A plea to the devs

Bad

The real problem was to create 2 characters doing things for free. Ihulk does a massive damage without needing to collect anything. Okoye does a massive boost with just 1 AP(TU).
Adding hard counters needing a significant AP collect for to counter those 2 would be in a severe disavantadge, meaning they would be inefficient. And at the same time it will not change that those 2 are simply the best and most broken duo plus the fastest team, hence any hard counter will not have any impact in the meta unless they were designed really strong to fast winning and take the place of hulkoye.
From my pov the fix could be really easy: make hulk and okoye in need to collect first something before starting their autopilot. Like all the others characters do, and for that reason they use to be balanced.

jredd

SnowcaTT said:

Borstock said:

I see Hulkpocalypse and Beta Ray Hulk, too. Okoye, on the other hand, disappears without Hulk because she is too slow otherwise. Hulk absolutely is the problem, not Okoye.

Okoye disappears without Hulk?

So all these people who have Okoye 30+, often 50+ levels higher than the next character....they simply go down to small 5* instead of their 5xx monster that buffs basically any character?

Do realize Thor -only- went away when Hulk came into play: because you can't play half-life thor vs an every-turn aoe!  Hulk goes away and it's not "Okoye disappears", it's "all the fat okoyes start using PX or Thor or [next thing]" instead.

Okoye goes away and hulk is used with....Apoc, and maybe Thanos. That's about it, and you won't see them often, and you can play around those 'issues' much easier.

Okoye is the problem, not Hulk. History has shown it.

okoye wasn't a problem until ihulk came around. okoye is a puff on defence. when was an okoye team hard to beat? historically? i'll wait...

Theghouse

I don't understand the thought process in these threads at all.  I can't imagine many people systematically skip Okoye teams that aren't paired with iHulk.  Same goes for skips on iHulk teams that aren't paired with Okoye.  The most logical conclusion is not that we need to change Okoye or change iHulk, as they are widely unproblematic with other partners.  Obviously, all that is needed to reduce their stranglehold on the meta is a change to their interaction together. 

An elegant solution I saw suggested by someone in one of the myriad of other threads about this was to make Hulk's team damage read like "destroys 2 green tiles, dealing xxx damage to the enemy team for each destroyed tile".  This preserves his existing power set, but the mechanic is now tied to matching/tile destruction and is outside the unwritten rules of the boostable power scope.

You want to hear an even crazier idea? Tie it to his match damage.  Something along the lines of "destroys 2 green tiles, with each tile dealing 10x Hulk's match damage to the enemy team".  Okoye or Apoc's boost still won't work..... But Sighclops will.  And he can flood the board with red for iHulk's nuke. Then all of the sudden PVP is filled with iClops.  And according to all the latest forum posts, everybody will completely happy because Okoye will be gone and the new 5* will be meta and that's all anybody wants right?

BlackBoltRocks

Theghouse said:

An elegant solution I saw suggested by someone in one of the myriad of other threads about this was to make Hulk's team damage read like "destroys 2 green tiles, dealing xxx damage to the enemy team for each destroyed tile".  This preserves his existing power set, but the mechanic is now tied to matching/tile destruction and is outside the unwritten rules of the boostable power scope.

Thank you. I like the adjective "elegant"

Bad

That is not more than a huge nerf to ihulk, leaving 4000 AoE in the way. Id rather prefer him collecting some AP and still having a good power.

Tony_Foot

We want a hulk worthy of being hulk! Here you go, ihulk. Nerf him nerf him!

polaris is just as broken for the game as okoye, funny no one wants that nerfed despite how limiting having that character will be in character design going forwards.

Nerf hulk and we just go back to slow brb and kitty, then with Polaris in sim. That teams just as cancerous. 

HoundofShadow

Those pro-Okoye and/or pro IHulk nerf players need to work harder. 

The last few characters (Gambit, Bishop, CapWorth) who got nerfed had discussions spanning 20+ pages.  

I would like to see the dev work on web tiles meta next in the 5* tier. For example, create 2 or 3 web tiles based on the colour of your match. Currently, most of the web tiles created via making matches are random. Not only does it block IHulk, it could also create a 5* with 4* meta team like R4G and Polaris are doing now. 

Daredevil217

I love that. It would fulfill both my desire to see the web meta be implemented in the 5* tier in a real way, as well as my desire to see stronger IHulk counters. 

