4.0 Packs Changes

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  • boopers
    boopers Posts: 175 Tile Toppler
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    ApexMatrix said:

    If I recieve vip packs after THB releases and don't open them till the next set, will they include that next set?
    If you have stored packs from VIP, they will behave as they always have when Theros launches - and will contain access to Theros cards.

    Once the next set launches in 3 months or so, the new rules apply to all your packs. 
    - If you have VIP packs remaining that you received during or before Theros, they will only contain Theros cards.  
    - If you have Standard non-dup packs that you received during or before Theros, they will only contain cards with Theros and other standard sets that were standard while Theros was the current set.
    - New VIP packs you receive after the next set launches will have only that set.
    - New standard non-dup packs you receive after the next set launches will have all sets that are standard at that time.
  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,231 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Thanks, Oktagon, we appreciate the effort. 
  • mrixl2520
    mrixl2520 Posts: 240 Tile Toppler
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    GrizzoMtGPQ said:
    Let's play a game! I think these are some of the axioms of our overlords. Any you think I missed?

    D3 Axioms:
    • Every bad will choice that can be made will be made.
    • Don't communicate. If you do communicate do so in the most infuriating way possible without first consulting anyone who plays the game.
    • ?????
    • Profit!
  • Volrak
    Volrak Posts: 732 Critical Contributor
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    Thank you @Oktagon_Support for not only responding quickly but also changing plans quickly once you received the feedback.
  • Aeroplane
    Aeroplane Posts: 314 Mover and Shaker
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    They keep taking away and giving less....
  • Gunmix25
    Gunmix25 Posts: 1,435 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Aeroplane said:
    They keep taking away and giving less....


    How so? When VIP was instituted it was incredibly lucrative. I was able to collect what should have taken me at least 18 months, pre-VIP, in the matter of 3 months. some 65 mythics and some 43 rares in legacy... that's not including the standard cards I was missing. It was super rich in non-dupe cards my opinion.

    They needed to make a change as they were giving too much. We all have seen the posts, mine included, in which many of us have absolutely nothing to collect because the overly rich VIP program fattened us up far too quickly than they anticipated. (though I suspect a simply mathematical formula would have caught that problem before they instituted VIP last June.) They need to take something away to give this game some longevity. I am okay with the change starting with the set after the next. Not crazy about the crafting restrictions, but that affects the veterans like me who have everything more than the newer players who are trying to collect whatever the game will give them to be competitive.


  • Aeroplane
    Aeroplane Posts: 314 Mover and Shaker
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    Gunmix25 said:

    Aeroplane said:
    They keep taking away and giving less....


    How so? When VIP was instituted it was incredibly lucrative. I was able to collect what should have taken me at least 18 months, pre-VIP, in the matter of 3 months. some 65 mythics and some 43 rares in legacy... that's not including the standard cards I was missing. It was super rich in non-dupe cards my opinion.

    They needed to make a change as they were giving too much. We all have seen the posts, mine included, in which many of us have absolutely nothing to collect because the overly rich VIP program fattened us up far too quickly than they anticipated. (though I suspect a simply mathematical formula would have caught that problem before they instituted VIP last June.) They need to take something away to give this game some longevity. I am okay with the change starting with the set after the next. Not crazy about the crafting restrictions, but that affects the veterans like me who have everything more than the newer players who are trying to collect whatever the game will give them to be competitive.


    If collecting cards is your thing that is fine, but it's all relative to how much someone should pay to be competitive in Platinum for an App that doesn't work properly, for specials that contain cards that don't work as intended, for events that people put time into only to crash, freeze or lock as they didn't put time into testing, for bugs that have been found by the community but are not fixed until the next set release or will be never fixed. Giving less  overlaps with monetary value , but it also includes making an effort to make quick fixes to known issues. Oktagon knows that it will come to a point where they can't keep piling on new mechanics onto the existing  shaky system. Now  if they were able to produce a smooth working game I wouldn't give a second thought with the changes they would make as it is a fun game.
  • Aeroplane
    Aeroplane Posts: 314 Mover and Shaker
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    Too add they would have had to change the information on the membership purchase page stating that only the current standard  cards would be pulled and future sets wouldn't be included with saved packs unless they knew they would postpone the VIP changes to begin with. If someone had bought the VIP anticipating the new release this would have lead to some serious implications.
  • Gunmix25
    Gunmix25 Posts: 1,435 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Aeroplane said:
    Gunmix25 said:

    Aeroplane said:
    They keep taking away and giving less....


    How so? When VIP was instituted it was incredibly lucrative. I was able to collect what should have taken me at least 18 months, pre-VIP, in the matter of 3 months. some 65 mythics and some 43 rares in legacy... that's not including the standard cards I was missing. It was super rich in non-dupe cards my opinion.

