Please Nerf Wizard Class

Enigma

TomB said:

 

So far I've yet to run into any trouble at all with Wizard Class, which is why I had such a flip answer earlier in the thread. Sounds like it's got a pretty powerful effect though. I should probably be trying to build something abusive out of it, so I'll try to get to work on that right away.

Yup, I was inspired by this thread to cobble something together....

Kiora:

Wizard Class

Velomachus

Sarulf

Black staff of Water deep

Masterful Replication

Practical Research

Eureka Moment

Serpentine Curve

Field Trip

Nissa's Revelation

What do you think, did I make your naughty list jobob? 😈

Ampersand

I run Wizard Class every now and then, and it's fun, but not game breaking. To chime in with the others who have said as much, I really don't come across many WC decks, and if I do, they really don't do much against me. I am not specifically countering it, but as TomB said, I do also tend to pack support destruction in just about every deck.

It just really isn't much of an issue the way Song, Zenith, or Naru completely dominated and warped the meta. Personally, I really don't think Song or Zenith needed any changes. Naru, however, was completely busted and needed to be reworked.


Honestly, I'm much more concerned about the effect of Deny, Restrain, and Time Bubbles once TeferiPMA is on sale for gold and players have time to get some of the powerful BluePMA cards. 

LoboX01

I think loops leave a bad taste in the mouth, as it feels you can't really do anything once the loop goes off, and in this case the loop is slow, as it chips away your life little by little, just like the other loop with Curse of Vitality.

As many others said, I don't think the solution is necessarily nerf the cards, but make the loop-stop mechanism really work, and stop Greg's loop. In a way though, this is almost equivalent of cheating, as you as player have the chance to go through your loop, but we want Greg to stop the loop, so we don't lose to it.

Losing should be part of the game, we can't expect that we will have 100% win ratio. And even though losing to a loop is frustrating like hell, there are many other cards currently that we can lose against, and feel maybe as much helpless as against a loop deck. Garruk 3 + Gaea will always be a thing, since GR is perm standard, Greg can have a lucky cascade cast Gaea turn 1, and heck even use his 2nd same turn, if we don't have non-targeted removal we are dead in turn 2. Koth can drop Tiamat at us, and again with a lucky cascade drop the reinforced Inferno same turn with Haste and Double strike, or we can a face a turn 1 Angel of Destiny (happened to me this weekend). Should we mention Lily Death Majesty and Tainted Adversary, or Samut and Rem?

How dominant currently WC loop deck in standard? I don't know. I run into it more often in ZE or TG, less often in coalition events where the objectives make it more difficult to go with a WC deck if you want to meet the secondary. There are objectives that makes it possible, and yes there are people who simply don't care. Personally I could not care less if I lose to WC in ZE or TG, move on to the next match. In coalition event, it is different, even though I have to add that going perfect in these coalition events does not make a huge difference in rewards, so it is really the frustration level only.

Tezzeret

jobob said:

Tezzeret said:

It's magic the gathering... let's just let .O.P oppressive combos be a.thing! Nothing in the game is unstoppable. The Meta shift...i used to see tons of.wizzard class decks. People curated  decks to combat against it, those becamethe norm, then decks to combat those decks surfaces... so on and so forth!

Ther is no denying the culture Goz and Nalthazar have created with their videos. Currently I've just been watching Goz and  Nalthazar videos for.the sole reason that Sooooo many players will blindly copy that deck and "sleeve  it up" for.the next event.

There is no denying they are fantastic decks. ( And their content is.fun)  but it's like a.preview of what I'm likely  to face..
 Just build a deck.to counter whatever they create and most matches are E.P.L.S

Again… let’s just rename it “Build a Deck to Counter Wizard Class and Run it Every Match Until You Die of Boredome: Puzzle Quest” in the App Store if that’s how you feel about it.

You must have never gone to a FRIDAY night magic and fought 8 esper control  decks running the EXACT SAME card for card deck list  for 3 months straight..... 

Lol. 
Naw dude I get it. Playing the same deck over and over is exhausting but that's just magic. If this game ever gets more of a following that problem will get worse before it gets better. I hear ya tho.