I will say, I do find the current meta to be one of the faster ones with regards to climbing to 1200 and out (my goal). My issues are that in order to do so my options are pretty limited (ie it’s boring). It’s also pretty healthpack intensive, but that’s less of an issue than the fact that the viable team options that can realistically beat Hulkoye are so limited. Again, say what you will about the Thorkoye meta, but at least it was balanced in that almost any 5* combo could beat them. 

I have said here that Hulk is the “problem” character between himself and Okoye. But I’m coming around to the idea that it really is just the interaction between the two that’s broken. Okoye has been around long enough and proven time and again that she’s easily disposed of when not paired with Hulk. I really like Hulk/DD, Hulk/Thanos, etc. I have hopes that Hulk/Adam could be fun too. In a vacuum he’s a fun character with a high risk/reward factor. This is why I’d rather hard counters (or even a really effective soft-counter like the one hound is suggesting) than an outright nerf.

Since my main issue is wanting more usable offensive teams once you pass 700-800; my hope is that counters would pave the way for that. 

Captain_Carlman

I'm nowhere near playing in the meta, but I've been playing since practically the beginning and I've seen enough to know nerfs just end up slaughtering a character rather than "balancing" them.  Given that the devs will let broken characters go for months or YEARS without a fix and what should be constant rebalancing seems to be out of the question, hard counters are likely the way to go.  

The only problem seems to be most of the "broken" abilities stem from passives.  When an attempt to counter the problem ability is made as an active power, you didn't really "fix" anything.  This is especially true on passive powers that hit the ground running on turn 1.  To counter a strong passive, you need another strong passive.  An active power counter isn't going to do anyone any good when that character is wasted by the passive on turn 3 or 4.  

Maybe what we need is an "Anti-5trange" (Dormammu?) that passively deals damage/stuns/reduces damage when passives on the opposite side go off?  I have no idea how you can mechanically make this work in the game engine (can you imagine how much of a mess this character's PVP event would be?), but it would give characters with only active powers (Havok, for instance) a chance to shine and be their "counter".

Polares

When I saw this thread I thought "oh look, a thread looking for buffs for Cyclops and Magneto", what a disappointment...

Counters, we need good counters!

Imagine this:

Cyclops red power:

active: 7AP 15k damage
passive: when Cyclops makes a red match, if one does not exist, a 1 turn repeater is placed in a random color tile  that destroys one green tile every turn (it does damage and it collects AP).

Green and yellow could remain the same.

What about this? Hulk countered!

SnowcaTT

jredd said:

SnowcaTT said:

Borstock said:

I see Hulkpocalypse and Beta Ray Hulk, too. Okoye, on the other hand, disappears without Hulk because she is too slow otherwise. Hulk absolutely is the problem, not Okoye.

Okoye disappears without Hulk?

So all these people who have Okoye 30+, often 50+ levels higher than the next character....they simply go down to small 5* instead of their 5xx monster that buffs basically any character?

Do realize Thor -only- went away when Hulk came into play: because you can't play half-life thor vs an every-turn aoe!  Hulk goes away and it's not "Okoye disappears", it's "all the fat okoyes start using PX or Thor or [next thing]" instead.

Okoye goes away and hulk is used with....Apoc, and maybe Thanos. That's about it, and you won't see them often, and you can play around those 'issues' much easier.

Okoye is the problem, not Hulk. History has shown it.

okoye wasn't a problem until ihulk came around. okoye is a puff on defence. when was an okoye team hard to beat? historically? i'll wait...

Really, really big Okoye/Thor (which several chased) was not 'easy' with tiny versions. The difference you are forgetting is all the time that's passed since Thorkoye faded, and all the Okoye vaults in the meantime. Everyone and their brother's dog seems to have 500+ Okoye now.

Okoye/PX is a huge pain. And let's look at the reasons why. PX decreases damage done to himself, so it's better to take out Okoye first. But hitting Okoye doesn't give TU drain. And Okoye can heal herself, making her stick around even longer.

People are complaining because...oh right, the same reason.

So the problem isn't 'hulk is hard and hits too hard!' - because if that was the problem, we'd see hulk paired with other people. That doesn't happen.

The problem is 'Okoye sticks around too long because of true heal, hits too hard because TU doesn't drain, and the TU scales too much with high levels....which everyone has now with all the Okoye vaults'

So - what follows is you should fix the Real Problem rather than the 'current hotness'. Because if you don't fix those problems - you'll see all those 500+ Okoyes abusing other characters instead of ihulk - and all future characters that work with her boosts. Future-proof Okoye by fixing her now, or we'll have these same debates down the road.

