Does classic store need a boost?

entrailbucket

BlackBoltRocks said:

ThaRoadWarrior said:

What, if anything, would you be willing to exchange for it rewards wise, because it surely won’t be free.

Red iso.

This would go over poorly.  Some players still want red iso, but from what I've seen, zero players want a classic token.  I don't think people would take a classic token if they were free, let alone if they had to give up anything of potential use.

Akoni

Bad said:

I just think out another proverb: "Do you want it? Then you sweat it" Hey, this one serves for both real and virtual life.

XandorXerxes said:

 The goal is to allow them to step into the 5* tier at all. I was absolutely miserable hoarding as long as I did, but there was no other way for me to get into the 5* tier but to hoard.

I was absolutely miserable too. And him, and they. It is the only way to advance to 5* land. That is what represents playing with 5* champed. But it is at the reach of absolutely everyone. Only thing needed is commitment and resolution.
Helping casual players to obtain 5*s just devaluates the meaning of a 5* and the hard task to obtain them. 
And possibly it wont solve their casual play anyway.

Hoarding is not the only way to advance to 5* land. I mostly farmed my way there. I didn't actually start hoarding until last year after I read so much about it on the forum. Since then, I've only broken it twice. Once to get Ghostpool and just now for Wanda/Colossus/Knull. I would argue that the best way to get quality 5* characters is to hoard. Farming will get you there eventually, but it's going to take quite some time.

Casual players are going to get 5* characters at some point through luck or 4* rewards. When we refer to casual players getting 5* characters, I think many of us are referring to champed 5s. Even with the introduction of CL tokens, that just won't happen to any significant degree. Yes, there will be that one casual player who gets excited because they champed Rescue, but that will be few and far between. Casual players by default aren't dedicated enough to get the rewards necessary to increase their chances of getting lots of 5* covers. In the end, no matter what benefits a CL token would give casual players, they will never come close to being a threat to competitive players. It will, however, make them excited and keep them playing long enough for...

1. MPQ to possibly make some money off of them, and
2. Competitive players to get a few easy matches at the beginning of PvP from casual players giving it a go with their cutie wittle baby champed Kingpin.

TheRiddler

entrailbucket said:

One thing worth noting is that the casual players you accurately describe here make up the overwhelming majority of MPQ players.  I remember a statistic cited that 5% of MPQ players have at least one champion 5*.  (This was awhile ago, but it wasn't ancient history, it was within the last couple years)

Think about that -- if you have *a* champion 5* you're in the top 5% of the entire game!  I've had people who consistently finished in the top 5 of PvP and PvE events fight me on this and tell me they had maybe a 50th percentile roster, when they're placing in the top 1% of the most difficult events the game offers.

That's by design, though.  In order to keep us chasing whatever's next, they have to keep us looking up at the players ahead of us, not looking down at the much bigger crowd behind us. 

Progress has to be slow, because once you actually reach your goal, you find that nothing changes and you're now chasing some other goal.  Goals have to be very difficult to reach in a game like this to keep you engaged and chasing.

I'm sure its probably fairly accurate. But I always question metrics put out by companies and the context of those numbers.

I remember back when Facebook went public they claimed before to have 800+ million active users. Then once they went public and the numbers were available it was shown that they had 160 million users that logged in on a monthly basis. The numbers also shown that they had a ton of dead accounts.

Either way thinking about it I either need to light a fire into my alliance or find a new one. 16 of the 20 in mine have champed 5s and we aren't even a top 500 alliance in PVE or PVP.

Akoni

Heartbreaksoup said:

I used to take every 25cp reward that came with daily rewards and pull a Classic, saving 5cp for the next new character.  I've progressed so much in the game, however, that when I did this recently at day 1400-something, I got my useless 4* from the pack and asked why in the world I wasted the pull instead of saving all 25 for the next new character.  Lesson learned, I don't think I'll ever use that store again.