Tezzeret

jtwood said:

Admittedly, Oktagon/D3 has nerfed some combo cards recently, like Song, BSZ, and Naru just to name the ones that come to the top of my mind. So it's not unreasonable to focus on Wizard Class in that regard. But those cards specifically were altered so that they didn't warp the game as soon as they hit the board, which made it hard to respond to them.

I have yet to see Wizard Class break the game the turn it comes down. Granted, I haven't been playing as much lately, but it sure seems like a card that needs some inertia to get going. And if I have that right, then it means you have time to deal with it, and that means it's balanced by this game's established precedent for Standard-level power.

Feel free to correct me if I'm off base.

Damn I miss broke  naru... Im gonna wager the only correction or nerf that will.happen soon is on Kalhini  garden. Woah what a beast! ( I hope.they.dont) i think people are gonna get tired of endless fatty big big elementals  from just a land )

jtwood

Tezzeret said:

jobob said:

Tezzeret said:

It's magic the gathering... let's just let .O.P oppressive combos be a.thing! Nothing in the game is unstoppable. The Meta shift...i used to see tons of.wizzard class decks. People curated  decks to combat against it, those becamethe norm, then decks to combat those decks surfaces... so on and so forth!

Ther is no denying the culture Goz and Nalthazar have created with their videos. Currently I've just been watching Goz and  Nalthazar videos for.the sole reason that Sooooo many players will blindly copy that deck and "sleeve  it up" for.the next event.

There is no denying they are fantastic decks. ( And their content is.fun)  but it's like a.preview of what I'm likely  to face..
 Just build a deck.to counter whatever they create and most matches are E.P.L.S

Again… let’s just rename it “Build a Deck to Counter Wizard Class and Run it Every Match Until You Die of Boredome: Puzzle Quest” in the App Store if that’s how you feel about it.

You must have never gone to a FRIDAY night magic and fought 8 esper control  decks running the EXACT SAME card for card deck list  for 3 months straight..... 

Lol. 
Naw dude I get it. Playing the same deck over and over is exhausting but that's just magic. If this game ever gets more of a following that problem will get worse before it gets better. I hear ya tho.

haha I wrote - and deleted - this same train of thought a few times before deciding to take a different tact.

But I totally agree. This is just part of Magic. It's been this way for nearly 30 years and ... god willing? ... it will be this way for another 30 more.

jobob

andrewvanmarle said:

jobob said:

Okay, well can we at least get the name of the app changed to “MakeABoringDeckToCounterWizardClass: Puzzle Quest” ?

You know, just for accuracy’s sake?


I’m not sure what you mean about you need to be flexible if you want to win every game?  Did you mean to type “you need to be INflexible” ?  Because that’s what the people are advocating against WC. “You have to include these one or two cards, or play your own WC deck to win.” That’s the opposite of being flexible.  Being flexible is the fun part of the game, and that’s the part WC ruins.


Also… the moment a card has an answer, it stops being nerf worthy?  So if there was a 150/150 red creature, with flying, haste, double-strike, unblockable, a mana cost of 1… you would argue it shoudln’t be nerfed becuase Suppression Bonds?  I’m sorry, sometimes cards need a nerf even if there is a counter, because they are unbalanced and un-fun.

I'll diregard that first remark, doesn't help the discussion in any way.

What i mean by being flexible is knowing that if you play against a specific colour PW you may have to switch your PW or deck to conbat the risks that that PW may pose. it means that YOU are flexible by changing your strategy to suit the situation. 

What are you trying to prove with your over exxagerated example? Sorry  but trying to prove your point with specious arguments is just...that.


I don't run into wizard class decks that often to consider it meta warping, 

ambrosio191 said:

» show previous quotes

I'd rather face a loop deck that I know I cant win against than a control deck that gives the hope of winning but never being able to break through.  In either case I just quit out and start a new fight, but a loop deck is far easier to recognize, and thus quicker, to quit.

Yup… really says a lot about the card that the best thing people can say about it is, “it lets you quickly realize you should just quit.” Seriously, how is it even a question that a nerf is in order?

So anytime you run into a game that you can't win and would quit out of is one where a nerf is needed? then i want to nerf hixus in a corner........

