Making gambit and banner useful

formula11

How about taking 5*Thor's passive and adding it to gambit,banner (At the beginning of each turn if gambit,banner is below 50% health destroy 5 basic _____, _____, _____ tiles). It would make them useful than. We could get some new combos out there instead of the current meta

formula11

Also the 50% health part means they would be just as  easy to control as thor is. Save for last to take down if your playing against then so it won't trigger. And handicap yourself bringing them in at half health.

ThaRoadWarrior

I feel kind of sure that if they just un-nerfed Gambit and OML, they'd be just fine in today's meta compared to how the game was in their heyday.

formula11

I think your right but I couldn't see them ever doing that. And 5* land could use some more ap feeders that are squishy so they are not a threat to anyone. Maybe we could use more characters instead of the same couple. 

Borstock

ThaRoadWarrior said:

I feel kind of sure that if they just un-nerfed Gambit and OML, they'd be just fine in today's meta compared to how the game was in their heyday.

This ^

And I say this as someone who would in no way benefit from those moves. I sold my Gambit.

formula11

I also sold Gambit so no benefit for me either.

ThaRoadWarrior

I was a late 3* player then, and I’m only just now working on Gambit after champing OML last month. At this point I’m only chasing the meta of yesteryear out of nostalgia lol.

formula11

How about testing the waters a little and remove the "Gambit's allies may not fire purple or red powers" and see what happens. I'd bet he would get a little more useable. 

HoundofShadow

When devs design characters, they choose three characteristics that they think most represent the characters and then translate it into the game mechanics. So, it's more than just about removing this and that. Designing a character is an art, which a lot of people in here don't care about.

ThaRoadWarrior

HoundofShadow said:

When devs design characters, they choose three characteristics that they think most represent the characters and then translate it into the game mechanics. So, it's more than just about removing this and that. Designing a character is an art, which a lot of people in here don't care about.

Some characters are more inspired in this game than others. There are more than a few “5pm on a friday and I have plans...” sets of powers that have been implemented to my eye lol. (Looking at Magneto, Danver5, Talos...etc)

I would say that the original implementations of Gambit and OML are the lovingly crafted versions, and the nerfed versions are the hollow broken shells of those designs. 

PiMacleod

ThaRoadWarrior said:

HoundofShadow said:

When devs design characters, they choose three characteristics that they think most represent the characters and then translate it into the game mechanics. So, it's more than just about removing this and that. Designing a character is an art, which a lot of people in here don't care about.

Some characters are more inspired in this game than others. There are more than a few “5pm on a friday and I have plans...” sets of powers that have been implemented to my eye lol. (Looking at Magneto, Danver5, Talos...etc)

I would say that the original implementations of Gambit and OML are the lovingly crafted versions, and the nerfed versions are the hollow broken shells of those designs. 

This.

It's an art, for sure.  But not all art is beautiful, and even a world-class author needs an editor.

Plus, this isn't just like a movie, or music, where the outcome is some sort of middle-ground is usually between "making money" and "artistic vision"... this is a game.  Games are actually played and manipulated by the players.  Gaming is an ... interactive art, and unlike the medium of comic book characters that this represents, games demand a sort-of balance to be achieved, unless the end goal is to actually create content that sees a much-lower amount of play.  

On the topic of games as an art, designer are generally PROUD of what they made.  Of course, some are just making a paycheck, but then that takes away some of the glamour of this whole thing being "art" doesn't it?    Anyway, if a designer really puts some sort of "heart and soul" into it, I would think that nobody aims for their creation to be a dud.  Look at Talos -- read his abilities.  They're actually worded very well, and are pretty intricate.  There's a bit of dedication to the theme.  I can appreciate the effort put in to make him feel unique.  HOWEVER, it just doesn't work in the game they've created, because the same game they've created has expectations placed upon the player.  The "Event Rewards" tab for each and every event (PvE and PvP) is enough of a carrot-on-a-stick to get people wanting those rewards.  If you want those rewards, you know how many nodes you gotta clear, or opponents you need to beat.  If the character doesn't work as fast as another, then it's not-as-preferred, because for those rewards, we need faster clears.  After all, there's only SO much time in the day!

Keeping the design of the characters true to a vision is fine.  But then tweak the numbers, add/remove limiters, and make it still playable within the game in it's current state.  This may take some testing, patches, nerfs, or buffs.  Otherwise, the artist's vision is pretty much moot, and said art will never be fully enjoyed.

I think the only time this is fine is when it's a joke character, but that's the art in itself.  Bag-Man is the walking joke, and that's great.  Just like Dan from Street Fighter, and that's fine.

Can you imagine being the designer, being proud of your creation, and then it comes out and just falls flat?  You thought that Cap M5rvel was an AWESOME design... and then it hits, and you read the reactions, and your heart just sinks.  That stuff can be prevented with simple number tweaks and limiter addition/removal, while still preserving the intent of the character.  This is where the author's editor comes into play... someone to help the end product reach its full potential.

Polares

ThaRoadWarrior said:

I feel kind of sure that if they just un-nerfed Gambit and OML, they'd be just fine in today's meta compared to how the game was in their heyday.

