

- spams charged tiles

- destroys a row line

-destroys special tiles without generating enemy AP

- AoE ignoring protect

- airborne and passive damage to other enemy
- healing

So what else did you wanted?
More damage?

I don't want to be a prick, but there are characters that do many of those things while still dealing real damage.

I think the real reason why we are disappointed is that BK was supposed to be a fan favorite. He was voted the most in a poll (I voted for him too), for crying out loud.

I'm fine with him not being a meta defining guy, but I would like him to be at least decent.

To me he's basically a worse Ikaris that creates charged tiles instead of actually doing damage.

KGB

In addition to his weak stats, he's not a feeder either which would at least have semi-redeemed him enough that he'd be worth accumulating levels on for the Sersi covers.

KGB

Daniel2121

bbigler said:

I try to be as level headed as possible when evaluating a new character.  Comparing them to the rest of the tier is a good start.  Only comparing to the top meta isn’t fair.  But every character can do something unique and special.  But that doesn’t mean every character is “good” or will improve your performance.  

Looking for the best combos with that new character can show you their true potential and use in the game.  But it seems like too many people here skip that step and judge them unfairly.  Of course, all of this discussion needs to be put to the test in the game.  

With that being said, I think BK is overly weak and it’s not easy finding a team where he can excel.  His best potential lies in his yellow power which creates lots of protects and charged tiles, AND it can be triggered by other characters sending him airborne.  Perhaps someone can find a way to exploit that?  

To be clear, I’m not defending BK and I wish the devs gave us a much better character given the hype.  

I think Throg can make him work, but not much beyond that. Of course, because BK doesn't do real damage here, it's up to Throg and/or the other partner to do the actual heavylifting in game.

Other than that I agree 100% with what you said here.

TheRiddler

 Its an interesting character in that there is so much there and yet I don't know if any of it is worth a spot on a team over any other character. Kinda like a jack of all trades and master of none type of deal.

And I usually look at 4* characters through the lens that there are 120+ of them in the game so if one isn't that great then oh well. But this was a fan selected poll character. So you would think that the expectation there would be to make the character pretty decent. And then that same character also not being a feeder.... salt on the wound.

He does a lot but there are a lot of stipulations in there as well

He has immortality. If you can keep firing that black at 7 AP and protect that tile.

He does up to 5 protects per turn while airborne. This is his best power hands down and beyond reasonably priced at 5 yellow AP. The only downside here would be that if you are planning on keeping him airborne then you won't be able to fire off and get the effects of his black or green but once every 3 turns when he lands.

He puts out charged tiles. But you gotta fire off 9 Green AP or return from being airborne. So I can't see him flooding the board without a partner doing the same. Also another thing to consider here is that charged tiles aren't team specific.... so its just as likely that a character with such low damage output doesn't benefit from charged tiles because their opponents could use them just as easily to do even more damage.

He destroys a row of tiles. When you fire off 9 Green Ap and there are 4 or more charged tiles on the board.

He destroys enemy special tiles. When you fire off 9 Green AP and there are 6 or more charged tiles on the board.

He does AoE that ignores protect tiles. When you fire off 9 Green AP and the max damage is 738. Which means that has to be used with a booster to even register as having any effect.

Passive damage. You gotta be airborne and its very low which means it needs to be boosted.

Healing. But only when you fire off his black and have that countdown tile on the board when a countdown tile reaches 0. So you need other characters with countdowns.

So with all that in mind my questions are who does he work with in a pick 2, in a pick 3 and in both 4* and 5* lineups. And in PVE and PVP. And can these teams get going quick or survive if they require dragging out a match.

The partners you want will be ones that do some combination of damage or boost damage (because he doesnt), have a good amount of health otherwise teams will just target them first knowing that Black Knight doesn't do much damage, create countdown tiles, benefit or use charge tiles and benefit or use protect tiles.

I'm seeing some teams that could work but all require seemingly much more work than other common team of the same ilk. For example Black Knight, Blob and Polaris could work as a team that replicates protects and then BK and Blob heal off those protects. But this is a long play team that would have to ramp up damage.

I guess that is the main issue is that I can find things he does so that he would seemingly work with x team. But the problem is there are a handful of characters that also do that same thing except better.

Bad

No one said he is going to be fast.
But he has things pretty unique and there could be interesting sinergies. 