How are you not running either enough conversion or support destruction to make corner Hixus unwinnable?

Again, I don’t see how having to run ToT or Roiling Vortex (which limits your flexibility considerably) every time you see a blue PW is somehow being more flexible. It’s locking you in, which is the opposite,

My extreme example was to show how absurd it is to say that as long as a card has a counter, it isn’t nerf worthy. Obviously, that’s not correct.

jobob

jtwood said:

Admittedly, Oktagon/D3 has nerfed some combo cards recently, like Song, BSZ, and Naru just to name the ones that come to the top of my mind. So it's not unreasonable to focus on Wizard Class in that regard. But those cards specifically were altered so that they didn't warp the game as soon as they hit the board, which made it hard to respond to them.

I have yet to see Wizard Class break the game the turn it comes down. Granted, I haven't been playing as much lately, but it sure seems like a card that needs some inertia to get going. And if I have that right, then it means you have time to deal with it, and that means it's balanced by this game's established precedent for Standard-level power.

Feel free to correct me if I'm off base.

It’s pretty similar to the pre-nerf song in that it does need some cards to cast with it, but it is still a win when it goes out, and is more reliable than Song was, since matches can’t remove it and it doesn’t reinforce, it just puts out more copies that stack with itself.

jobob

Ampersand said:

I run Wizard Class every now and then, and it's fun, but not game breaking. To chime in with the others who have said as much, I really don't come across many WC decks, and if I do, they really don't do much against me. I am not specifically countering it, but as TomB said, I do also tend to pack support destruction in just about every deck.

It just really isn't much of an issue the way Song, Zenith, or Naru completely dominated and warped the meta. Personally, I really don't think Song or Zenith needed any changes. Naru, however, was completely busted and needed to be reworked.


Honestly, I'm much more concerned about the effect of Deny, Restrain, and Time Bubbles once TeferiPMA is on sale for gold and players have time to get some of the powerful BluePMA cards. 

I don’t see how people aren’t running into these decks more… maybe I’m just unlucky.

I agree Song didn’t need a nerf… but if it had been this powerful, it would have. I played a lot of Song decks, both with and against… none as powerful as WC decks.

I like to carry support destruction too, but it’s hard to put enough in to counter a good WC deck. Frankly, it’s impossible a lot of the time since it wins the turn it goes out so you don’t have a chance to destroy it.

jobob

Tezzeret said:

jobob said:

Tezzeret said:

It's magic the gathering... let's just let .O.P oppressive combos be a.thing! Nothing in the game is unstoppable. The Meta shift...i used to see tons of.wizzard class decks. People curated  decks to combat against it, those becamethe norm, then decks to combat those decks surfaces... so on and so forth!

Ther is no denying the culture Goz and Nalthazar have created with their videos. Currently I've just been watching Goz and  Nalthazar videos for.the sole reason that Sooooo many players will blindly copy that deck and "sleeve  it up" for.the next event.

There is no denying they are fantastic decks. ( And their content is.fun)  but it's like a.preview of what I'm likely  to face..
 Just build a deck.to counter whatever they create and most matches are E.P.L.S

Again… let’s just rename it “Build a Deck to Counter Wizard Class and Run it Every Match Until You Die of Boredome: Puzzle Quest” in the App Store if that’s how you feel about it.

You must have never gone to a FRIDAY night magic and fought 8 esper control  decks running the EXACT SAME card for card deck list  for 3 months straight..... 

Lol. 
Naw dude I get it. Playing the same deck over and over is exhausting but that's just magic. If this game ever gets more of a following that problem will get worse before it gets better. I hear ya tho.

Ha, no I didn’t, but that would bore me to tears, I think. Just kind of sucks the fun out of it.

jobob

Enigma said:

TomB said:

 

So far I've yet to run into any trouble at all with Wizard Class, which is why I had such a flip answer earlier in the thread. Sounds like it's got a pretty powerful effect though. I should probably be trying to build something abusive out of it, so I'll try to get to work on that right away.

Yup, I was inspired by this thread to cobble something together....

