5-star Carol Nerf?

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  • MegaBee
    MegaBee Posts: 1,040 Chairperson of the Boards
    Holy wow. That's a lot of damage!
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,828 Chairperson of the Boards
    Reading through this, it is absolutely insane how many people were upset about this here, and how upset they were.  A lot of other players didn't even notice that it happened, or maybe knew but didn't care.  In certain circles this didn't even come up.  I had no idea it happened at all.

    I think the problem is that the "right" players weren't affected by it.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Ronan came out about 6 months after her nerf. Previously, one or two year back, one poster revealed the next 4 releases in one of the threads here. I'm not sure if anyone remember this. Could we infer that the maximum number of characters they more or less complete is 4? 6 months in advance implies 12 characters, unless Ronan got moved back.

    If you make a match-3 with three repeaters, he will deal only one repeater damage for that particular match-3 plus any other repeaters. You would have taken significant damage by the time 30 repeaters are out on the board. Time taken would probably be like 1.5 to 2 minutes just for setup? 

    Also, I think the developer would be aware that players, at least in the forum and in Line, hate 2 or more turns repeaters because it's too slow. Most characters with power relying on long turn cd/repeaters are more or less DoA.

    I can't imagine nerfing C5rol for a non-meta or C-tier 5*.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,454 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2022
    The whole thing is hard to imagine when we now have Shang-Chi, a character capable of initiating a winfinite combo by himself, just one year later.

    The repeater length thing with Ronan is why I took Vulture with me to help the blue earn. By the time you can fire off that power again you've had them propogate as well. This specific combo is why I was so bummed that Brand doesn't have a Goblin King level repeater modifier and can only do one at a time.

    There does seem to be some funny in-game math with powers like this one (P4nther's protect match is hard to predict as well), and it gets weirder when they are fortified via To4ch or someone like that, but try it out and see, it definitely slaps like crazy when you break them with a power like this.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    I'm waiting for shield sim to be up. I think it depends on how they code such powers. Are they counted as individual instance or one instance. From what you described it seems like Ronan+Human Torch deals (30*1800)^30?
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,454 Chairperson of the Boards
    It's hard to be entirely sure, because Torch's red does base AOE + 1364 for each tile destroyed as well, so it's about 30k off the top from everyone, and then you get all these additional hits that wipe out the remaining hp without showing you the total really. I wish they hadn't changed the Puzzle Guantlet damage calc to just not show any numbers when it has no effect so you could see the damage total. That is a perfect testbed for maximum power damage except you can't see numbers anymore. KAecilius works like that too, it just doesn't display anything anymore. You may struggle to have it work in simulator against 3 tile movers. I'm still trying to figure out the best way actively spam Ronan's repeaters which takes a whole lot of blue to do. That's why I went for a PVE goon node.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,454 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2022
    Update: there are still nodes in puzzle gauntlet that let you hard kill the enemy. Try this on the MODOK/Jean Grey node, or the Rocket/Rulk/Banner node which has more health.
  • Kolence
    Kolence Posts: 969 Critical Contributor
    I used Ronan in the latest shield training, for Mordo SL Thing node. 
    Needed two tries, almost didn't make it in time the second try too, but he got to a fairly flooded board just before they had enough AP in key powers. Matched a few on my move and it was over. It certainly counts all of them for each tile that's being destroyed (by matching them, in this case). 
  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,236 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2022
    I think they did it from a thematic point of view. In other words Carol destroying her own teams tiles just seems like the wrong thing to do (ie not heroic).
    Technically speaking, not destroying her own teams tiles when her green fires is a boost, not a nerf because you still have the tiles after the Green power resolves and any non-destroyed strikes would add to the damage when all the additional rows are destroyed. It's only considered a nerf by some of the player base because of the interaction with BRB/Polaris (corner case).
    She desperately needs a rework of her powers because she's just so lame right now and her 4* version is just so good. The disappointment when she was released is another reason why so many were unhappy because they SO MUCH wanted to find a way to make her relevant.
    KGB
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,454 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2022
    He would be so good with a bulk repeater shortener or a bishop-level blue battery, which we are unlikely to see again. Anyway, that's my theory for the nerf, I just don't buy that the brb  combo needed to get removed and they nerfed the least critical component of the whole thing.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,454 Chairperson of the Boards
    KGB said:
    I think they did it from a thematic point of view. In other words Carol destroying her own teams tiles just seems like the wrong thing to do (ie not heroic).
    Technically speaking, not destroying her own teams tiles when her green fires is a boost, not a nerf because you still have the tiles after the Green power resolves and any non-destroyed strikes would add to the damage when all the additional rows are destroyed. It's only considered a nerf by some of the player base because of the interaction with BRB/Polaris (corner case).
    She desperately needs a rework of her powers because she's just so lame right now and her 4* version is just so good. The disappointment when she was released is another reason why so many were unhappy because they SO MUCH wanted to find a way to make her relevant.
    KGB
    Her yellow generating passive that was intended to fuel her yellow bro-toss heal move is still in place, but unable to be fired on her own. So it's definitely a nerf to her intended design.
  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,236 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2022
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    KGB said:
    I think they did it from a thematic point of view. In other words Carol destroying her own teams tiles just seems like the wrong thing to do (ie not heroic).
    Technically speaking, not destroying her own teams tiles when her green fires is a boost, not a nerf because you still have the tiles after the Green power resolves and any non-destroyed strikes would add to the damage when all the additional rows are destroyed. It's only considered a nerf by some of the player base because of the interaction with BRB/Polaris (corner case).
    She desperately needs a rework of her powers because she's just so lame right now and her 4* version is just so good. The disappointment when she was released is another reason why so many were unhappy because they SO MUCH wanted to find a way to make her relevant.
    KGB
    Her yellow generating passive that was intended to fuel her yellow bro-toss heal move is still in place, but unable to be fired on her own. So it's definitely a nerf to her intended design.
    You mean it's unable to be self boosted. It can still be fired by gathering the Yellow AP.
    And she can still technically get the Red Passive to generate Yellow if you destroy a row/column containing a strike tile with a match 4/5.
    Personally I'd rather she didn't destroy my special tiles so I'm OK with the change.
    KGB
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,454 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2022
    yeah, at launch she had a concept that allowed her to generate self-synergy, and then they just broke that by making her Star Lord 2 this way. I was referring to triggering that passive effect herself.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,454 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2022
    entrailbucket said:
    Reading through this, it is absolutely insane how many people were upset about this here, and how upset they were.  A lot of other players didn't even notice that it happened, or maybe knew but didn't care.  In certain circles this didn't even come up.  I had no idea it happened at all.

