Please Nerf Wizard Class

Gormhaus

I like wizard class. I use it in 1 deck and i dont mind if its in a deck that beats me.  Loops can be frustrating but if i think gregs loop is going to beat me i just quit.  Justy 2 c.

andrewvanmarle

jtwood said:

I like when there are powerful cards that Greg can play, and I have to actually worry about losing

Even if it's for annoying reasons

:shrug:

This! 

I'm sorry jobob you are having a bad time playing against some decks, but that is also the spice of the game: sometimes you get in a situation that you can't win, it's the same with paper. 

By the way there are other cards and pw's that punish looping decks I just gave you a quick example. 

And yeah if you want to win each game then be flexible with your decks and pw's. 

And no I disagree with you, the moment a card has an answer it stops being nerf worthy. 

Enigma

These have been suggested many many times (is anyone on the support or development teams listening!?!?):
1) targeted support removal, for God's sake, please.

2) all supports should loose shield when an opponent matches it.  this is puzzle quest, right?  part of the puzzle, especially if you find you don't have enough support removal, is arranging or converting gems to destroy problematic supports by matches.  making this impossible (not to mention the "cannot be reinforced" clause and resulting stacked effects) is unbalanced and really does need to be addressed somehow.
IMO

I'm definitely not holding my breath that any of this will ever be acknowledged by anyone that can do anything about it.  Just gotta jump on the bandwagon, fight fire with fire and make all your decks full of mythics, rares, and OP cards, then outpace Greg or hope that the loop fizzles so that you can maybe get a turn or two in to stabilize... name of the game in Platinum.

jtwood

Enigma said:

These have been suggested many many times (is anyone on the support or development teams listening!?!?):
1) targeted support removal, for God's sake, please.

And my biggest argument in favor of this is that they make us click those ungodly-tiny links in PW abilities which sometimes results in me actually using the PW ability when I didn't want to. If they are okay with ungodly-tiny links in PW abilities, they should be okay with targeted support removal.

jobob

andrewvanmarle said:

jtwood said:

I like when there are powerful cards that Greg can play, and I have to actually worry about losing

Even if it's for annoying reasons

:shrug:

This! 

I'm sorry jobob you are having a bad time playing against some decks, but that is also the spice of the game: sometimes you get in a situation that you can't win, it's the same with paper. 

By the way there are other cards and pw's that punish looping decks I just gave you a quick example. 

And yeah if you want to win each game then be flexible with your decks and pw's. 

And no I disagree with you, the moment a card has an answer it stops being nerf worthy. 

Okay, well can we at least get the name of the app changed to “MakeABoringDeckToCounterWizardClass: Puzzle Quest” ?

You know, just for accuracy’s sake?


I’m not sure what you mean about you need to be flexible if you want to win every game?  Did you mean to type “you need to be INflexible” ?  Because that’s what the people are advocating against WC. “You have to include these one or two cards, or play your own WC deck to win.” That’s the opposite of being flexible.  Being flexible is the fun part of the game, and that’s the part WC ruins.


Also… the moment a card has an answer, it stops being nerf worthy?  So if there was a 150/150 red creature, with flying, haste, double-strike, unblockable, a mana cost of 1… you would argue it shoudln’t be nerfed becuase Suppression Bonds?  I’m sorry, sometimes cards need a nerf even if there is a counter, because they are unbalanced and un-fun.

jobob

jtwood said:

I like when there are powerful cards that Greg can play, and I have to actually worry about losing

Even if it's for annoying reasons

:shrug:

They should make a Greg-only card called “You May Fire When Ready” that summons a Death Star that just insta-kills you.  That should be really fun.

FWIW, I don’t mind super powerful cards that Greg can actually win with.  I just don’t like stupid cards that discourage creativity and reduce the variety of Greg decks I see.  I like losing and thinking “Wow, that was a clever deck.”  Not losing and thinking “Wow, another unoriginal dolt playing at Platinum level.”

jobob

Gormhaus said:

I like wizard class. I use it in 1 deck and i dont mind if its in a deck that beats me.  Loops can be frustrating but if i think gregs loop is going to beat me i just quit.  Justy 2 c.