Kiora:

Wizard Class

Velomachus

Sarulf

Black staff of Water deep

Masterful Replication

Practical Research

Eureka Moment

Serpentine Curve

Field Trip

Nissa's Revelation

What do you think, did I make your naughty list jobob? 😈

Needs work. You can’t run Velomachus with Kiora. Sarulf is kind of counter productive since you don’t want to exile WC. Masterful replication is legacy anyway, so if you’re building a legacy deck, I don’t care regardless, as legacy is full of broke combos.


Anyway, I’ll offer a counter-proposal that’s a win-win… come join our family of coalitions. They can teach you a ton, and you can learn how to build fun and effective decks and win without cheesing the game like a talentless hack. You get better, and it’s one less WC deck out there to troll people.

jobob

LoboX01 said:

I think loops leave a bad taste in the mouth, as it feels you can't really do anything once the loop goes off, and in this case the loop is slow, as it chips away your life little by little, just like the other loop with Curse of Vitality.

As many others said, I don't think the solution is necessarily nerf the cards, but make the loop-stop mechanism really work, and stop Greg's loop. In a way though, this is almost equivalent of cheating, as you as player have the chance to go through your loop, but we want Greg to stop the loop, so we don't lose to it.

Losing should be part of the game, we can't expect that we will have 100% win ratio. And even though losing to a loop is frustrating like hell, there are many other cards currently that we can lose against, and feel maybe as much helpless as against a loop deck. Garruk 3 + Gaea will always be a thing, since GR is perm standard, Greg can have a lucky cascade cast Gaea turn 1, and heck even use his 2nd same turn, if we don't have non-targeted removal we are dead in turn 2. Koth can drop Tiamat at us, and again with a lucky cascade drop the reinforced Inferno same turn with Haste and Double strike, or we can a face a turn 1 Angel of Destiny (happened to me this weekend). Should we mention Lily Death Majesty and Tainted Adversary, or Samut and Rem?

How dominant currently WC loop deck in standard? I don't know. I run into it more often in ZE or TG, less often in coalition events where the objectives make it more difficult to go with a WC deck if you want to meet the secondary. There are objectives that makes it possible, and yes there are people who simply don't care. Personally I could not care less if I lose to WC in ZE or TG, move on to the next match. In coalition event, it is different, even though I have to add that going perfect in these coalition events does not make a huge difference in rewards, so it is really the frustration level only.

That’s fair, it’s not as dominant in the coalition events (depending on the event… I’ve still run into it multiple times in the same event before). But some days on ZE it’s seriously like every other match. Which really sucks, because ZE can be a ton of fun… lower pressure, and like you said, I don’t mind losing (within reason), and you get to try out some new and different deck ideas. Which is why I don’t get people running the same deck over and over. At least Song gave you a lot of flexibility.

ambrosio191

jobob said:

That’s fair, it’s not as dominant in the coalition events (depending on the event… I’ve still run into it multiple times in the same event before). But some days on ZE it’s seriously like every other match. Which really sucks, because ZE can be a ton of fun… lower pressure, and like you said, I don’t mind losing (within reason), and you get to try out some new and different deck ideas. Which is why I don’t get people running the same deck over and over. At least Song gave you a lot of flexibility.

People likely run WC in ZE because it's a tedious event that takes a lot of games to win.  It's not so much people find joy in running WC (though Im sure some do) it's that they dont have to pay attention and can blitz through games.

Enigma

jobob said:

Enigma said:

TomB said:

 

So far I've yet to run into any trouble at all with Wizard Class, which is why I had such a flip answer earlier in the thread. Sounds like it's got a pretty powerful effect though. I should probably be trying to build something abusive out of it, so I'll try to get to work on that right away.

Yup, I was inspired by this thread to cobble something together....

Kiora:

Wizard Class

Velomachus

Sarulf

Black staff of Water deep

Masterful Replication

Practical Research

Eureka Moment

Serpentine Curve

Field Trip

Nissa's Revelation

What do you think, did I make your naughty list jobob? 😈

Needs work. You can’t run Velomachus with Kiora. Sarulf is kind of counter productive since you don’t want to exile WC. Masterful replication is legacy anyway, so if you’re building a legacy deck, I don’t care regardless, as legacy is full of broke combos.


