Is this working as intended?

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  • ZootSax
    ZootSax Posts: 1,819 Chairperson of the Boards
    TPF Alexis said:
    fight4thedream said:
    The problem as I see it is that a lot of players choose to not think outside of the box when dealing with these teams because they believe that 5* teams should automatically trump everything else.
    Forget the tiers. Taking three Level 450-ish Characters against a team with one 450-something and a couple of 280s should be a piece of cake, not a suicide run. Nothing should be able to punch that far above its own Level when being run by the AI. The fact that they can chew up a trio of 550s more or less as easily takes it from ridiculous to flat out insane.
    I have wondered recently if the people defending Bishop as being balanced and reasonable would still think so if 1* Yelena Belova, 2* Bullseye and 3* Sentry were given Bishop’s skill set scaled such that it triggered on match damage from champed characters in the tier above.  I suspect those attitudes may change...

    (and, yes, I deliberately chose 3 Dark Avengers, just so PVE-only players could join the “fun”)
  • fight4thedream
    fight4thedream GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,975 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2019
    CharlieCroker said:
    I'm sorry @fight4thedream but don't you see anything wrong with the fact that a player with multiple 550's wants to put out a team with low levelled 4*s to deter hits?

    These broken characters don't improve balance or the meta, they just make the game unplayable for, imo, the vast majority who want to to play a simple match 3 game and find the basic mechanics of the game punishing them for making that match 3.

    And for those players who enjoy more variety, including myself and yourself, each event we have a large stable of non-meta 5* and both boosted and unboosted 4*s we can use to hit the standard 5* meta teams if we wish to do so and want more of a challenge than simply running teams over with Thorkoye or Gritty.

    Without question, it certainly is a break with convention and I can certainly understand why people who have invested a lot time and/or money might find it frustrating but I will be honest with you, I personally think it makes the game more interesting. Perhaps it's because I have played other games where synergy between tiers plays just as important a role as overall rarity. In fact, some of the most common mistakes players make in some games is thinking that if they load their deck with only high rare cards they will win.  Now obviously MPQ is a different beast but I would prefer it if the game encouraged inter-tier synergy over a simplistic 550's should automatically win and/or be unbeatable.

    You say Bishop and Worthy Cap don't improve balance or the meta but I disagree. JJ was considered a B tier character since Okoye/Thor can basically ignore her passive defensive power but now with Bishop as a partner, she has a proper place in high PvP.  Hawkeye, largely forgotten despite his synergy with Coulson, is now back with Worthy Cap. Silver Surfer, largely ignored by many competitive players in favor for the OML/Phoenix meta, now has a role to play because of his stun immunity.

    If anything, more 5* characters are relevant than ever. Nerf Bishop/Worthy Cap and those characters once again fall by the wayside. 

    I understand the situation isn't perfect. In fact, I don't think things should stay this way. But instead of rushing to nerf the mechanic, a proper set of counter mechanics should be introduced. For example, a 5* character that is stun-immune and reflects stun powers to the opponent or a 4* character that stuns the opponent team for 2 turns any time an ally is stunned. There are many kinds of possible solutions. Yes, I am aware the dev team doesn't have the best track record when it comes to designing counter mechanics but still I think it is a cause worth championing.

    This is Marvel Puzzle Quest after all and I appreciate the sense of challenge these characters bring to the game. Ask yourself, how often were you losing before the arrival of Bishop and Worthy Cap? Obviously that answer will differ for various people, but I have a feeling people who were running the Okoye/Thor meta weren't losing very often. There were even people talking about how they never ran out of health packs playing PvP using that team.

    And let's be clear here: defeating Okoye/Thor is not really an accomplishment for most 5* tier players if you know what you are doing and play with the intention of winning. I do on occasion play a variety of teams, especially in SIM, but there are no stakes in those battles. It's something I do to goof off, test potential character synergies and just to have fun. Sometimes I lose due to a bad board or a careless misstep on my part but there's no sense of urgency in those matches.

    But in proper PvP, if you are competing for rank, things get a lot more interesting when you can no longer simply Thor/Okoye a team away or put out a sub par team to deal with a team that has an effective defensive mechanic. You have to judge your own roster strength, your ability to defeat such teams and the likelihood your team will draw hits. 

    As has been mentioned before, high end PvP before Bishop/Worthy Cap was never a question of whether or not I can win a match but rather simply if I could simply out perform other players in point acquisition. Do you think that is a healthy PvP system?  Currently for proper PvP we have: Thor/Okoye, Kitty/Grocket, BP/Thanos, Bishop/Jessica, Hawkeye/Worthy Cap with Black Suit Spider-man serving as a Kitty/Grocket counter and Silver Surfer and Black Panther serving as a Bishop & Worth Cap counter. 

