A plea to the devs

Aweberman
Aweberman Posts: 436 Mover and Shaker
edited February 2021 in MPQ General Discussion
I am sure that the developers put a lot of effort into creating new characters for this game.  It seems likely that they would feel rewarded for that effort if players used those various characters.

In the 5* tier, this isn't really happening in PvP.

Two dominant teams are Okoye with Hulk (Immortal) and Kitty Pryde with Beta Ray Bill.  Much has been said about this; the point needn't be belabored here.

It seems to me that a couple of small tweaks could make these teams less dominant (though still strong), thereby opening up the field for other viable teams, of which there are plenty (were these two excluded).  So here are my suggestions:

- Change Hulk's power The Green Door to deal team damage if there are at least 10 green tiles on the board (rather than 8).  This may not seem like a large change, but I believe it would dramatically reduce the consistency of the team-damage trigger.  (In fact, even changing it to 9 would be sufficient.)

- Change Beta Ray Bill's power Clash of the Worthy to cost 8 blue AP (rather than 6).  Again, this is not a huge change, but it would slow the character down enough to make playing against him more manageable.

Naturally I don't expect either of these changes will be implemented, as the developers have not shown an inclination toward making small modifications (for reasons I don't understand).  But I wanted to point out how even a small change could have beneficial effects without dramatically gutting a character's usefulness (as was done with Old Man Logan and Gambit).

Edit 1: I really just had a few minutes available when I dashed off this post.  I have elaborated on the ... ah, historical imperatives? .. of making an adjustment here: https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/948044/#Comment_948044

Edit 2: My apologies to anyone who was already burned out on the "Okoye everywhere" thread (https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/84554); I didn't realize from the title that it was about this same topic (sort of).  I just thought, "I don't care if I see Okoye. It's the other guy I don't like so much," and didn't read any of it.
«13

Comments

  • SnowcaTT
    SnowcaTT Posts: 3,486 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2021
    Aweberman said:


    Two dominant teams are Okoye with Hulk (Immortal) ....


    - Change Hulk's power
    I still don't understand why everyone is clamoring for hulk change.

    Hulk is not the problem. In events where Okoye is locked out, you basically don't see Hulk.

    OKOYE IS THE PROBLEM. Okoye is the boost. Without Okoye immediate boost, without Okoye mega-boost, Hulk is going to be slightly annoying with a bit of damage...but really, iHulk would be a tier 2-3 character without this immediate boost.

    So let's fix the problem.


    Wakanda Forever:
    Damage from friendly powers is increased by [%] for each Team-up AP you have beyond four. (plus remaining text)

    OR: Damage from friendly powers is increased by [smaller %, maybe much smaller - or not increasing so much with Okoye level]

    OR: Damage from friendly powers is increased by [%] for each Team-up AP up to six.
    ...changing the heal to remove true heal wouldn't hurt alongside these, but it wouldn't be enough.



    Or maybe, MAYBE all the people wanting hulk change want the problem character to be left alone so they still have the OP character to compete in PVE. Just a thought.


  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Hard counters > nerfs

    You will see more:

    1) Prof $/Onslaught
    2) Apocalypse/Prof $
    3) Apocalypse/Onslaught
    4) Kitty/Polaris
    5) Polaris/BRB

    in pick 2 PvPs after the nerfs.

    iHulkoye needs 1 or 2 more hard counters. BRB already has existing counters like Havoc, Apocalypse, Kitty etc.

    There are lots of ideas being suggested for hard counters to IHulk. And increasing the number of green basic tiles from 8 to 10 is a lot, unless you are saying 10 green tiles.






  • SnowcaTT
    SnowcaTT Posts: 3,486 Chairperson of the Boards
    HoundofShadow said:
    Hard counters > nerfs

    You will see more:

    1) Prof $/Onslaught
    2) Apocalypse/Prof $
    3) Apocalypse/Onslaught
    4) Kitty/Polaris
    5) Polaris/BRB

    in pick 2 PvPs after the nerfs.

    iHulkoye needs 1 or 2 more hard counters. BRB already has existing counters like Havoc, Apocalypse, Kitty etc.

    There are lots of ideas being suggested for hard counters to IHulk. And increasing the number of green basic tiles from 8 to 10 is a lot, unless you are saying 10 green tiles.







    This is very true as well. Meta/best will always exist, it's probably impossible to make a 'not best'; even having rock-paper-scissors (and you have at least two, with Hulkoye and BRB/Carnage which isn't mentioned as much) is tough.

    Evergreen: no Okoye! Was all BRB/Polaris
    One of the other winter events: no Okoye, no BRB! All Carnage +

    Get rid of hulk today: you'll have BRB/Kitty BRB/Polaris BRB/Carnage

    Do both the nerfs you suggest: All the big okoye will just add Thor again, and the teams HoundofShadow mentions here will be all over. And I agree with the thought: hard counters, which allow that rock-paper-scissors.