    They needed to make a change as they were giving too much. We all have seen the posts, mine included, in which many of us have absolutely nothing to collect because the overly rich VIP program fattened us up far too quickly than they anticipated. (though I suspect a simply mathematical formula would have caught that problem before they instituted VIP last June.) They need to take something away to give this game some longevity. I am okay with the change starting with the set after the next. Not crazy about the crafting restrictions, but that affects the veterans like me who have everything more than the newer players who are trying to collect whatever the game will give them to be competitive.


    If collecting cards is your thing that is fine, but it's all relative to how much someone should pay to be competitive in Platinum for an App that doesn't work properly, for specials that contain cards that don't work as intended, for events that people put time into only to crash, freeze or lock as they didn't put time into testing, for bugs that have been found by the community but are not fixed until the next set release or will be never fixed. Giving less  overlaps with monetary value , but it also includes making an effort to make quick fixes to known issues. Oktagon knows that it will come to a point where they can't keep piling on new mechanics onto the existing  shaky system. Now  if they were able to produce a smooth working game I wouldn't give a second thought with the changes they would make as it is a fun game.
    A well written and good response, but it doesn't really answer why you think they're giving less and taking more.

    I've been playing since nov. 2016. Bugs were rampant back when Hibernium was around. Sadly they refused to fix anything until it affected the game like, freezes or soft locks. Then they would fix that and only that and leave the rest. We were constantly griping about how bad the quality of life was for a player pre-oktagon. Not to mention events that were designed to require specific cards ... that first AHK coalition event. *rollseyes* anyways, the point is that problem have been in this game for ages. You nailed it in one in regards to how adding more and more alternative effects to interact with older effects is eventually going to crash the game. I wholeheartedly agree... but the irony in that is that Oktagon is giving us more... the glitchy program trying to run those newly given effects creates more problems and more issues... taking Oktagon's focus from development and more on continuity of play. In here some players are happy to not get a new set if Oktagon will skip it and focus exclusively on the quality of game play rather than develop and release more effects into the game. But then how does Oktagon stay afloat without new material bringing In income? Others would cry foul if a skip were to occur, and I don't blame them either. A fine balance of repair and development needs to made here but I suspect that the number of staff prevents that from being a reality. 

    Anyways, Oktagon has given us information, timely repairs, listened to the forums and responded in kind, given us fun effects, ways to earn crystals, jewels and orbs, introduced VIP, produced more value packs for purchase, broke Hibernium's clause about never selling jewels for cash...we now can. On and on. The only detraction here is that an ever growing pool of weird buggy interactions is growing. One I am fully sure Hibernium would have faced at this point in the game too... not something they have taken away from us.
    ... it's something broken at its core and they are trying to mend it on the go. I cannot see how they can in the next year without a set skip.
  • NickBKK
    NickBKK Posts: 90 Match Maker
    edited January 2020
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    To be fair, packs that have already been bought/obtained should retain their qualities at the time they were bought/obtain, and Dev can make any changes to all future packs how ever they wish. 

    Is this doable? 
  • Azerack
    Azerack Posts: 501 Critical Contributor
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    GrizzoMtGPQ said:
    Let's play a game! I think these are some of the axioms of our overlords. Any you think I missed?

    D3 Axioms:
    • Every bad will choice that can be made will be made in a way that is supposed to seem innocent and harmless.
    • Don't communicate. If you do communicate do so in the most infuriating and vague way possible without first consulting anyone who plays the game.
    Thought I would not really fix but addend that for you. :)

    Honestly, it's still the silliest changes I think I've ever seen since the original layout of the VIP membership (and it's communication, too..)...

    Okay, I'm probably being generous, there are plenty of other changes, I'm sure, that my esteemed fellow veteran players can easily point out, but I'm quite tired, today.  ;)

    I can't do anything about the Booster crafting, which honestly, also makes no sense because plenty of players have been playing for a LONG time and acquire the material to craft a lot. In fact, when THAT first came out many of us (if not all) started hoarding our card packs so we could get mana runes AND booster crafting material to what? Start crafting as much as we could.

    So, basically, what I'm reading is, "Those veterans and VIP's are getting the new expansion cards too quickly! We must find a way to get more money out of them while making things 'even' for everyone when an expansion comes out. I mean, just because they've been playing for YEARS, doesn't mean they should have any advantage over new players.." 

    ...wait, what?.. 

    So, yeah.. "Yay", they're waiting for the NEXT expansion to "nerf" VIP booster and standard packs.. just means they'll get another month or two of my $30/month before I cancel then... 

    Meanwhile, I guess I'll open all those 31 legacy packs that I've been hoarding for no real reason other than fantasizing I wouldn't actually get all of a current expansion until it went to Legacy... ;) 


  • Bil
    Bil Posts: 831 Critical Contributor
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    NickBKK said:
    To be fair, packs that have already been bought/obtained should retain their qualities at the time they were bought/obtain, and Dev can make any changes to all future packs how ever they wish. 

    Is this doable? 
    This IS actually the only fair deal regarding these future changes.

    What we have here is just a lesser evil ... But it is far from being a fair resolution.