I get the sentiment, but this one just feels worse than any other cheap loop I’ve ever encountered.  And yeah, I started just keeping a naughty list of the trolls who run WC looping decks and just quit the match rather than deal with it when I get matched with them.

ambrosio191

Every time one of these threads comes up begging for a card to be nerfed I wonder if I'm playing the same game as everyone else.  They make it sound like every 3rd deck they face is running the card.  In my experience, the prevalence of said card/deck is always greatly exaggerated.  Ive seen a wizard class deck maybe 5 times since the set was released.  I play at least 8 games of greg controlled pvp every day, and almost never encounter these cards/decks that need a nerf.

It always seems to be the loop decks people cry foul on too, never the aggro decks or the control decks.

I think people are so used to winning in this game that anytime they lose it must be because a card is "overpowered" (I really hate that word) and something must be done about it.

DrRuphus

@ambrosio191

I agree that demanding a nerf for every single looper cards is not the answer.
But let's face it, death by loop is the worst.
I mean I have lost to countless decks (ral spellslinger, sarkhan dragon circus, whoever runs angel of destiny etc) but seeing that bloody bar going on and on without receiving a single point of damage while time and battery slip away is the most frustrating thing ever.

ambrosio191

DrRuphus said:

@ambrosio191

I agree that demanding a nerf for every single looper cards is not the answer.
But let's face it, death by loop is the worst.
I mean I have lost to countless decks (ral spellslinger, sarkhan dragon circus, whoever runs angel of destiny etc) but seeing that bloody bar going on and on without receiving a single point of damage while time and battery slip away is the most frustrating thing ever.

I'd rather face a loop deck that I know I cant win against than a control deck that gives the hope of winning but never being able to break through.  In either case I just quit out and start a new fight, but a loop deck is far easier to recognize, and thus quicker, to quit.

ambrosio191

ambrosio191 said:

DrRuphus said:

@ambrosio191

I agree that demanding a nerf for every single looper cards is not the answer.
But let's face it, death by loop is the worst.
I mean I have lost to countless decks (ral spellslinger, sarkhan dragon circus, whoever runs angel of destiny etc) but seeing that bloody bar going on and on without receiving a single point of damage while time and battery slip away is the most frustrating thing ever.

I'd rather face a loop deck that I know I cant win against than a control deck that gives the hope of winning but never being able to break through.  In either case I just quit out and start a new fight, but a loop deck is far easier to recognize, and thus quicker, to quit.

I just faced a blue/black control deck that constantly had 2 fully charged removal cards in it's hand.  Had that been a loop deck it would have ended it 20 turns earlier, but because it was a control deck I had hope I would break through but never did.  Give me a loop deck any day compared to what I just faced.

HunterToo

Wasn’t there a PvE event where greg’s A3 was “deal 300 damage to your opponent? And the shark infested waters of Legacy are filled with unimaginative OmniHulk decks and HazDep decks, Urza/Thassa engines, and more.Standard has plenty of OP cards and combos - Phylath/Tanazir, Tainted Adversary, Tiamat dragon decks, new Ajani, new Teferi, new Nissa…and yes plenty of loop decks with WC driving them. It seems with every new set Goz or Nalthazar put out a video saying THIS could be the most powerful card/PW in the game now - seems like only last week we all dumped a gazillion pinks chasing Teferi Vanguard.
There are plenty of cards which make my heart sink when I see them, and honestly WC isn’t one of them. I’m still more concerned if my opponent gets a Hixus in a corner, or drops Sigarda on my creature. I had a rant on here myself when Test of Talents appeared in pre-release - surely ToT is a sign of the end times!

Every cycle has a few OP cards that we all build similar looking decks around, need to consider how we protect ourselves against, will miss horribly when they rotate out (Killer Instinct, I miss you!) And I get it @j@jobob you hate WC but it’s not the worst out there, it will go at some point, and there are more nightmares coming. Probably.

Tezzeret

It's magic the gathering... let's just let .O.P oppressive combos be a.thing! Nothing in the game is unstoppable. The Meta shift...i used to see tons of.wizzard class decks. People curated  decks to combat against it, those becamethe norm, then decks to combat those decks surfaces... so on and so forth!