Okoye is a helper-boost character. She does very little on her own. In that way, she is like Hood or Polaris...which you TARGET FIRST. In shooters: target the medic first. In RPG's: get that buff character off the board. The reason Okoye isn't being targeted first is because she is both boosting and becoming harder to kill than the 'real' threat - these are things that can be changed.

Make Wakanda Forever unconditional, not "if Okoye is not in front" : "At the start of each turn, destroy 1 friendly Team-Up AP". One problem solved - the super-high TU AP 'problem' diminishes, The problem of being 'forced' to hit Okoye first in certain match-ups (keeping her in front) goes away.

Make Wakanda Forever limit TU boost to six, or start at "every TU after 4" so it's not immediate and not massive. This eliminates the super-high TU ap problem....which is exacerbated when Okoye is at high levels (maybe make it not scale at all after 450).

Make Indomitable Spirit not true heal and restore a specific amount of health rather than based on TU. The problem of Okoye healing too much goes away, the problem of her sticking around forever (because of all the huge versions) goes away, the 'problem' of players playing indefinitely and never needing health packs goes away.

SnowcaTT

Captain_Carlman said:

I'm nowhere near playing in the meta, but I've been playing since practically the beginning and I've seen enough to know nerfs just end up slaughtering a character rather than "balancing" them.  Given that the devs will let broken characters go for months or YEARS without a fix and what should be constant rebalancing seems to be out of the question, hard counters are likely the way to go.  

The only problem seems to be most of the "broken" abilities stem from passives.  When an attempt to counter the problem ability is made as an active power, you didn't really "fix" anything.  This is especially true on passive powers that hit the ground running on turn 1.  To counter a strong passive, you need another strong passive.  An active power counter isn't going to do anyone any good when that character is wasted by the passive on turn 3 or 4.  

Maybe what we need is an "Anti-5trange" (Dormammu?) that passively deals damage/stuns/reduces damage when passives on the opposite side go off?  I have no idea how you can mechanically make this work in the game engine (can you imagine how much of a mess this character's PVP event would be?), but it would give characters with only active powers (Havok, for instance) a chance to shine and be their "counter".

Passive that eliminates all other passives, it's the character I've wanted since...well, forever.

Solves so many problems. Nothing is better than 'free', and 5* judgement now is almost "how good is their passive....they don't have one? Pass."

No BRB tiles/Kitty boost/Okoye boost/Hulk aoe/PX-JJ-Onslaught cascades/Carnage-Polaris tile flood....

A person can dream.

Daredevil217

SnowcaTT said:

jredd said:

SnowcaTT said:

Borstock said:

I see Hulkpocalypse and Beta Ray Hulk, too. Okoye, on the other hand, disappears without Hulk because she is too slow otherwise. Hulk absolutely is the problem, not Okoye.

Okoye disappears without Hulk?

So all these people who have Okoye 30+, often 50+ levels higher than the next character....they simply go down to small 5* instead of their 5xx monster that buffs basically any character?

Do realize Thor -only- went away when Hulk came into play: because you can't play half-life thor vs an every-turn aoe!  Hulk goes away and it's not "Okoye disappears", it's "all the fat okoyes start using PX or Thor or [next thing]" instead.

Okoye goes away and hulk is used with....Apoc, and maybe Thanos. That's about it, and you won't see them often, and you can play around those 'issues' much easier.

Okoye is the problem, not Hulk. History has shown it.

okoye wasn't a problem until ihulk came around. okoye is a puff on defence. when was an okoye team hard to beat? historically? i'll wait...

Really, really big Okoye/Thor (which several chased) was not 'easy' with tiny versions. The difference you are forgetting is all the time that's passed since Thorkoye faded, and all the Okoye vaults in the meantime. Everyone and their brother's dog seems to have 500+ Okoye now.

Okoye/PX is a huge pain. And let's look at the reasons why. PX decreases damage done to himself, so it's better to take out Okoye first. But hitting Okoye doesn't give TU drain. And Okoye can heal herself, making her stick around even longer.

People are complaining because...oh right, the same reason.

So the problem isn't 'hulk is hard and hits too hard!' - because if that was the problem, we'd see hulk paired with other people. That doesn't happen.

The problem is 'Okoye sticks around too long because of true heal, hits too hard because TU doesn't drain, and the TU scales too much with high levels....which everyone has now with all the Okoye vaults'

So - what follows is you should fix the Real Problem rather than the 'current hotness'. Because if you don't fix those problems - you'll see all those 500+ Okoyes abusing other characters instead of ihulk - and all future characters that work with her boosts. Future-proof Okoye by fixing her now, or we'll have these same debates down the road.