I don't think you wasted your resources pulling from CL. There comes a point in a player's roster when pulling from CL is no longer highly worth it. That's usually when they have most of their 4* characters champed and you can't afford too many more roster slots. You're not going to get a ton of 5* covers from CL. Devs have tweaked the numbers to ensure that doesn't happen. Unless you're like @entrailbucket or others who are using the multi-year strategy for maxing out your roster from CL, you will eventually need to switch over to LL and special stores when spending CP.

Akoni

entrailbucket said:

BlackBoltRocks said:

ThaRoadWarrior said:

What, if anything, would you be willing to exchange for it rewards wise, because it surely won’t be free.

Red iso.

This would go over poorly.  Some players still want red iso, but from what I've seen, zero players want a classic token.  I don't think people would take a classic token if they were free, let alone if they had to give up anything of potential use.

Did you forget about me already? I would gladly take CL tokens... just not in exchange for the Red ISO. I need my Red ISO.

I envision CL tokens provided in newer events or in events where they plan on tweaking the rewards system. They can also be offered in the Vault and as milestone rewards. I don't have access to their numbers or formulas and I'm not going to do the math myself to figure out the perfect solution. My point is there are options that don't include replacing needed resources.

Akoni

They gave with the right hand on milestones without taking anything with the left. Maybe they used slight of hand, but I don't remember losing anything when milestones were added. As far as events, I expect that they will continue to add new events while removing old events with poor participation or fan favor.

entrailbucket

Akoni said:

entrailbucket said:

BlackBoltRocks said:

ThaRoadWarrior said:

What, if anything, would you be willing to exchange for it rewards wise, because it surely won’t be free.

Red iso.

This would go over poorly.  Some players still want red iso, but from what I've seen, zero players want a classic token.  I don't think people would take a classic token if they were free, let alone if they had to give up anything of potential use.

Did you forget about me already? I would gladly take CL tokens... just not in exchange for the Red ISO. I need my Red ISO.

I envision CL tokens provided in newer events or in events where they plan on tweaking the rewards system. They can also be offered in the Vault and as milestone rewards. I don't have access to their numbers or formulas and I'm not going to do the math myself to figure out the perfect solution. My point is there are options that don't include replacing needed resources.

I mean, I'd certainly take them!  If I could trade in these worthless Latest tokens for Classics, I'd do that too!

But unfortunately, the two of us are so insignificant that in the grand scheme we're roughly equivalent to "nobody." (Especially me!)

Everyone just hates classics.  I really do feel like people would get angry if they gave out classics for free.

Bad

entrailbucket said:

Everyone just hates classics.  I really do feel like people would get angry if they gave out classics for free.

Well, it is another gamble factor. It could be even more exciting than LL, because the player always is expecting the 5* he wants.
But first of all, perhaps they should design a CL token. There is no one.

MrEd95

I haven’t read through the whole threat, so this may have already been suggested, but what if the classic store had the same boosted rotation as we now have for events.

Essentially, take for example this week’s boosted 5* list: daredevil, doc ock, gambit and spider man. Those 4 characters would have significantly boosted odds for pulling from classics for the week

it would work the same way as how we used to have increased odds for the latest 12 4* in the latest legends store.

would something like that be an option?

DAZ0273

ThaRoadWarrior said:

Where would you insert it in the current reward scheme? What, if anything, would you be willing to exchange for it rewards wise, because it surely won’t be free.

Are we talking PvE or PvP? PvE it is tricky. PvP though, that needs a reward shake-up BADLY.

One place to put it could be in Season Rewards progression.We also really should not have to be battling to 800 points for a 3* cover, it is ludicrous for 5* players and unnecessarily harsh for 3* players who need that cover more than just a farm churning. So there is room to restructure PvP rewards.

Sekilicious

MrEd95 said:

I haven’t read through the whole threat, so this may have already been suggested, but what if the classic store had the same boosted rotation as we now have for events.

Essentially, take for example this week’s boosted 5* list: daredevil, doc ock, gambit and spider man. Those 4 characters would have significantly boosted odds for pulling from classics for the week

it would work the same way as how we used to have increased odds for the latest 12 4* in the latest legends store.

would something like that be an option?

