Please Nerf Wizard Class

jobob

It is the worst card in standard by far. It’s not even close. It’s the worst card that’s been in standard in a long time.

andrewvanmarle

Dear Jobob

Could you be a bit more specific? I mean, why should it be nerfed, Are there no answers to the card or is it broken in some way?) give a bit of reasoning why the card breaks the current meta?

A nerf call without any context can easily be construed as a troll-post.

by the way, the best answer to cards that give monstrous amounts of mana (like wizard class or seed gems) is roiling vortex.

I sub that card in when playing against ral or new nissa and laugh when they commit suicide

Ampersand

There is some crazy power creep in Standard right now, but each OP card/combo DOES have an answer.

If Wizard Class is giving you trouble, be sure to run support destruction. There are many options right now, but Demolish is perma-standard.

If you have it, run Test of Talents to stop any spells from being cast. Or, like Andrew suggested, run Roiling Vortex to punish Greg for all that ill-gained mana.

Nothing needs to be nerfed. Wizard Class isn't even close to the most problematic card in Standard, but since it's an Uncommon, many people have access to it, which is a good thing.

DrRuphus

Plus, Circa mid-year (streets of New capenna is scheduled for Q2) sets from zendikar to afr would sink into legacy (according to the card game schedule)

TomB

I'm actually liking Paladin Class in a couple of my decks...

Tremayne

Well, I fully understand @jobob frustration with Wizard class, because Greg is apparently completely unable to use the loop prevention system (LPS) to stop the loop. In the end, It is no fun to watch a 5-10 min turn that goes on and on while your life is being pecked down by small amounts of damage.

I totally agree that a few counters exists, but often the loop begins on Greg’s turn without me having a turn to counter, so I do not consider @Ampersand suggestion of support removal as constructive. Secondly, For me Test of talents is one of the most annoying cards in the game (to play against), so I don’t see it as a solution to counter an annoying card with an even more annoying card. But roiling vortex is a viable solution (if you have that card in your library) and you get the chance to field it.

The main problem with Wizard Class, as I have experienced it, is that players “play it safe” and add one to many mana converters in order to ensure the loop will run without end, instead of adding the damage spell, which should ensure a quick end once the loop fires, but instead it is just as described above.

My immediately feeling is that wizard class should be limited so that additional supports do not also give mana, like Paladin class which does not give x4/x8/x16/… damage with additional supports on table (I know that it gives +3/+3 multiple times, but that is not excessive). Alternatively, Wizard class can only trigger 5-10 times a turn.

Tremayne

After having looked some more at Wizard class, it seems that the problem is that the mana gain effect is not contained behind the level 5 clause that many other class supports follows.

Why is that?

Ampersand

Tremayne said:

I totally agree that a few counters exists, but often the loop begins on Greg’s turn without me having a turn to counter, so I do not consider @Ampersand suggestion of support removal as constructive. Secondly, For me Test of talents is one of the most annoying cards in the game (to play against), so I don’t see it as a solution to counter an annoying card with an even more annoying card. But roiling vortex is a viable solution (if you have that card in your library) and you get the chance to field it.

Understood, however my comments were meant to be illustrative of the fact that there are plenty of ways to deal with Wizard Class, not giving specific advice. Wizard Class is powerful, but doesn't need changing.

Tremayne

@Ampersand - I mostly agreeing with not nerfing Wizard class. But then at least fix Greg’s inability to stop loops.

Also, do you have any idea as to why they didn’t make Wizard class similar to all the other class supports, which requires approximately 5 turns to trigger, while Wizard can trigger immediately?

Shouldn’t Paladin give double strike immediately for example and increase the multiplier by 2 for every Paladin support on the board?

Ampersand

@Tremayne
COMPLETELY AGREE on the Loop Prevention System (LOL) issues on Greg's side.

Also agree it is a little odd that WC has it's level formatting differ from the other Class cards, but I don't think it needs to be changed. 

For example, it is nowhere near as much of an issue as Naru Meha was. That was a truly broken card that needed to be fixed. IIRC, issues with that card also led to the creation of the Loop Prevention System.....

andrewvanmarle

All in all, sometimes you get played for a loop, all you can de is concede defeat, just the nature of the game

Stormcrow

If they wanted to be truer to paper D&D, Wizard class should be absolutely terrible at level 1 and not even start to be decent until about level 9 or 10. Then absolutely just "infinite free mana, break the game, warp reality, do whatever you want" by level 20. Fighter class should be the one that's strong at level 1, and basically does not improve with leveling up at all.

BongoTheGrey

The only issue with Wizard Class is the same issue that all classes have in Magic Puzzle Quest and it is the fact that those supports cannot be reinforced and you can have infinite supports of the same class on the battlefield at the same time.
Wizard Class seems like an issue because you can break it easier creating combos that just require you to draw cards. If the class supports didn't have that cannot be reinforced clause then no one would think that Wizard Class is broken. It would still be a good card, but you wouldn't be able to create infinite combos with it.

andrewvanmarle

LOL, i went against a new nissa (PMissa?) deck so I decided to add roiling vortex. I DID forget to take out wizardclass AND day's undoing ...........instant death and major facepalm

jobob

andrewvanmarle said:

Dear Jobob

Could you be a bit more specific? I mean, why should it be nerfed, Are there no answers to the card or is it broken in some way?) give a bit of reasoning why the card breaks the current meta?