Ther is no denying the culture Goz and Nalthazar have created with their videos. Currently I've just been watching Goz and  Nalthazar videos for.the sole reason that Sooooo many players will blindly copy that deck and "sleeve  it up" for.the next event.

There is no denying they are fantastic decks. ( And their content is.fun)  but it's like a.preview of what I'm likely  to face..
 Just build a deck.to counter whatever they create and most matches are E.P.L.S

jobob

ambrosio191 said:

Every time one of these threads comes up begging for a card to be nerfed I wonder if I'm playing the same game as everyone else.  They make it sound like every 3rd deck they face is running the card.  In my experience, the prevalence of said card/deck is always greatly exaggerated.  Ive seen a wizard class deck maybe 5 times since the set was released.  I play at least 8 games of greg controlled pvp every day, and almost never encounter these cards/decks that need a nerf.

It always seems to be the loop decks people cry foul on too, never the aggro decks or the control decks.

I think people are so used to winning in this game that anytime they lose it must be because a card is "overpowered" (I really hate that word) and something must be done about it.

If you’ve only seen 5 then you are incredibly lucky.

I agree, I hate when people use the word “overpowered,” because it’s a Lise never accurate. In this case, unfortunately, it is.

jobob

ambrosio191 said:

DrRuphus said:

@ambrosio191

I agree that demanding a nerf for every single looper cards is not the answer.
But let's face it, death by loop is the worst.
I mean I have lost to countless decks (ral spellslinger, sarkhan dragon circus, whoever runs angel of destiny etc) but seeing that bloody bar going on and on without receiving a single point of damage while time and battery slip away is the most frustrating thing ever.

I'd rather face a loop deck that I know I cant win against than a control deck that gives the hope of winning but never being able to break through.  In either case I just quit out and start a new fight, but a loop deck is far easier to recognize, and thus quicker, to quit.

Yup… really says a lot about the card that the best thing people can say about it is, “it lets you quickly realize you should just quit.” Seriously, how is it even a question that a nerf is in order?

jobob

HunterToo said:

Wasn’t there a PvE event where greg’s A3 was “deal 300 damage to your opponent? And the shark infested waters of Legacy are filled with unimaginative OmniHulk decks and HazDep decks, Urza/Thassa engines, and more.Standard has plenty of OP cards and combos - Phylath/Tanazir, Tainted Adversary, Tiamat dragon decks, new Ajani, new Teferi, new Nissa…and yes plenty of loop decks with WC driving them. It seems with every new set Goz or Nalthazar put out a video saying THIS could be the most powerful card/PW in the game now - seems like only last week we all dumped a gazillion pinks chasing Teferi Vanguard.
There are plenty of cards which make my heart sink when I see them, and honestly WC isn’t one of them. I’m still more concerned if my opponent gets a Hixus in a corner, or drops Sigarda on my creature. I had a rant on here myself when Test of Talents appeared in pre-release - surely ToT is a sign of the end times!

Every cycle has a few OP cards that we all build similar looking decks around, need to consider how we protect ourselves against, will miss horribly when they rotate out (Killer Instinct, I miss you!) And I get it @j@jobob you hate WC but it’s not the worst out there, it will go at some point, and there are more nightmares coming. Probably.

PVE is easy to plan for, though, and you know it’s just the one match.

Maybe there’s worse in standard… but I’ve yet to see it, and I play a lot of matches. Hixus and Sigarda? Come on, those aren’t anywhere near close.

And yeah, Legacy can be rough, but I think we’ve all accepted that at this point.  WC makes standard feel like legacy.

jobob

Tezzeret said:

It's magic the gathering... let's just let .O.P oppressive combos be a.thing! Nothing in the game is unstoppable. The Meta shift...i used to see tons of.wizzard class decks. People curated  decks to combat against it, those becamethe norm, then decks to combat those decks surfaces... so on and so forth!

Ther is no denying the culture Goz and Nalthazar have created with their videos. Currently I've just been watching Goz and  Nalthazar videos for.the sole reason that Sooooo many players will blindly copy that deck and "sleeve  it up" for.the next event.