    Is this not a step in the right direction?

    And as for the accusation that proposed counter teams don't work, I do use them to varying levels of success depending on the strength of the opponent's team. But I don't have a problem losing. I just try again. Figuring out how to win is part of the puzzle, after all.
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,821 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2019
    IF the devs had said to themselves "we need to shake up the meta with a good, cheap stun in the 5 tier" that would have been possible.

    The cheapest, fastest stun is BSSM, 6AP for one turn.  Iceman is theoretically cheaper but of course extremely uneven on defense, and they seem to have felt the need to balance his basically-passive stun with slow damage dealing.  And his stun isn't all that easy to pull off and keep going.

    They could release a 5 with a decent cheap stun that is similar to, say, Gamora's and at least you'd feel like you had a fighting chance vs being forced into a super long stun situation or watching banners go by for 5 minutes leading to a number of stunned teammates.

    It just isn't fun.

    It is interesting that they have made many recent 4's have crazy passives that work at low covers, which I assume is their tacit acknowledgement that the dilution issue has made it so hard to get people covered, let alone champed, let alone a high-level champ.  But the extremely low barrier of entry for these passives on 4's is also apparently "allowed" in their design budget because they are 4's and therefore (theoretically) die sooner.

    I worry about the future of the game as they keep piling more characters in and continue to try to make them have an impact in what are already very crowded tiers.  What is the next hairtrigger 4 going to be like?

    EDIT:  It is interesting and a bit disappointing that in all the time (a year) since Bishop was released we have never had a single official comment on his design despite numerous nerf threads. There is a rumored nerf coming but maybe that’s just one of those things they are thinking about. 
  • Tony_Foot
    Tony_Foot Posts: 1,814 Chairperson of the Boards
    Sm0keyJ0e said:


    It's not interesting, it's not strategy, it's not fun. Nearly everyone I know skips.
    This is true, I have tested this multiple times in SIM and pick 2 pvp. I have climbed to 1300 in sim currently and was T10 as I went straight there. I was worth a lot of points and only time I've been hit was from a retal on my climb who would have been seeing Xpool Thor Okoye. I kept a note of the names who I climbed off. So I'm on day 3 with no hits with Bishop team and if someone has it's been a blue for me. Last season I almost went 2 weeks over 1500 with one red.

    HE and Worthy are worse for me though because pick two that team is still formidable. That would be the team I left out if my HE was any good. Both are terrible to play against but I think HE team is more of a pain.

    Right now I'd love a way to get Clint. If he's in the Carnage release store I'm all over it.
  • NotBAMF
    NotBAMF Posts: 408 Mover and Shaker
    I have noticed that, as a 4* player with no 5* champs and no 5* character higher than 330, I am getting creamed by players with 5* champ rosters in PVP a LOT less often since Bishop has come along. I used to frequently get hit by PVP players that SHOULD have been way over my paygrade, even if they had more PVP points than I did (the retals would be 40-60 points) because they basically knew I couldn't hit back. 

    Maybe it's coincidence, or maybe Bishop is making 5* players think twice about walloping 4* players that, prior to Bishop, had no hope of retaliating against them. And if that's the case, I'm becoming a much bigger fan of Bishop. 


  • Tony_Foot
    Tony_Foot Posts: 1,814 Chairperson of the Boards
    NotBAMF said:
    I have noticed that, as a 4* player with no 5* champs and no 5* character higher than 330, I am getting creamed by players with 5* champ rosters in PVP a LOT less often since Bishop has come along. I used to frequently get hit by PVP players that SHOULD have been way over my paygrade, even if they had more PVP points than I did (the retals would be 40-60 points) because they basically knew I couldn't hit back. 

    Maybe it's coincidence, or maybe Bishop is making 5* players think twice about walloping 4* players that, prior to Bishop, had no hope of retaliating against them. And if that's the case, I'm becoming a much bigger fan of Bishop. 


    I have low level 5* champs. All in the 450-460 range and I never see 4* only teams in pvp unless someone has left one out to be hit. If seeing worthy and Bishop in a 4* only match was there I'd jump on that in a flash. Every thing I see has a minimum of one five star with those teams.
  • Sm0keyJ0e
    Sm0keyJ0e Posts: 730 Critical Contributor
    NotBAMF said:
    I have noticed that, as a 4* player with no 5* champs and no 5* character higher than 330, I am getting creamed by players with 5* champ rosters in PVP a LOT less often since Bishop has come along. I used to frequently get hit by PVP players that SHOULD have been way over my paygrade, even if they had more PVP points than I did (the retals would be 40-60 points) because they basically knew I couldn't hit back. 

