Making gambit and banner useful

ThaRoadWarrior

Removing the team mate restriction on Gambit might break Profe$$or X now that I think about it. If you had a meaningful purple battery at the 5* tier you could really go to town.

HoundofShadow

That's a possibility, but Gambit's purple power cost more than Prof $'s, so it's a coin flip. It can be exciting actually. 

Turn X
AIs gets 8 purple APS
You: please do not fire purple, Prof...

Next turn
Gambit's Repeater is at 1 count
You: please do not fire purple, Prof.

Following turn
AIs gets 11 purple aps and Gambit fires his purple power.
You: Yessss.

The only time you wish Prof X fires his purple is when he chooses yellow or black.

PiMacleod

Slightly insulted, @HoundofShadow

You think every player on here just wants more damage, less AP cost, better passives, etc, etc...??

Yikes.  I figured you'd be able to differentiate between some players on here by now.

I for one want balance.  Theres enough power in the game already.  And if it stays, fine... Then others need to be brought up in a like-manner... Control options, defense, specifically worded traits (remove instead destroy, as an example, but also combo abilities -- remove SAPs, THEN destroy those tiles... Hasnt been seen yet), more % mitigators/enhancers, and other options.

When it comes to what the company will or wont do, i wont put words in their mouth.  I can only hope that they read the forums and make their own informed decisions.  The answer to a question never asked is always "no"...

As far as their resources go... I assume ANYTHING they do requires time and effort.  But they've surprised me (us?) Lately...  The milestones update... Daily quests... Shards update...  You get my point.  They seem to be able to throw together good updates, despite their "small size".  So (not to repeat), i wont assume what they can or can't do -- instead, i can only post suggestions

Besides... I always assumed (my mistake i guess?) That you'd enjoy the balancing process too...

DAZ0273

Howzabout if they bring Gambit back they have his black power passively convert all green tiles to red and purple ones at the beginning of each turn? From turn 1.

HoundofShadow

I was a bit confused, so I went back to see what I wrote. Of course, I'm not referring to all players, and I'm not referring to you. I'm aware there are players who look beyond those factors and there are good suggestions being brought up on shifting the meta around or coming up with anti-meta teams. But, at the end of the day, damage/APS and ap costs is still what players look at. They can design a good anti-iHulkoye character, but if the numbers are not what the players expect, it will still end up as a fail. 

Balance-wise, I prefer hard counters and synergistic teams, rather than nerfs and purely match damage and damage/ap buffs. 

PiMacleod

I've heard a greater call for synergies lately.  Theres been a few mentions in my YouTube channel here n there, the FB group i'm in, and my alliance... As much as players understand that Okoye/Apoc can boost their teammates, there's a desire for such power for team synergies. 

After all, if we're gonna boost damage to such astronomical heights, it kinda does make comic-book-sense to have it based on a team.

Thinking about it right now, i kinda wish it was a part of a larger general set of rules, that isnt applied to characters, but instead applies to everyone based on their affiliations.
Just as an example:

If your team has 2 or more characters sharing the same affiliation, gain +25% match and power damage for those characters, per character (i.e. 50% due to 2 characters or 75% if all 3).

If the team has all 3 characters sharing the same affiliation, gain 25% damage reduction to all sources.

Stuff like that.  Of course, they could also make them more specific to teams...  Like, have these general ones, but then also include specifics...  I.e. --

2 or more Xmen = +15% health regen per character
2 or more Avengers = +15% damage output per character
2 or more SHIELD = Start with +1 all AP
2 or more Villians = Each Countdown/Repeater created gains Fortification upon creation.

I could go on... But you get the point.  I only mention this because if we're talking about nerfs and buffs... Maybe synergies is just the thing.  If done properly, it could address the entire cast of characters, and lead to a different way to look at each character, given their teammates and affiliations.

jp1

Why would anyone want expensive, low damage, slow, weak characters in the 5* tier? I’m not insulted at all for wanting the tier that takes years of dedication and/or hundreds (possibly) thousands of dollars to cover to be anything other than outstanding.

I’m tired of watching the 4* tier pile up with great characters who I will mostly never use. 

The idea is to keep moving the carrot so we want to chase it. Not leave it a quarter mile down track so we want to stop racing altogether.

ThaRoadWarrior

HoundofShadow said:

 They can design a good anti-iHulkoye character, but if the numbers are not what the players expect, it will still end up as a fail. 

It's probably worth saying that a "good" anti-hulkoye character has to be faster than turn-1 passive to be a qualitatively "good" anti-hulkoye, or else it's a "bad" one. Right now the "best" (only?) anti-Hulkoye is BRB/Kitty, and it is decidedly the opposite of fast, which is why people aren't super enamored with it.