    Quake in 5*? Total Hulk shutdown.
    Anti-TU in 5*? Okoye shutdown.
    Anti-shield in 5*? Total BRB shutdown
    Anti-(many tiles) in 5*? Carnage shutdown

    Just look at BSSM. Not 'good', but started seeing lots of play when kitty was starting to dominate. Just buff BSSM to 'strike/defense/attack' and he'd be fantastic, today.

  • Aweberman
    Aweberman Posts: 436 Mover and Shaker
    A 5* Quake would also be great. 
  • acescracked
    acescracked Posts: 1,197 Chairperson of the Boards
    Aweberman said:
    I am sure that the developers put a lot of effort into creating new characters for this game.  It seems likely that they would feel rewarded for that effort if players used those various characters.

    In the 5* tier, this isn't really happening in PvP.

    ....

    Can you list when, since 5*s were introduced there were various 5* characters used in PvP? And which characters were they? Thanks.
  • sinnerjfl
    sinnerjfl Posts: 1,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    HoundofShadow said:
    Hard counters > nerfs

    You will see more:

    1) Prof $/Onslaught
    2) Apocalypse/Prof $
    3) Apocalypse/Onslaught
    4) Kitty/Polaris
    5) Polaris/BRB
    Bring it on, I would much rather fight any of those teams you listed than iHulk/Okoye.
    Much more interesting.
  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,733 Chairperson of the Boards
    I see Hulkpocalypse and Beta Ray Hulk, too. Okoye, on the other hand, disappears without Hulk because she is too slow otherwise. Hulk absolutely is the problem, not Okoye.
  • Davidk777
    Davidk777 Posts: 76 Match Maker
    Just make a character that can't take team damage on offense and defense.  Therefore this character would be the best ihulk counter and his best partner. Since ihulk can't hurt his team either. It would also make the game more fun too.
  • Michael1957
    Michael1957 Posts: 630 Critical Contributor
    Or in life instead of complaining about something or someone to change to benefit me , from a job to a woman , I just move on to the next better one . Problem gone 
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,966 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2021
    Geez @Aweberman decided to shut this thread down, pulling out ALL the receipts. Nicely done and I fully agree with IHulk being the problem and not Okoye. Your post does point out sadly how they miss the mark with their goals to make these characters still useable after being nerfed. This is why I say leave them as is and focus on hard counters. 

    I wasn’t a 5* player when Gambit got axed. The only character I was pro nerf about was Bishop. There was too much about him that needed countering. I still think the meta can be saved with a nice hard counter. I also agree with hound that the 5* tier has plenty of Bill/Kitty counters (Thor/Havok/Apoc all ignore protect tiles for one, DD/Daken can steal them, deny blue, etc.)
  • tonypq
    tonypq Posts: 557 Critical Contributor
    I don't really agree with Ihulk being the main problem here. Or even Okoye being the main problem. It's just an unfortunate situation where both have abilities that work together so well which leads the combo being a bit over the top. Ihulk is fine as is IMO in any other team, Okoye I'd say is also fine in any other non Ihulk team.

    I don't want Ihulk get nerfed just to see some other characters come out down the road with some sort of passive damage or cheap active damaging abilities that will get exploited and be back to where we are now, then of course having Ihulk nerfed rather senselessly. The reason Okoye/Ihulk is over the top is the instant ramp up in damage with just a couple quick team up matches, boosting per single TU AP, and no restraints on WF. As is this combo is like driving a 18 wheeler through a set of bowling pins just effortlessly plowing through anything and everything with no effort or planning. This just gets worse as so many players are pouring all resources into power leveling her to 550. 

    Nerfing Ihulk isn't going to prevent future releases from possibly forming another over the top pairing with Okoye, then all you end up with is an Ihulk who could get butchered so much people might not want to play him. That would be absurd for D3 to be such fools to have two 5* Hulks being trash, I don't see them nerfing Ihulk personally. 

    They could easily tweak Okoye to not butcher her but prevent her from being over the top with characters with passive damage or super cheap abilities.  You have options for a tweak to Wakanda Forever like but not limited to the ones below, 

    - the damage boost happens only in increments of team up AP like 3/6/9/12 and so on
    - the damage only happens once she has X amount of TU AP say 6 then once below 6 it won't activate until collecting more TU AP
    - they could reduce how much damage WF boosts active damage abilities or make it not boost them at all

    Obviously some of the above tweaks would be more impactful that others. I'm not advocating for anyone to be nerfed or tweaked, just saying if they decided they have to I'd prefer to see things done in a way that they don't completely take the teeth out of either character. If they were to make a tweak to Okoye that would feel acceptable to me, I'd say making her have a certain amount of TU AP before WS starts buffing damage. The at least you would need to make some sort of effort before she can starting buffing others

    As far as Ihulk I like him, can't say I'm in love with the massive team damage he deals. I wouldn't hate if they tweaked him or passive damage abilities in general so they cannot be buffed by damage boost powers like Okoye and Apoc have. If in turn they drastically reduced the team damage upon reviving. Let him actually revive a few times and deal Hulk worthy match damage without downing your whole team. As is he'd still have a great red active that could be boosted by Okoyoe/Apoc, se he wouldn't be left out of the dark if paired with them. He'd still have his conditional passive damage to bring something unique to other teams. 