    I think the problem is that the "right" players weren't affected by it.
    I think there are few contributing factors: some of us had just gotten her champed at this time, maybe that was just me I'm not sure. But I think the larger picture was that at least in the years I'd been paying attention, this is to my knowledge the only "hidden nerf" that has hit the game. Previous 5* nerfs had come with sellback options and explanations and comparison threads. This one just...happened and it was like "did we make it up that she used to work a certain way?" So I think there was an element of "what could happen NEXT to a character that actually IS important?" to some of it. This was also a time when a lot of us were still not smooth-sailing through challenge nodes, and this danvers/brb/polaris team was a more reliable way to clear those even though it wasn't lightning fast or anything. So it was a tool that some early 5* or transitional 5* players were using even if it wasn't like a real strong one.
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,828 Chairperson of the Boards
    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/925/ragnarok-dark-avengers/p13

    This one didn't get an in game announcement either!
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,454 Chairperson of the Boards
    That was definitely before my time lol; was that back when it still has “:Dark Avengers” in the game title?
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,828 Chairperson of the Boards
    That was actually not before my time, sadly.  I got my last cover for Ragnarok by winning a lightning round finally, bringing him to 5/5 (he only had two powers then) and maxing his level out.  The very next day I logged in and he'd been changed with no notice or announcement.

    Initially his red power cost 2ap at 5 covers and his green cost 6.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2022
    Ronan's repeater damage don't trigger when his repeaters are fortified. Here's the context:

    There are 4 fortified Ronan's repeaters on the board. Damage is 1728 per repeater.

    Strike tiles strength on the board is 1698.

    HT's red power deals 1445 + 722 bonus damage per repeater + tiles destroyed (to the target only).

    First firing: 6031 damage to all three enemies. Calculation: 1445 + (722*4) + 1698. None from Ronan's repeaters.

    Second firing: 6187 / 6031 to the other two non-target enemies. The bonus damage is from the 4 repeaters destroyed.

    Then the target ate another 19891 damage from Ronan's repeaters.

    There wasn't any cascade from the second firing.

    It does seem to suggest that Ronan's repeaters triggered 4 times but I can't figure out the calculation for 19891. If Ronan's repeaters triggered 4 times, it means his repeaters dealt 10 x 1728 + 1698. But I don't know where the extra 913 damage come from. I was using IM40 as the third.

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,454 Chairperson of the Boards
    His math is super odd for sure, but he does hit very hard if you have the repeaters out.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Indeed his math is odd, that's why I filed a bug report previously because it was doing lesser damage than expected. They fixed it but it seems that it's still wonky. At least, it seems to be doing more damage than expected. :D

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