Part of the problem high level players have with some of these "dud" characters is that you can see they are obviously intended to stop or combat the meta, but you can just as obviously see they were never going to be able to do it from day 1 because there is a fundamental misconception (it appears) on the part of whoever designed it about what it needed to do in order to be effective. For instance if Sighclops is really intended to be an anti-hulk, then giving him a power that costs 9 red ap (3 standard matches to fire) that then drops 3 3-turn repeaters that do nothing for 3 more turns are utterly clueless about how people are playing iHulk and what the implications of leaving that character alone for at BEST 6 turns will be, and that's not a great feeling.

PiMacleod

jp1 said:

Why would anyone want expensive, low damage, slow, weak characters in the 5* tier? I’m not insulted at all for wanting the tier that takes years of dedication and/or hundreds (possibly) thousands of dollars to cover to be anything other than outstanding.

I’m tired of watching the 4* tier pile up with great characters who I will mostly never use. 

The idea is to keep moving the carrot so we want to chase it. Not leave it a quarter mile down track so we want to stop racing altogether.

Lololol...

You state this like the issue is black or white, left or right... As if middle ground doesnt exist.

We have power.  Asking others to be just as effective isnt all that hard, even though some individuals will tell us otherwise.

No one wants more expensive stuff, or weaker stuff.  But how about make what the character is doing more useful??  

Example: the new mags.  We all agree he's a dud.
But if his repeaters counted down while in mid-air...
But if they came out fortified...
But if his defense augment worked while he was mid-air...
But maybe if he had a passive that worked off of his leadership, like "whenever you make a yellow match, reduce the countdown on 2 friendly repeaters by 1"...

Just examples.  This doesnt make him a damage machine, but would further improve his capabilities to be an anti-iHulk (keeping defense up for starters), or an anti-Polaris (removing tiles via repeaters).

There are more ways to win than just straight damage.  We have straight damage.  We even have defense (BRBitty says hi).  Now how about some more control options for more rock/paper/scissors effect... Anyone whos ever played CCGs knows what i mean.

jp1

PiMacleod said:

jp1 said:

Why would anyone want expensive, low damage, slow, weak characters in the 5* tier? I’m not insulted at all for wanting the tier that takes years of dedication and/or hundreds (possibly) thousands of dollars to cover to be anything other than outstanding.

I’m tired of watching the 4* tier pile up with great characters who I will mostly never use. 

The idea is to keep moving the carrot so we want to chase it. Not leave it a quarter mile down track so we want to stop racing altogether.

Lololol...

You state this like the issue is black or white, left or right... As if middle ground doesnt exist.

We have power.  Asking others to be just as effective isnt all that hard, even though some individuals will tell us otherwise.

No one wants more expensive stuff, or weaker stuff.  But how about make what the character is doing more useful??  

Example: the new mags.  We all agree he's a dud.
But if his repeaters counted down while in mid-air...
But if they came out fortified...
But if his defense augment worked while he was mid-air...
But maybe if he had a passive that worked off of his leadership, like "whenever you make a yellow match, reduce the countdown on 2 friendly repeaters by 1"...

Just examples.  This doesnt make him a damage machine, but would further improve his capabilities to be an anti-iHulk (keeping defense up for starters), or an anti-Polaris (removing tiles via repeaters).

There are more ways to win than just straight damage.  We have straight damage.  We even have defense (BRBitty says hi).  Now how about some more control options for more rock/paper/scissors effect... Anyone whos ever played CCGs knows what i mean.

I appreciate that you are theory crafting some examples that would be nice to see. The fact is though, we get something useful or we get milk toast. There is no way Mags or Sighclops weren’t vetted as trash before release. Why not fix them? There is motivation to have a well defined meta and it is financial. You must have trash tier to accentuate these that you want people to chase.

The lazy part is how often they just rely on the old meta to cash in. Rather than shake things up and keep progressing. 4* releases show they clearly know what they are doing, and choices are being made at players expense in the 5* tier.

Any 5 released should at least be better than the best 4. By virtue of value alone, never-mind balance.

I’m all for creative mechanics to make it happen, but countdowns clearly aren’t the way. At least in the way they are willing to implement them.

HoundofShadow

I was thinking along the line of one passive that counters them at the start of the turn but two active powers with unsatisfactory damage or ap cost.

KGB

jp1 said:

The lazy part is how often they just rely on the old meta to cash in. Rather than shake things up and keep progressing. 4* releases show they clearly know what they are doing, and choices are being made at players expense in the 5* tier.

Any 5 released should at least be better than the best 4. By virtue of value alone, never-mind balance.