I like this idea. I think you could argue that at 20cp this would be a great option for players to target specific 5* characters. So everyone would hoard to get the meta 6 to 550 and then hoard for the new meta in LL. So while I would love that the developers might decide this store is worth 30cp and new 4* players would lose the option to use the CL to grow their 4* roster. 

Theghouse

entrailbucket said:

Theghouse said:

The biggest con with this idea is that there is very rarely any kind of added rewards, mostly only traded rewards.  

I would not want to trade CP which I can spend anywhere in special stores or Latests, or Latest tokens i can save up for a good group of characters, or guaranteed 5* shards, for a classic token where the dilution is absolute garbage and have a very very very low chance of getting a worthwhile 5*.

I'm just over-the-moon ecstatic for the outspoken player(s?) who could pull classics for 5+ years - from the very beginning of the 4* and 5* tiers - and champ every character ever released in the game. To think that newer players can accomplish the same given the overwhelming dilution in 4* and 5* over the last 3 years of this constant release cycle is just a completely ridiculous idea and terrible advice for those who want to build a competitive roster.  It's like a lottery winner encouraging people to take money out of retirement funds and buy more lottery tickets because " look at me! I did it! There's your proof that it works! Just do exactly what I did! "

I didn't win the lottery, in fact I did exactly the opposite of that.  I made extremely slow, steady progress over a period of many years.

If you're a weightlifter just starting today, and you can only lift 100lbs, but your goal is to lift 500lbs, there's only one way to get there.  You lift a little bit more each time you work out. 

You might never reach your goal of 500lbs, but if you make a small amount of progress every week, over a very, very long period of time, it adds up.  

One thing is for sure: you'll definitely never get there if you don't work out at all and never make any progress.


If your goal isn't "get all the 5* to 550" or you think that goal is stupid or worthless, that's fine!  It's my goal, not yours, and I couldn't care less what you think about it.  My strategy supports my goal.  If you have a different goal, use a different strategy.

Yeah ok sure let's go with your weight lifter analogy instead of the lottery winner.

You could only lift 100 lbs and you want to get to lifting 500 lbs.  You joined the gym over 5 years ago and the barbells weighed exactly 100 lbs.  Over time, the gym added weight to the barbells gradually.  Now the barbells weigh 500 lbs but you can lift them because your strength grew proportionately with the increasing weight of the barbells.

Now a newbie joins the gym and can only lift 100lbs just like when you started. And you tell them "hey just use these barbells everyday and you'll get to lift 500 lbs just like me!".  Except the barbells already weigh 500 lbs.  

And you go on expecting them to be able to make the same progress you did, just because you did it starting 5 years ago under wildly different circumstances.

DAZ0273

5 years ago was when I started playing this game. I started just around the launch of Green Goblin, meaning the 5* in game were Silver Surfer, OML, Phoenix, SMBIB and Goblin. I don't remember if the 3 latest thing applied but the only reason I even have every 5 save Ronan on my roster is due to length of time playing and opportunities to roster from launch/special stores.

New players face 50+ Classic character dilution AND all the 4's (over 100!) just to get a single character, let alone a specific character cover. And it isn't getting any better.

ThaRoadWarrior

They also have the advantage now of Shards and Saved Covers, and progression 5*s assuming you can grind SCL10. I've got no way to test it, but I posit that even though it's far from trivial to chase 5s now, it's decidedly less hard than it used to be. Is that "enough" less hard? I don't know that I could really say considering how long I've been playing and the shape of my roster, but I can tell you that there does seem to be a tipping point of critical mass on roster shape where you start to get more agency. 

DAZ0273

Saved Covers only really applies if you already have the 5 rostered. If you are chasing Classics and you score a saved cover then that must be pretty disappointing (my Iron Man knows the feeling!). Saved covers has a much bigger impact on the 4* tier I feel. Shards are a bigger deal because every pull, even if it does not get you what you want still contributes towards that or another goal.