About OML? for sure, as he never deserved the nerf in the first place. Gambit? I dont know. His passive was sooooooooooo strong, that he might even today, still be broken. Also his red and his purple would work extremely well with Okoye or Apoc. Even his purple was extremely good, overwriting everything.

Okoye and Gambit specially would be VERY good together, in both PvP and PvE (specially in PvE, with Gambits ability to overwrite anything with his purple, multiple attacks in both red and purple).

I guess in PvP, Hulkoye would still be the fastest team, but chars like BRB or Kitty would be nothing for Gambit (as I dont think "replace" would trigger BRB's passive).


PS: One of the reason's Kitty was not a thing when she was launched was actually Gambit, as he countered her hard.

SnowcaTT

Nerf everything until wasp is good, and then nerf wasp.

Lots of useless 5*, not just these two. Even when they are the 5e....you are 'hampered' by these 'worthless' characters, that you don't ever plan on using their abilities because they'll slow down your PVE runs.

And in PVP: you'll never ever use them, or see them.

It's probably way to time-intensive to go back and boost 80%+ of each tier, trying to balance them again. Better to come up with some reason (bonus ISO for each character used today) or event (heroics) to make them quasi-relevant to have on your roster.

PiMacleod

Polares said:

ThaRoadWarrior said:

I feel kind of sure that if they just un-nerfed Gambit and OML, they'd be just fine in today's meta compared to how the game was in their heyday.

About OML? for sure, as he never deserved the nerf in the first place. Gambit? I dont know. His passive was sooooooooooo strong, that he might even today, still be broken. Also his red and his purple would work extremely well with Okoye or Apoc. Even his purple was extremely good, overwriting everything.

Okoye and Gambit specially would be VERY good together, in both PvP and PvE (specially in PvE, with Gambits ability to overwrite anything with his purple, multiple attacks in both red and purple).

I guess in PvP, Hulkoye would still be the fastest team, but chars like BRB or Kitty would be nothing for Gambit (as I dont think "replace" would trigger BRB's passive).


PS: One of the reason's Kitty was not a thing when she was launched was actually Gambit, as he countered her hard.

I think I would still welcome this.  Here's why...

It takes a couple turns to get that purple... or maybe 1 lucky turn with that passive on.  Either way, you aren't firing that purple off EVERY TURN.

BRB & Kitty basically guarantee for 6 blue (which is easy thanks to BRB's passive) that the protects will be there.  And if Gambit gets the purple to overwrite specials pretty quick?  It takes only 6 to get it rolling again... or what about any yellow they've built up?  She only needs 8 yellow to throw out a few more protects.  Her red could help to spam attack tiles too, to help keep Gambit purple busy.

All I'm trying to say is that it might not be better, but I don't think it'd be bad either.  I see this as an actual option to go against BRBitty teams, in a Rock/Paper/Scissors sort of way.

The true scary part is if they allowed teammates to use the red/purple... because now Apoc's just punching TOO often... yikes.  Probably wouldn't scare me so much if he didn't punch "through" protects.... but doing that, plus all that damage, for only 7 red, which Gambit will spoon-feed him?  Yikes again.

I think that's a bit much.  I'd be all for Gambit to be as he was though... a new contender in the meta, and could help Storm/Throg in a charge tile meta.

ThaRoadWarrior

Was it original gambit who also reduced enemy AP or was that Gambit 2.0?

MoosePrime

ThaRoadWarrior said:

Was it original gambit who also reduced enemy AP or was that Gambit 2.0?

That was 2.0.  Original Gambit generated more AP, but did less damage with red and purple.

Phumade

PiMacleod said:

Can you imagine being the designer, being proud of your creation, and then it comes out and just falls flat?  You thought that Cap M5rvel was an AWESOME design... and then it hits, and you read the reactions, and your heart just sinks.  That stuff can be prevented with simple number tweaks and limiter addition/removal, while still preserving the intent of the character.  This is where the author's editor comes into play... someone to help the end product reach its full potential.

I can imagine patch was disappointed when he saw the first reactions to the carnage revamp.  Yeah, I’m sure that student intern had the best intentions when he proposed Civil  war cap.  But still there got to some quality controls checks.  Someone besides us should be playtesting

PiMacleod

Phumade said:

PiMacleod said:

Can you imagine being the designer, being proud of your creation, and then it comes out and just falls flat?  You thought that Cap M5rvel was an AWESOME design... and then it hits, and you read the reactions, and your heart just sinks.  That stuff can be prevented with simple number tweaks and limiter addition/removal, while still preserving the intent of the character.  This is where the author's editor comes into play... someone to help the end product reach its full potential.

I can imagine patch was disappointed when he saw the first reactions to the carnage revamp.  Yeah, I’m sure that student intern had the best intentions when he proposed Civil  war cap.  But still there got to some quality controls checks.  Someone besides us should be playtesting

lol... I'm laughing because you said "student intern"

...because, if it's an intern making character decision, then I'm REALLY upset with my career direction in life.  Submitting an idea?  Sure... intern-capable.  Final DESIGN?!  No... I would hope that it's more than just an intern helping to develop what is considered "end game" characters for us.