Technically the worst champed 5* (Wasp @450) would handily defeat the best champed 4* (Polaris @270) in a 1v1 battle. You could sub in Juggs or some other 4* and she'd still beat them by virtue of health / match damage.

If you are instead saying the worst 5* should mesh on teams better than the best 4* does, well then good luck. Polaris is more OP in the 4* tier than any 5* character is in the 5* tier.

Yes, the Devs's know what they are doing and releasing. But a mistake in the 4* tier like Polaris isn't a death sentence (ie there are no nerf-Polaris threads) because there exist a higher tier of play that mostly renders her an afterthought.  But a OP mistake in the 5* tier like Gambit forces a nerf which makes the community divided and angry (witness the Okoye discussions lately). So they are being very cautious now in 5* land because of the cost of an OP mistake.

KGB

DAZ0273

Actually there most definitely has been a Nerf Polaris thread but the point stands about 5* OP  mistakes.

ThaRoadWarrior

I feel confident C4rol could stomp out Wa5p without much trouble, as could Vulture.

KGB

ThaRoadWarrior said:

I feel confident C4rol could stomp out Wa5p without much trouble, as could Vulture.

Wasp averages match 1K damage per turn (avg 1800 from her primary colors and 200 from secondary = 2000/2). In 14 turns Carol (13994) will be dead from match damage.

Carols Black deals 11674 (plus any strikes) and Wasp has 50K health so Carol needs to get Black off roughly 4x to kill Wasp. You think Carol gets Black off 4x in 14 or so turns?

Vulture can go airborne so may be able to do it if you get a lot of Black to stay airborne but you'll need a lot of luck to manage it and it won't be easy to repeat and will take a long time to kill her.

KGB

MoosePrime

KGB said:

ThaRoadWarrior said:

I feel confident C4rol could stomp out Wa5p without much trouble, as could Vulture.

Wasp averages match 1K damage per turn (avg 1800 from her primary colors and 200 from secondary = 2000/2). In 14 turns Carol (13994) will be dead from match damage.

Carols Black deals 11674 (plus any strikes) and Wasp has 50K health so Carol needs to get Black off roughly 4x to kill Wasp. You think Carol gets Black off 4x in 14 or so turns?

Vulture can go airborne so may be able to do it if you get a lot of Black to stay airborne but you'll need a lot of luck to manage it and it won't be easy to repeat and will take a long time to kill her.

KGB

Also, Vulture is weak one on one, because while he's airborne the opponent can still collect AP, and when he finally lands, they will be ready to hit him with any targeted abilities they have.

ThaRoadWarrior

My C4rol is lvl 333, and is doing 18k plus whatever her strikes are adding, they don’t share a top color so C4rol’s passive wont damage, but will help AP generation. I don’t know, I think I could do it. It would be harder with a baby champ though.

g4mora could probably do it too if stuns are enabled

Mr_F

KGB said:

ThaRoadWarrior said:

I feel confident C4rol could stomp out Wa5p without much trouble, as could Vulture.

Wasp averages match 1K damage per turn (avg 1800 from her primary colors and 200 from secondary = 2000/2). In 14 turns Carol (13994) will be dead from match damage.

Carols Black deals 11674 (plus any strikes) and Wasp has 50K health so Carol needs to get Black off roughly 4x to kill Wasp. You think Carol gets Black off 4x in 14 or so turns?

Vulture can go airborne so may be able to do it if you get a lot of Black to stay airborne but you'll need a lot of luck to manage it and it won't be easy to repeat and will take a long time to kill her.

KGB

Achievemnt unlocked: trigger Wasp Expert.

My Wasp is not champion yet but still I can tell who will win...

Wasp 5* vs. Captain MArvel 4*

Even despite the fact that two of Wasp's abilities in this fight are useledd - ya can't match blue for Sting Operation cause of Marvel's green passive and yellow Shrink Tactics is nothing more than a CtS as she cant use it on herself. It forces her to chase black for Pain Index and to deny Marve'ls damage. And to heal.

Not to mention Match damage.

Winner: Wasp.

Wasp 5* vs. Vulture

Two colorous are same so you can just chase same colorours as Vulture would do and kill him with Pain Index and deny some AP with Sting Operation.

Not to mention match damage.

Winner: Wasp.

Fun fact: Better chances to win against Wasp has Talos (due to stun and stealing blue ap from her to feed his stun) or Mysterio (Due to Invisibility).

ThaRoadWarrior

A player controlled Wa5p will obviously win. A player controlled Vulture only needs to chase black, he generates whatever else he needs. I’d take my chances. I’m also pretty confident I could do it with even a baby champ Karnak. Also Throg, Ghost, Miles Morales...

jp1

We are talking solo as well. I agree it could be done, probably with Rogue as well. 

With teammates it’s a whole different story.