Anyway, I’ll offer a counter-proposal that’s a win-win… come join our family of coalitions. They can teach you a ton, and you can learn how to build fun and effective decks and win without cheesing the game like a talentless hack. You get better, and it’s one less WC deck out there to troll people.

Whoops, by Velomachus I meant Old Gnawbone.  Get all that treasure out, pump Sarulf and Masterful Rep. and Blackstaff.  And honestly, I cringe more when I see and opponent play Old Gnawbone than Wizard Class.  That one, and the creature that gives all other creatures protection, and the one that drains a hand to create 100 zombies, and the dino that creates beasts, and Angel of Destiny...  All have answers tho.  including Wizard Class. And ya know, I enjoy playing all of them, so I'm not going appeal to the higher powers to get them banned because I know other people enjoy playing them too.

And I'm good on joining your coalition group, especially after being referred to as "talentless hack".  Sometimes I like building challenging decks with cards that hardly get played, other times cheap and easy is the way to go 'cus you know you'll probably get more Ws.  To each their own.

Tezzeret

What if this thread accidentally  inspires a bunch of people to build and create wizard  class decks lol.

 I got the red advisary,  now I kinds wanna go back and  build a new Wizz deck.

jobob

Ran into two WC decks right off the bat in this weekend’s event. These are Platinum players, they should know better.

I’ll admit, for a moment I actually started to wonder if it was really that bad…

But, nope, it’s a fact. Wizard Class is the worst card in standard. BY FAR.

PLEASE NERF WIZARD CLASS.

jobob

Enigma said:

And I'm good on joining your coalition group, especially after being referred to as "talentless hack".  Sometimes I like building challenging decks with cards that hardly get played, other times cheap and easy is the way to go 'cus you know you'll probably get more Ws.  To each their own.

Well, now, don’t get your feelings hurt about it- I didn’t refer to you as a talentless hack. I said that winning by cheesing the game is going about it like a talentless hack. And if you do know how to play the game, then you know it’s true too.

Also, do you think you should be so defensive when it was obviously a troll post you made, as evidenced by the devil smiley and “did I make your naughty list” comment?

TomB

jobob said:

"winning by cheesing the game is going about it like a talentless hack."

I'm curious - Did you find Song to be "cheesy"? How about STV, or BSZ? The king of cheese (arguably) Omni? Is everyone who uses powerful cards like those talentless hacks?

When I look at it I try to remember that the person who built the deck wasn't building it to impress me, most likely. They were building it to beat Greg as efficiently as possible, and if they found useful combos that I could look at and see some positive card interaction with so much the better.

I try to learn from every loss...

jobob

TomB said:

jobob said:

"winning by cheesing the game is going about it like a talentless hack."

I'm curious - Did you find Song to be "cheesy"? How about STV, or BSZ? The king of cheese (arguably) Omni? Is everyone who uses powerful cards like those talentless hacks?

When I look at it I try to remember that the person who built the deck wasn't building it to impress me, most likely. They were building it to beat Greg as efficiently as possible, and if they found useful combos that I could look at and see some positive card interaction with so much the better.

I try to learn from every loss...

Well, to be fair, I don’t remember Omni in standard. Maybe it had rotated out when I started or I was low enough level I didn’t come up against it.

The others though… nowhere near as bad as Wizard Class.  Plus they can be used in more interesting ways.  I’m talking about the WC decks that are nothing but draw and convert spells.  They are just so boring and lacking in creativity and, sure, there’s a couple counters to them, but they restrict your deck as well.

jtwood

jobob said:

Well, to be fair, I don’t remember Omni in standard. Maybe it had rotated out when I started or I was low enough level I didn’t come up against it.

The others though… nowhere near as bad as Wizard Class.  Plus they can be used in more interesting ways.  I’m talking about the WC decks that are nothing but draw and convert spells.  They are just so boring and lacking in creativity and, sure, there’s a couple counters to them, but they restrict your deck as well.

These exact words are uttered about some deck in Magic and its derivative properties year in and year out. Rather than complaining about it, it's better to accept they are an artifact of these types of game. Otherwise, it's like being upset that the tilt of the earth causes seasons when you cannot change anything about their inevitable movements.