    Maybe it's coincidence, or maybe Bishop is making 5* players think twice about walloping 4* players that, prior to Bishop, had no hope of retaliating against them. And if that's the case, I'm becoming a much bigger fan of Bishop. 



    I can only assume that you would be ok if there were 3* teams everywhere running the same 3* that every 3* player in the world had that caused you to skip them, even if they were worth good points? You would be ok hitting dual max-boosted meta 4*'s because you would rather roll the dice with that team than face that endless wall of 3* teams that are likely to end poorly?

    Sounds reasonable.

    I have yet to hear any of these 4* players that are ok with this Bishop meta defending a similar 3* meta.
  • NotBAMF
    NotBAMF Posts: 408 Mover and Shaker
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    NotBAMF said:
    I have noticed that, as a 4* player with no 5* champs and no 5* character higher than 330, I am getting creamed by players with 5* champ rosters in PVP a LOT less often since Bishop has come along. I used to frequently get hit by PVP players that SHOULD have been way over my paygrade, even if they had more PVP points than I did (the retals would be 40-60 points) because they basically knew I couldn't hit back. 

    Maybe it's coincidence, or maybe Bishop is making 5* players think twice about walloping 4* players that, prior to Bishop, had no hope of retaliating against them. And if that's the case, I'm becoming a much bigger fan of Bishop. 



    I can only assume that you would be ok if there were 3* teams everywhere running the same 3* that every 3* player in the world had that caused you to skip them, even if they were worth good points? You would be ok hitting dual max-boosted meta 4*'s because you would rather roll the dice with that team than face that endless wall of 3* teams that are likely to end poorly?

    Sounds reasonable.

    I have yet to hear any of these 4* players that are ok with this Bishop meta defending a similar 3* meta.
    I don't think it's fair that I should even be able to see 3* teams because it's not fair to them that I can hit them and basically not fear retaliation because I'm not on the same grade as 3* players. So if that was the case, it would be perfectly fair, sure.

  • Sm0keyJ0e
    Sm0keyJ0e Posts: 730 Critical Contributor
    NotBAMF said:
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    NotBAMF said:
    I have noticed that, as a 4* player with no 5* champs and no 5* character higher than 330, I am getting creamed by players with 5* champ rosters in PVP a LOT less often since Bishop has come along. I used to frequently get hit by PVP players that SHOULD have been way over my paygrade, even if they had more PVP points than I did (the retals would be 40-60 points) because they basically knew I couldn't hit back. 

    Maybe it's coincidence, or maybe Bishop is making 5* players think twice about walloping 4* players that, prior to Bishop, had no hope of retaliating against them. And if that's the case, I'm becoming a much bigger fan of Bishop. 



    I can only assume that you would be ok if there were 3* teams everywhere running the same 3* that every 3* player in the world had that caused you to skip them, even if they were worth good points? You would be ok hitting dual max-boosted meta 4*'s because you would rather roll the dice with that team than face that endless wall of 3* teams that are likely to end poorly?

    Sounds reasonable.

    I have yet to hear any of these 4* players that are ok with this Bishop meta defending a similar 3* meta.
    I don't think it's fair that I should even be able to see 3* teams because it's not fair to them that I can hit them and basically not fear retaliation because I'm not on the same grade as 3* players. So if that was the case, it would be perfectly fair, sure.


    You are now talking about a completely different issue (MMR) which has been discussed in numerous other threads. The OP in this thread is discussing the pervasiveness of particular 4* characters that are incredibly difficult to take on with his stash of 550 level 5*'s. 
  • NotBAMF
    NotBAMF Posts: 408 Mover and Shaker
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    NotBAMF said:
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    NotBAMF said:
    I have noticed that, as a 4* player with no 5* champs and no 5* character higher than 330, I am getting creamed by players with 5* champ rosters in PVP a LOT less often since Bishop has come along. I used to frequently get hit by PVP players that SHOULD have been way over my paygrade, even if they had more PVP points than I did (the retals would be 40-60 points) because they basically knew I couldn't hit back. 

    Maybe it's coincidence, or maybe Bishop is making 5* players think twice about walloping 4* players that, prior to Bishop, had no hope of retaliating against them. And if that's the case, I'm becoming a much bigger fan of Bishop. 



    I can only assume that you would be ok if there were 3* teams everywhere running the same 3* that every 3* player in the world had that caused you to skip them, even if they were worth good points? You would be ok hitting dual max-boosted meta 4*'s because you would rather roll the dice with that team than face that endless wall of 3* teams that are likely to end poorly?