About being the winner of the poll, personally I voted deathlok. He could be the damager character easy to play and close to meta people are asking for.
I wonder how many people actually knowing BK voted for him. BK appears in Eternals without actually fighting and promises to be good in the future, nothing more than that, so this character is the comic version. 
BK is a swordman and a strategian, and that's what devs actually reflected in this character design, and it's good. 
Perhaps it would be better to blame the fans who voted the character, if the result is not appealing to many people.
Actually nowadays don't happen weird things anymore, like making the best support character one irrelevant character like okoye.

Daniel2121

Idk. I say that Ikaris has the flight and immortality down pat. He damages the back enemy while airborne as well, and that damage can be amped by Apoc, Okoye or whatever.

And his immortality only costs 9 yellow AP and he can revive at full health with his yellow at 5 covers. And when he's revived he's immediately airborne too. For more turns than BK is, too.

BK creates protects and charged tiles, but so what. You still want Ikaris more. Better flight, better immortality, and some actual damage.

And he feeds iHulk as well.

Bad

There are already many sinergies. 
Focusing on his protect spamming side: brb, polaris, Dbeast, lockjaw. 
Focusing on his destroying charged tiles passive: ronan and negasonic. Just make charged tiles, BK will destroy 4 charged tiles and negasonic will destroy 2 tiles per charged tile, huge cascade incoming.
Change ronan for red hulk, for +-900 damage hulk will make cds destroying 6 tiles: take a seat and popcorns and watch the board cascading.
Possible to swicht rhulk for hulk 3*, too.

Daniel2121

Bad said:

There are already many sinergies. 
Focusing on his protect spamming side: brb, polaris, Dbeast, lockjaw. 
Focusing on his destroying charged tiles passive: ronan and negasonic. Just make charged tiles, BK will destroy 4 charged tiles and negasonic will destroy 2 tiles per charged tile, huge cascade incoming.
Change ronan for red hulk, for +-900 damage hulk will make cds destroying 6 tiles: take a seat and popcorns and watch the board cascading.
Possible to swicht rhulk for hulk 3*, too.

For the countdowns synergy to work, he must deploy his own countdown first. Knight Time doesn't do anything with countdowns.

Charged tile synergy seems better but charged tiles can go both ways, so. Throg is the only real partner for that as he can both create charged tiles and send him airborne for that to work.

HoundofShadow

Green power has the best animation.

I've tried Bishop and Karolina Dean. They worked as expected. I'm waiting for day 4 node to sub SC with 4* Beast.

Black Knight/Throg/Bishop also synergies with one another pretty well too.

bbigler

I think I know the conversation they had when designing the green power….

How about 9 AP so it can’t be spammed…
That’s a good start….
Since it’s green, let’s make it an AOE…
OK, that’s a standard 1000 dmg per AP…
So that equals a 3,000 AOE….
But let’s make it ignore protect tiles, people hate those
OK, so bring that down to 2,400 AOE…
But he has a charged tile theme, so let’s create 2 or 3…
Good idea, so it will be an 1,800 AOE…
But let’s add in some board shake, so destroy a row…
Will it deal extra dmg or gain AP?
Of course not….
And bring that down to 1,200 AOE…
But let’s remove some enemy specials too!…
OK, that brings it down to a 600 AOE

Hmm, 600 AOE is pretty low, can we bump that up?  

If we give it a downside, Yes….
How about requiring charged tiles for destroying a row and enemy specials?
Perfect, that will encourage charged tile use…
So, how about a 700 AOE then?
No, we can’t use round numbers in the game…looks unprofessional 
How about 738?
Where’d you get that number?
It’s on the clock….
Works for me…
What a second, this power does a lot, do you think it’s too good?
Maybe….
It’s the fans choice, just give it to them…
OK, but only at 5 covers though…
Agreed.

Daniel2121

So, I just bypassed BK's immortality. He was the last member of the enemy team to die. He had his black countdown tile out and active. I brought him down to 1 health, stunned him with Polaris. His countdown still had like 2 turns left but he went down as soon as I made a match after I stunned him. I still don't know if his death was due to match damage amplified from my Polaris' strikes, or if it was because his countdown's immortality effect was disabled from the stun.

But alas, poor Dane, he died then and there.

Xception81

I killed him while he was stunned, with his countdown out, without any strikes on the board.