Okoye is a helper-boost character. She does very little on her own. In that way, she is like Hood or Polaris...which you TARGET FIRST. In shooters: target the medic first. In RPG's: get that buff character off the board. The reason Okoye isn't being targeted first is because she is both boosting and becoming harder to kill than the 'real' threat - these are things that can be changed.

Make Wakanda Forever unconditional, not "if Okoye is not in front" : "At the start of each turn, destroy 1 friendly Team-Up AP". One problem solved - the super-high TU AP 'problem' diminishes, The problem of being 'forced' to hit Okoye first in certain match-ups (keeping her in front) goes away.

Make Wakanda Forever limit TU boost to six, or start at "every TU after 4" so it's not immediate and not massive. This eliminates the super-high TU ap problem....which is exacerbated when Okoye is at high levels (maybe make it not scale at all after 450).

Make Indomitable Spirit not true heal and restore a specific amount of health rather than based on TU. The problem of Okoye healing too much goes away, the problem of her sticking around forever (because of all the huge versions) goes away, the 'problem' of players playing indefinitely and never needing health packs goes away.

Based on our convo in the other thread, I acknowledge we play a different game due to MMR. But, high level Thorkoye were never an issue for me. I could punch up with mine at ones 50 levels higher no problem. Since my Thor starts below half health, and theirs starts at full, it was a super soft meta. I’m curious where the difficulty was for you?

And Professor was out long before Hulk was, yet while I did see them paired occasionally, Prof/Okoye were never meta nor complained about as a problem from anyone on these boards that I can remember. Now I could be wrong; and/or our MMR experiences may once again be different, but I don’t remember them being this widespread force in the game. Hard to imagine the meta “going back” to a place it never was. 

HoundofShadow

Someone did point out to me that your MMR changes again once you have 5? 5* at level 470 or 480 and above. I can't remember who. I wonder if MMR changes again for those 500-510 and lastly 550 players. The context was I see more Gritty or Polaris/BRB in shield sim more than I see iHulkoye even at 1800 and above.


Instead of giving a character a passive that disables all passives, make it a format in PvP instead. I suppose there would be lots of bugs happening though.

Bad

Im seeing PX and okoye too. Its not the optimal pair on ofense because okoye will lose TU but its a dangerous one.
People saying its a problem of MMR dont lost sight of this issue. 
Problems happening on high MMR on time will reproduce on lower ones,being more true if they continue with all the okoye stores. Or in any case your own natural progression will drive you there.

Michael1957

I’ll accept both iHulk and Okoye being nerfed , BUT ONLY in a collective nerf that includes Polaris, Kitty, and Beta Ray.  Completely level the field 

HoundofShadow

You forgot Thor and Apocalypse. 

DyingLegend

Better the devil you know then the devil you don't

Nerf one team, another will fill the void, it's an endless cycle.

Phumade

Lik e I have said align MMR to what players want and reasonably expect for their current placement and points.

No one wants to fight big or little Okie on the climb for 900.

It’s okay to have two different MMR below and above 1200.
   Nothing wrong with having access to easier ques 75% of the time and only 25% see bigger teams.  But little 3* players should have access to 2* etc.  it’s okay for 1* bots to be farmed by 2* rosters.

over 1300 mmr works fine in that your really are seeing the players who are actually fighting for placement spots.

On a tactical scoring basis it’s okay for big to hit little.  Your still growing the points int the game and providing the users a more pleasing play experience.  In fact it’s a secret whale tactic to reset against a low point teamates to keep the 75 retal “in-house”

the current issue is that mmr wants you to punch up through the most tedious part of the climb. (Through 1000). Before you can adopt your traditional play style baker/sniper/ grill eater etc.

instead let’s flip this preference so players can immediately see smaller teams so they are confident in using wider more diverse responses.  Some will focus on a fast climbing combo and Immediately get to 1200 and see the return of 5* friend wall.  Others will play a diverse 4*/5* combo to 1200 and then also switch to their meta A teams.

this is all fine.  Ultimately placement ranks are decided far beyond 1200 point levels.  So make it easy for people to reach their personal /alliance score contributions before it becomes a personal slugfest for placement.

jredd

i probably lose more matches to px than any other character, cause i won't skip px like i do other characters. that said, a px/okoye team is not more dangerous than a px/onslaught team. okoye doesn't seem to prop up px as much as she does other characters. and she's certainly not one of x's better partners. still not buying what you're selling holmz...