    Sounds reasonable.

    I have yet to hear any of these 4* players that are ok with this Bishop meta defending a similar 3* meta.
    I don't think it's fair that I should even be able to see 3* teams because it's not fair to them that I can hit them and basically not fear retaliation because I'm not on the same grade as 3* players. So if that was the case, it would be perfectly fair, sure.


    You are now talking about a completely different issue (MMR) which has been discussed in numerous other threads. The OP in this thread is discussing the pervasiveness of particular 4* characters that are incredibly difficult to take on with his stash of 550 level 5*'s. 
    And what I'm saying is that I do think Bishop (I have no experience with Cap; mine is 0/3/3) IS working because he has made a little mini-shield for 4* players. He has been a fix against the MMR problems I have seen, and that is a good thing.
  • Sm0keyJ0e
    Sm0keyJ0e Posts: 730 Critical Contributor
    I know you want to discount Surfer as a viable counter, but he has brought me the most success so far.

    You have been playing for 5+ years! You are the .05% that have a usable version of this guy!

    So the "most success" you've had fighting a broke **** 4* is via a well-champed toon you were able to champ eons ago.

    Pray tell--what is 2-year-vet Bob supposed to do??
  • Polares
    Polares Posts: 2,643 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2019
    fight4thedream said:
    There are counters to Bishop and Cap in the 5* tier, specifically Silver Surfer and Black Panther. Obviously a few more characters that had stronger anti-stun mechanics would be very much appreciated but it's not like they don't exist. The problem as I see it is that a lot of players choose to not think outside of the box when dealing with these teams because they believe that 5* teams should automatically trump everything else.  If you know that 5* match damage is going to trigger their passive, then the solution is to simply make sure your whole team doesn't consist of 5*s.  There are a plethora of characters at your disposal, I am sure you can find a combination that works for you against such teams. You just have to let go of the idea that you need to always be fielding 5*s to win. 


    Please stop saying counters exist for those two 4s. Silver Surfer is no counter for Bishop, and it is even worse against CapWorthy! And neither is BP (if he is dead before he leaves being stunned, he can not counter anything). You keep repeating this mantra as if it was going to make it true at some point in every single thread this comes up, but this is not true. 

    Those are not viable counters (viable is the important word there). Being unstunnable doesn't not make them a viable counter.
  • MegaBee
    MegaBee Posts: 1,044 Chairperson of the Boards
    BriMan2222 said:
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    I know you want to discount Surfer as a viable counter, but he has brought me the most success so far.

    You have been playing for 5+ years! You are the .05% that have a usable version of this guy!

    So the "most success" you've had fighting a broke tinykitty 4* is via a well-champed toon you were able to champ eons ago.

    Pray tell--what is 2-year-vet Bob supposed to do??
    I've been playing for 6 years, I'm a 5 star player and my Silver Surfer has like 3 covers.  You would have to have been not only playing back then, but also been lucky enough to get enough covers for him.  He was the first 5 star so hoarding was not possible for him.  You had to just be really lucky or spend enough money.  

    i would bet that Surfer is probably the least champed 5 star in the game.
    I'll add on to this. I'm on day 1534. My Silver Surfer is 3/3/3, and BSSM is 4/3/2. The only reason they have that many covers is that I pull from Classic Legends with the majority of my CP.
  • Therealsmkspy
    Therealsmkspy Posts: 254 Mover and Shaker
    edited October 2019
    MegaBee said:
    BriMan2222 said:
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    I know you want to discount Surfer as a viable counter, but he has brought me the most success so far.

    You have been playing for 5+ years! You are the .05% that have a usable version of this guy!

    So the "most success" you've had fighting a broke tinykitty 4* is via a well-champed toon you were able to champ eons ago.

    Pray tell--what is 2-year-vet Bob supposed to do??
    I've been playing for 6 years, I'm a 5 star player and my Silver Surfer has like 3 covers.  You would have to have been not only playing back then, but also been lucky enough to get enough covers for him.  He was the first 5 star so hoarding was not possible for him.  You had to just be really lucky or spend enough money.  

    i would bet that Surfer is probably the least champed 5 star in the game.
    I'll add on to this. I'm on day 1534. My Silver Surfer is 3/3/3, and BSSM is 4/3/2. The only reason they have that many covers is that I pull from Classic Legends with the majority of my CP.
    Heh, I'm like 30 days ahead of you and I'm willing to beat that you had the same problem as me when those early 5s were released. They completely wrecked your mmr for pve and pvp since you were still a baby roster.

    My first SS cover I foolishly level to 270 not knowing the effect it would have and I nearly quit the game because of that. Up to the point that mmr was fixed, I was forced to adopt a sell-off policy if I pulled a five.