There is no denying they are fantastic decks. ( And their content is.fun)  but it's like a.preview of what I'm likely  to face..
 Just build a deck.to counter whatever they create and most matches are E.P.L.S

Again… let’s just rename it “Build a Deck to Counter Wizard Class and Run it Every Match Until You Die of Boredome: Puzzle Quest” in the App Store if that’s how you feel about it.

TomB

jobob said:

Tezzeret said:

It's magic the gathering... let's just let .O.P oppressive combos be a.thing! Nothing in the game is unstoppable. The Meta shift...i used to see tons of.wizzard class decks. People curated  decks to combat against it, those becamethe norm, then decks to combat those decks surfaces... so on and so forth!

Ther is no denying the culture Goz and Nalthazar have created with their videos. Currently I've just been watching Goz and  Nalthazar videos for.the sole reason that Sooooo many players will blindly copy that deck and "sleeve  it up" for.the next event.

There is no denying they are fantastic decks. ( And their content is.fun)  but it's like a.preview of what I'm likely  to face..
 Just build a deck.to counter whatever they create and most matches are E.P.L.S

Again… let’s just rename it “Build a Deck to Counter Wizard Class and Run it Every Match Until You Die of Boredome: Puzzle Quest” in the App Store if that’s how you feel about it.

So far I've yet to run into any trouble at all with Wizard Class, which is why I had such a flip answer earlier in the thread. Sounds like it's got a pretty powerful effect though. I should probably be trying to build something abusive out of it, so I'll try to get to work on that right away.

And I don't run decks "to counter Wizard Class" or any other nasty, game defining support, but I usually run support removal in EVERY deck I make, if at all possible. There's some versatile support removal in the game right now like Mortality Spear that I try to take advantage of...Just a thought...

andrewvanmarle

jobob said:

Okay, well can we at least get the name of the app changed to “MakeABoringDeckToCounterWizardClass: Puzzle Quest” ?

You know, just for accuracy’s sake?


I’m not sure what you mean about you need to be flexible if you want to win every game?  Did you mean to type “you need to be INflexible” ?  Because that’s what the people are advocating against WC. “You have to include these one or two cards, or play your own WC deck to win.” That’s the opposite of being flexible.  Being flexible is the fun part of the game, and that’s the part WC ruins.


Also… the moment a card has an answer, it stops being nerf worthy?  So if there was a 150/150 red creature, with flying, haste, double-strike, unblockable, a mana cost of 1… you would argue it shoudln’t be nerfed becuase Suppression Bonds?  I’m sorry, sometimes cards need a nerf even if there is a counter, because they are unbalanced and un-fun.

I'll diregard that first remark, doesn't help the discussion in any way.

What i mean by being flexible is knowing that if you play against a specific colour PW you may have to switch your PW or deck to conbat the risks that that PW may pose. it means that YOU are flexible by changing your strategy to suit the situation. 

What are you trying to prove with your over exxagerated example? Sorry  but trying to prove your point with specious arguments is just...that.


I don't run into wizard class decks that often to consider it meta warping, 

ambrosio191 said:

» show previous quotes

I'd rather face a loop deck that I know I cant win against than a control deck that gives the hope of winning but never being able to break through.  In either case I just quit out and start a new fight, but a loop deck is far easier to recognize, and thus quicker, to quit.

Yup… really says a lot about the card that the best thing people can say about it is, “it lets you quickly realize you should just quit.” Seriously, how is it even a question that a nerf is in order?

So anytime you run into a game that you can't win and would quit out of is one where a nerf is needed? then i want to nerf hixus in a corner........

jtwood

Admittedly, Oktagon/D3 has nerfed some combo cards recently, like Song, BSZ, and Naru just to name the ones that come to the top of my mind. So it's not unreasonable to focus on Wizard Class in that regard. But those cards specifically were altered so that they didn't warp the game as soon as they hit the board, which made it hard to respond to them.

I have yet to see Wizard Class break the game the turn it comes down. Granted, I haven't been playing as much lately, but it sure seems like a card that needs some inertia to get going. And if I have that right, then it means you have time to deal with it, and that means it's balanced by this game's established precedent for Standard-level power.

Feel free to correct me if I'm off base.