Highly agreed about the "quality controls" bit. 

Just... let a select group do a beta-week for the new character.  Said player would have an extra tab along with "Prologue", "Versus", etc... that tab would be just for the beta week stuff, and that tab would include content that would not interact with other tabs.  You click into the tab, and there's the nodes to play in a PvP against other beta-week players.  Click on the node, and the same fight preview shows.  Go into character select, and it's NOT YOUR ROSTER.  It's the "master roster", including a version of the new character, champed so that you can mess with the level distribution.  Of course, everyone's at max level, so it's all a flat surface to test with (no 550 Okoye's against your 450 Okoye).  And to entice people to test it out thoroughly?  Include a set of "progression rewards"... just a bit of this and that to say "thanks" for taking your time out the day, away from the normal PvE and PvP schedule, to playtest the upcoming character.

This way, they get actual players who play the game already (veterans, I'd assume), and if the rewards are right, the testers will probably shoot for a good amount of the prizes, if not all.

The only thing that I'm not so sure on is would they be okay with streamers/YouTubers?  Because that would happen.  I'd assume a good ol' fashioned disclaimer screen saying that it's not necessarily the content that will be released is a good measure, but that all assumes that that's enough to protect them and their interests.  In the end, YouTubers/streamers might actually help them drive a bit of hype for the new upcoming character by allowing beta-week testers to exist.

I'm just spit-ballin' here.  I could be off.  Wouldn't be the first time... but I see potential.

jp1

There are just so many possibilities to exploit a character and so many combos available that it must be mind boggling to first come up with something remotely relevant to the character at hand, and second...not have them be deemed “broken” which will mean extra work in the future. 

Not that it’s an excuse to release a terrible 5*. They have made them so hard to realistically collect that I expect (as should everyone else) that they live up to the hype. Why they won’t buff as a quality of life feature is beyond me.

Akoni

PiMacleod said:

Phumade said:

PiMacleod said:

Can you imagine being the designer, being proud of your creation, and then it comes out and just falls flat?  You thought that Cap M5rvel was an AWESOME design... and then it hits, and you read the reactions, and your heart just sinks.  That stuff can be prevented with simple number tweaks and limiter addition/removal, while still preserving the intent of the character.  This is where the author's editor comes into play... someone to help the end product reach its full potential.

I can imagine patch was disappointed when he saw the first reactions to the carnage revamp.  Yeah, I’m sure that student intern had the best intentions when he proposed Civil  war cap.  But still there got to some quality controls checks.  Someone besides us should be playtesting

lol... I'm laughing because you said "student intern"

...because, if it's an intern making character decision, then I'm REALLY upset with my career direction in life.  Submitting an idea?  Sure... intern-capable.  Final DESIGN?!  No... I would hope that it's more than just an intern helping to develop what is considered "end game" characters for us.

Highly agreed about the "quality controls" bit. 

Just... let a select group do a beta-week for the new character.  Said player would have an extra tab along with "Prologue", "Versus", etc... that tab would be just for the beta week stuff, and that tab would include content that would not interact with other tabs.  You click into the tab, and there's the nodes to play in a PvP against other beta-week players.  Click on the node, and the same fight preview shows.  Go into character select, and it's NOT YOUR ROSTER.  It's the "master roster", including a version of the new character, champed so that you can mess with the level distribution.  Of course, everyone's at max level, so it's all a flat surface to test with (no 550 Okoye's against your 450 Okoye).  And to entice people to test it out thoroughly?  Include a set of "progression rewards"... just a bit of this and that to say "thanks" for taking your time out the day, away from the normal PvE and PvP schedule, to playtest the upcoming character.

This way, they get actual players who play the game already (veterans, I'd assume), and if the rewards are right, the testers will probably shoot for a good amount of the prizes, if not all.

The only thing that I'm not so sure on is would they be okay with streamers/YouTubers?  Because that would happen.  I'd assume a good ol' fashioned disclaimer screen saying that it's not necessarily the content that will be released is a good measure, but that all assumes that that's enough to protect them and their interests.  In the end, YouTubers/streamers might actually help them drive a bit of hype for the new upcoming character by allowing beta-week testers to exist.

I'm just spit-ballin' here.  I could be off.  Wouldn't be the first time... but I see potential.

In-game testers is an interesting idea. I don't know how much time is needed to make changes, if needed, but more than a week before the release date might be necessary. 

Streamers and YouTubers definitely would not be permitted to provide previews though. I don't know what the Marvel license contains, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were conditions for the release of game-related content. Besides, the purpose of having in-game testers is to receive feedback from a contained group of trusted individuals. Allowing pre-released characters to be streamed defeats that purpose.

HoundofShadow

They do not follow "choose three characteristics" strictly and they also create characters to counter meta, which was stated in their website.  

MCOC has selected group of players testing the game but the company is huge (over 100 staffs and over 100 mil turnover). Ours is a small company, so it's probable that the logistics and legal implications of getting players to test the game outweigh the benefits. Besides, it's going to be pretty predictable how players are going to design the characters, such as high damage/ap, low cost, strong passive etc. I think the game will become a faster game of power creep if players here test the game.