A nerf call without any context can easily be construed as a troll-post.

by the way, the best answer to cards that give monstrous amounts of mana (like wizard class or seed gems) is roiling vortex.

I sub that card in when playing against ral or new nissa and laugh when they commit suicide

You pretty much sum it up… sure, you can add ToT or Roiling Vortex, but the fact that WC is so broken that you almost have to include on of those any time you play a blue PW is evidence of how badly it needs a nerf. There’s no other card in standard that restricts you like that.

And the game shouldn’t be a race to see who can get WC or ToT out first,

Also, Roiling Vortex significantly limits which cards you can put into your own deck, which kills a lot of the fun.

Not to mention, if you don’t want to run a red or blue PW yourself, you are just screwed.

Furthermore, the decks are just so bland and uninspiring. Just chuck the same converter/draw spells and kick off the boring loop, I don’t mind losing to a creative deck, but this weaksauce just sucks.

And I could forgive it if it were primarily a problem at bronze or silver where you don’t have much of a card collection and don’t yet know how to build a deck. But I run into this one a lot on Platinum. ON PLATINUM. Tell me you lack any skill or creativity in deck building without telling me you lack any skill or creativity in deck building.


Is that enough context? It’s funny that this could be called a “troll post,” given that Wizard-Class is just a garbage troll card.

jobob

andrewvanmarle said:

All in all, sometimes you get played for a loop, all you can de is concede defeat, just the nature of the game

Yeah, sure, but that’s no excuse to leave in a broken card that does it too easily. D3 has nerfed cards like this for a lot less.

jobob

DrRuphus said:

Plus, Circa mid-year (streets of New capenna is scheduled for Q2) sets from zendikar to afr would sink into legacy (according to the card game schedule)

Yes, I know. I’ve considered quitting the game until AFR rotates out. That’s how badly I hate this trash card.

jobob

Ampersand said:

There is some crazy power creep in Standard right now, but each OP card/combo DOES have an answer.

If Wizard Class is giving you trouble, be sure to run support destruction. There are many options right now, but Demolish is perma-standard.

If you have it, run Test of Talents to stop any spells from being cast. Or, like Andrew suggested, run Roiling Vortex to punish Greg for all that ill-gained mana.

Nothing needs to be nerfed. Wizard Class isn't even close to the most problematic card in Standard, but since it's an Uncommon, many people have access to it, which is a good thing.

Again, just because a card has a counter, doesn’t mean it’s not nerf worthy, especially when you are talking about one or two specific cards limited to a couple of colors. Maybe I like to play with other PW to keep the game fresh.

Support removal is usually not enough, btw, because WC puts a different copy out each time, so it quickly overwhelms support removal.

I get that there are other combos that are bad. Curse of Vitality + Highborn Vampire is incredibly annoying, for example, and can’t be sopped once it’s kicked off. But it’s harder to set up, can actually be countered with support removal, and is FAR less prevalent, Out of all the truly cheese broken decks I see, 80-90% of them are abusing WC.

jobob

Tremayne said:

Well, I fully understand @jobob frustration with Wizard class, because Greg is apparently completely unable to use the loop prevention system (LPS) to stop the loop. In the end, It is no fun to watch a 5-10 min turn that goes on and on while your life is being pecked down by small amounts of damage.

I totally agree that a few counters exists, but often the loop begins on Greg’s turn without me having a turn to counter, so I do not consider @Ampersand suggestion of support removal as constructive. Secondly, For me Test of talents is one of the most annoying cards in the game (to play against), so I don’t see it as a solution to counter an annoying card with an even more annoying card. But roiling vortex is a viable solution (if you have that card in your library) and you get the chance to field it.

The main problem with Wizard Class, as I have experienced it, is that players “play it safe” and add one to many mana converters in order to ensure the loop will run without end, instead of adding the damage spell, which should ensure a quick end once the loop fires, but instead it is just as described above.

My immediately feeling is that wizard class should be limited so that additional supports do not also give mana, like Paladin class which does not give x4/x8/x16/… damage with additional supports on table (I know that it gives +3/+3 multiple times, but that is not excessive). Alternatively, Wizard class can only trigger 5-10 times a turn.

Good points and I agree completely on all of them.


ESPECIALLY helpful would be fixing the LPS system to kick in on Greg’s turn. That would address multiple bad combos, including some in legacy as well.

jtwood

I like when there are powerful cards that Greg can play, and I have to actually worry about losing

Even if it's for annoying reasons

:shrug:

DrRuphus

Friends, puzzlers, countrymen. Lend me your ears.
I come to bury wizard class, not to praise it.
BUT... I think that the problem is another. Greg has infinite patience so it is fine to be stuck in a pointless loop until boredom or other factors make literally ragequit us.
And yes, we thought those bad days behind with the shift of omniscience and hour of promise. But combos like that will happen again. So I think the only permanent solution is to restrain the number of loops allowed to Greg (I guess 3 or four bars would be a good compromise)