DAZ0273

Going back to 5 years ago -  Green Goblin was released on 25th February 2016 and we did not get another 5* release until 5th May with the dual Cap/Iron Man Civil War! A Two month + gap! It must have been hoarding heaven.

ThaRoadWarrior

DAZ0273 said:

Saved Covers only really applies if you already have the 5 rostered. 

Sure - Saved Covers came online right as i needed my first for Daredevil, a situation that came about from a lopsided Classic build of 5/0/1 followed by a level 280 for 4* Kingpin dropping a 6th yellow for me. So now there is a latent LT champ level just waiting for me to take the time to grind out the remaining 3 covers I need for him someday (probably reasonably soon) rather than 5000 iso that would have been long gone or a 1/0/0 dupe on roster. They aren't necessarily there to help you roster someone, but they do save you quite a bit of headache when it comes to pulling from a full dilution pool (or even a limited pool like Latest). 

KGB

DAZ0273 said:

New players face 50+ Classic character dilution AND all the 4's (over 100!) just to get a single character, let alone a specific character cover. And it isn't getting any better.

It's a bit easier in the 4* tier because new characters are featured for a few months time (roughly same length of time a 5* stays in latest) and you can completely cover that character during that time when you are early in the 4* stage.

Doesn't help for older 4* of course but since you only need the meta it's relatively easy to shard your way to a fully covered Polaris (one of the 3* players who posts here regularly already has her at 9 covers only a couple months after getting into the 3* tier) and Grocket and a couple others you might want.

KGB

Daredevil217

entrailbucket said:

I think they want it to take a long time, because it hides the fundamental shortcomings of a game like this.

Here's the thing, the big secret that nobody realizes until they get to the top (I'm not there, but I've been there, a long time ago): whatever you're chasing, there's nothing there. 

The chase IS the game.  That's all there is.  It doesn't magically get easier or more fulfilling when you hit whatever the next big milestone is for you.  Whether that's championing a single 4* or a single 5*, or maxing out the entire 5* tier, the only thing that awaits you when you get there is more grind. Someone is always ahead of you, and other people are always chasing you.

There's no secret game mode that opens up when your roster gets good enough.  There's no trophy room to display your #1 finishes.  The entire game is just more of the same grind, over and over. 

So if you speed up or bypass a particular stage, you're just skipping over some grind to get to more of the same grind.  The only way to enjoy the game is to learn to enjoy the grind.

Absolutely agree! This is why I stayed in the 4* tier so long. I actually enjoyed the tier/game and was never in a rush to move on because I understood what awaited me on the other side of that door. More of the same with less options. Now that I have all 5s except Knull/Ronan champed, I once again have more options than I would actually use (similar to the 4* tier). I do have “trophies”. I have a collection of Bag-Men I never sold. I have screenshots of things like finishing DDQ and Puzzle Gauntlet #1 and filling the entire board with fortified tiles. But those are trophies only because I ascribe them value. One thing you say a lot that I agree with is to set and understand your own goals. We’re all on the same treadmill. Those running just because the floor is moving are tired, burnt out and cranky, unwilling to step off. Those who are setting their own goals and making the machine work for them (I’m going to try to do 4 miles today!) are so much happier. 

entrailbucket said:

It doesn't do the "dream team" thing, it's always a combination of characters you've actually used.  It's not about character level, just star level, *generally*.  If you win a fight with a 5* team then win a fight with a 4* team, the player you beat will see your 4* team, everyone else will see your 5* team.

I'm generalizing rather broadly because I don't want to write 5000 words about this here.  There's like a million weird edge cases in how it handles different tiers and combinations and it's all been solved.

I don’t think I’m the only one who would love to read those 5000 words if you ever had the time. I’d find even the edge cases super interesting. 

TheRiddler

I'm not a big PVP player anyways so I've been playing around a bit to see if I can find out the cut off to where characters are too far below to show up as your defensive team. Finding it interesting so far.