    As it stands, the only viable counter is skip, skip, and skip. But that just leads to finding teams where you have to hit the same player over and over. I hate doing that but what other option is there if you don't have those counters.
  • fight4thedream
    fight4thedream GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,975 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2019
    OJSP said:
    fight4thedream said:
    I use 5* Thor lv 511, 5* Surfer lv 466 and the required 3*.
    Half health or full health?
    Usually half health since it's regular PvP plus Thor's passive does extra damage to Bishop and helps collect red AP. Obviously, with Bishop's Overclocked my Thor eats a bit of damage each match and there's the risk of JJ getting a trap tile off. I have lost Thor maybe once or twice this way but managed to pull off the win with Surfer since he competes for the same colors as JJ and can self heal. Not a pretty fight when things go wrong though.

    Haven't really tried full Thor enough to comment on whether it is the safer choice. 

    Sm0keyJ0e said:

    You have been playing for 5+ years! You are the .05% that have a usable version of this guy!

    So the "most success" you've had fighting a broke tinykitty 4* is via a well-champed toon you were able to champ eons ago.

    Pray tell--what is 2-year-vet Bob supposed to do??

    I imagine 2-year-vet Bob is supposed to figure out his own solution, if 2-year-vet Bob even has a viable 5* team. If anything, I imagine 2 year vet Bob is having a lot more trouble facing 5* Kitty/Grocket. 

    I have done you the courtesy of explaining my teams and strategies regarding Bishop, I think it only fair that you discuss what kind of teams you have been trying to use, what your strategy was and how successful you were. Are you actively trying to find a counter or have you already assumed that it can't be done? 

    Polares said:
    fight4thedream said:
    There are counters to Bishop and Cap in the 5* tier, specifically Silver Surfer and Black Panther. Obviously a few more characters that had stronger anti-stun mechanics would be very much appreciated but it's not like they don't exist. The problem as I see it is that a lot of players choose to not think outside of the box when dealing with these teams because they believe that 5* teams should automatically trump everything else.  If you know that 5* match damage is going to trigger their passive, then the solution is to simply make sure your whole team doesn't consist of 5*s.  There are a plethora of characters at your disposal, I am sure you can find a combination that works for you against such teams. You just have to let go of the idea that you need to always be fielding 5*s to win. 


    Please stop saying counters exist for those two 4s. Silver Surfer is no counter for Bishop, and it is even worse against CapWorthy! And neither is BP (if he is dead before he leaves being stunned, he can not counter anything). You keep repeating this mantra as if it was going to make it true at some point in every single thread this comes up, but this is not true. 
    Those are not viable counters (viable is the important word there). Being unstunnable doesn't not make them a viable counter.

    As for @Polares, I won't assume that they work well for everyone but I have found success using them so it comes across as disingenuous when those that are actively campaigning to nerf Bishop/Worthy Cap make claims that there are no counters for them run false to my own game experience. 

    I fully acknowledge they are not perfect counters and would very much like a buff for Surfer and new characters that had better counter mechanics. I also agree that a lack of access to acquiring Surfer is a legitimate issue. 

    But to state being unstunnable is not a legitimate counter to being stunned doesn't seem like a reasonable argument.  
  • Sm0keyJ0e
    Sm0keyJ0e Posts: 730 Critical Contributor
    MegaBee said:
    BriMan2222 said:
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    I know you want to discount Surfer as a viable counter, but he has brought me the most success so far.

    You have been playing for 5+ years! You are the .05% that have a usable version of this guy!

    So the "most success" you've had fighting a broke tinykitty 4* is via a well-champed toon you were able to champ eons ago.

    Pray tell--what is 2-year-vet Bob supposed to do??
    I've been playing for 6 years, I'm a 5 star player and my Silver Surfer has like 3 covers.  You would have to have been not only playing back then, but also been lucky enough to get enough covers for him.  He was the first 5 star so hoarding was not possible for him.  You had to just be really lucky or spend enough money.  

    i would bet that Surfer is probably the least champed 5 star in the game.
    I'll add on to this. I'm on day 1534. My Silver Surfer is 3/3/3, and BSSM is 4/3/2. The only reason they have that many covers is that I pull from Classic Legends with the majority of my CP.

    Thank you all for validating my point about Surfer.

    I actually have a champed Surfer and I still get destroyed by 350+ Bishops. Even with my Surfer having twice the health, Bishop does quadruple the damage when paired with Gritty. Also, if/when I'm able to down Bishop, either Rocket or Strange or HE or whatever other blue user they have has an arsenal of blue AP to deal with what's left of me.

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