    1) Being forced to crack all your stockpile on theros means a non-optimized use of VIP packs ... And thats not what players have paid for.

    2) if players still have stockpiled packs after theros they will end screwed anyway ... Thats still unfair.

    3) players that have stockpiled already are "forced" to suspend their VIP status until the set After theros is released .... And their VIP level will decrease instead of growing UP ... What are you planning to do to adress that?

    4) Nothing official has been stated on this point, but if it is actually an illegal move to change the content of a product when it has been purchased for cash already ... Well ... Laws don't change when a New mtgpq set IS released.
  • ZW2007-
    ZW2007- Posts: 812 Critical Contributor
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    I'll weigh in here. In no way, shape, or form is this good for the players. I was going to write a long post but why bother. I quit when WAR came out and came back when ELD came out and was able to catch up pretty easily thanks to my hoarding of packs and crystals. I used to spend money on this game, I completely stopped after paying for VIP for one month. This made coming back during ELD feasible. I still have standard packs from leveling up and a few VIP packs. If things remained the same, I'd probably continue playing and maybe spend some money sporadically as I saw things I really liked and wanted immediately. With this change, I will just quit the game for good and not worry about being able to come back. 

    So to reiterate, before the announcement, I was a potential source of revenue. Now, I am no longer a potential source of revenue.

    Hopefully everyone else feels the same and stops paying them money to treat us worse than dirt on their shoes. Maybe they'll sell the IP to a company that cares and knows what they're doing.
  • Aeroplane
    Aeroplane Posts: 314 Mover and Shaker
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    .  The reason for delaying booster crafting until a new set has arrived is to water down the VIP boosters hoping you haven't collected all the commons , uncommons. and rares. If the VIP overlaps a new set , say you receive a booster in the first week you'll a have a high chance of getting poor cards. You'll have to have patience for a 2-3 sets and luckily time your purchase of VIP one month before a new set arrives to have the best chance of getting good cards. What's not in your favor is Oktagon gives no indication when a new set is released. They are hoping people will "whale" more as they decreased the window of getting good cards and obviously people holding onto packs becomes null and void. Before for the semi non whales you could blow all your yellows for a month to increase your booster crafting pool, then craft , then finally get one month VIP to fill out your set and then cancel it. Delaying the booster crafting goes hand in hand with the VIP nerf. I believe they shot themselves in the foot as VIP becomes very unattractive with the sneaky slip of booster crafting.
  • Pantagruel
    Pantagruel Posts: 79 Match Maker
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    The pack change has started to have an effect; I didn't buy the alt art card which was available from Fblthp today. I already have the vanilla version of the card, so I don't need it to play with, just to make my collection more complete. Also, I never play with the vanilla version of the card.

    Honestly, Vanguards are terrible, aren't they? They're almost all underpowered, and they cause Greg to lag when making his move, even though they are, what, 3 sets old now? (It's obvious that Oktagon will never fix this lag problem, despite the fact that they continue to create new Vanguards!)

    But: is it bad for the game that I (a mostly FTP, non-VIP player) no longer have enough resources to fritter away on bad cards I will never play? I think, perhaps, it is not?
  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,231 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Pantagruel said:

    Honestly, Vanguards are terrible, aren't they? 

    I donno, I use certain vanguards all the time.  Off the top of my head, I consistently use Tamiyo, Liliana, Ashiok, Narset, Sorin, Ral, Teferi (well, that one crashes the game, so not currently), Ajani, Nicol Bolas, and Ugin.  I do agree that a lot of them are terrible, but that's also true of, well, most MTGPQ cards.  

    I agree that the lagginess can be ridiculous, the currency-grab is irritating, and the continued segmentation of supports is lame, but as far as gameplay goes I've had a good time with the vanguards and think they were a clever addition to the game. 

  • Ampersand
    Ampersand Posts: 206 Tile Toppler
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    One thing I really like about vanguards is that they are difficult for Greg to remove. Many are junk, but I have found fun uses for many others. Oddly, I think there are more clunker mythic vanguards than rare vanguards, and the way dupe/non-dupe vanguard purchases work, the rares are actually more difficult to acquire.
  • Bil
    Bil Posts: 831 Critical Contributor
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    Its pretty hard to consider vanguards as a whole, they are completely unbalanced regardless of their rarity.

    I'd say for example that some of the M20 rare vanguards are pretty good for their cost (ajani or Vivien) while i found the mythics very underwhelming.

    War vanguards are Also completely random, Narset is an amazing rare, while Chandra is just a terrible mythic. 

    In the middle of all this mess, the best thing to do IS to Snipe the good ones thanks to Philip planechase and give a lucky try on vanguards packs If one if them looks good enough...and just cross fingers.
    I wouldnt give more than one shot on a pack with a single playable vanguard because loosing 1200 for Nothing IS much more painful than loosing 400.

    However, catching them all IS good for completionists at best ... But its a total waste of ressources because most of them would Never see play.

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