    I think I'd have more fun playing Ihulk as a character who you'd want to play to boost his match damage and go nuts rather than just exploit his passive damage. Seems like Ihulk being feared due to going crazy with match damage would be more fitting to his character that passive damage. 

    Any counter characters they release, if they don't tweak Okoye or Ihulk would be another option. Leave both characters alone and just release a well designed counter character to deal with flavor of the month exploitations. Of course then many players will cover these counter characters and be able to roll them out when needed. It will obviously take quite some time before a good majority of the player base could obtain and cover these counter characters, especially if they are introduced as 5*s. At some point things could balance out a bit where a lot of players have the counter characters rostered. 



  • ammenell
    ammenell Posts: 817 Critical Contributor
    tonypq said:
    You have options for a tweak to Wakanda Forever like but not limited to the ones below

    nope, it's all or nothing in mpq. 

    she either won't be touched, ever OR she gets rebalanced - meaning she will be nerfed to the point she is totally useless, but you get the option to sell her for 20 elite and 1000 iso. 
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    Really neither ihulk or okayed are significant issues.  The big problem is the MatchMaking algorithm.

    simply stated why not  just make matches with lower tier teams up to 1200?
    why is it a given that I can only que teams bigger than me at the starting climb?

    I don’t see why any players need to suffer with nerfs when Mmr can be easily adjusted to incentivize the behavior desired.

    0-900.   You should be given a 75/25 mix of teams 1 tier easier and similarly leveled teams

    900-1200 flip the mix to all similar teams with a few easier teams available to break 1200

    after 1300 use the normal mmr to matchmake based on scores.

    the goal should be to get all classes of players to 1200 before letting people seperate based on roster size and exp
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,966 Chairperson of the Boards
    Anything you consider a “tweak” that makes these characters less powerful, fast, etc. is still a nerf even if you call it something different. 

    I don’t believe nerfing IHulk would just usher in a new passive damage plus Okoye meta. Professor, Deadpool, 2099, Polaris, Warlock, Chavez, Strange all do passive damage boosted by Okoye. All of them get used with her too. None of them are meta combos. Why? You can play around them. Hulk really can’t be played around because he can’t die (plus his threshold to proc is a joke). That’s an often overlooked part of his kit, but the fact that you have to chew through tons of health before finally dealing with “the problem” is what makes him so dangerous. All these other passive damage characters you can kill first and Okoye on her own is a joke. With Hulk, you don’t have that luxury. Nerf Hulk, and I promise you won’t have to deal with another Okoye problem, unless another broken character is created. Because some of the characters listed existed and were paired with Okoye before IHulk and none of them were issues. 
  • Aweberman
    Aweberman Posts: 436 Mover and Shaker
    edited February 2021
    tonypq said:
    I wouldn't hate if they tweaked him or passive damage abilities in general so they cannot be buffed by damage boost powers like Okoye and Apoc have. 
    This would be another very simple, non-destructive tweak.

    I haven't expressly stated it already in this thread, so I will also mention that I agree a counter is probably better than a nerf (a la a 5* Quake, for example). 
  • Aweberman
    Aweberman Posts: 436 Mover and Shaker
    I added the following to my first post:

    My apologies to anyone who was already burned out on the "Okoye everywhere" thread (https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/84554); I didn't realize from the title that it was about this same topic (sort of).  I just thought, "I don't care if I see Okoye. It's the other guy I don't like so much," and didn't read any of it.
  • Tiger_Wong
    Tiger_Wong Posts: 1,057 Chairperson of the Boards
    Waaah
    waaah
    waaaah

    you whine about one team and another will pop up. And another. And another. And the whining will continue. 

  • SnowcaTT
    SnowcaTT Posts: 3,486 Chairperson of the Boards
    Borstock said:
    I see Hulkpocalypse and Beta Ray Hulk, too. Okoye, on the other hand, disappears without Hulk because she is too slow otherwise. Hulk absolutely is the problem, not Okoye.

    Okoye disappears without Hulk?

    So all these people who have Okoye 30+, often 50+ levels higher than the next character....they simply go down to small 5* instead of their 5xx monster that buffs basically any character?

    Do realize Thor -only- went away when Hulk came into play: because you can't play half-life thor vs an every-turn aoe!  Hulk goes away and it's not "Okoye disappears", it's "all the fat okoyes start using PX or Thor or [next thing]" instead.

    Okoye goes away and hulk is used with....Apoc, and maybe Thanos. That's about it, and you won't see them often, and you can play around those 'issues' much easier.

    Okoye is the problem, not Hulk. History has shown it.

Categories