Time, Effort, and Value Spent in MPQ

2

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  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    Vhailorx said:
    Phumade, without CS coverswaps, it will almost certainly take more than 39 covers to get 3x 5* champs.

    Additionally, you act as if 3x 5* champs is the ultimate goal.  But it's only 10% of the 5* tier. 

    "Why is that a problem? you say.  Because it's not 10% and growing up to 100.  It's 10% and that's it.  Wait for another 6-12 months to get 3 more and forget about those classics.

    Mpq is a game about roster building.  And you are taking the position that it's totally reasonable for 2 hours a day every day for 300+ days, plus $500-800 spent PLUS some RNG will likely get you 10% of the endgame tier, and about 1/2 of the penultimate tier (and it would actually be a bit less than that for a player who started today because dilution is worse now).

    That's just an absurd position. as is your argument that it is a peerless value. 

    For less money and less time spent in Warframe you grind up to MR 20 and buy all the prime gear you might want with platinum.  The only way to even spend that much money on destiny is to buy massive amounts of silver and brute force every cosmetic item in the game (and 800 hours played in destiny in a year would put you in the global top 10-20% for that game).

    Yes, <$1 an hour for entertainment is nominally good value.  But every hour of "entertainment" is not created equal; some are more entertaining than others. Much of the time spent in mpq is endless grinding of trivial nodes, or fight yet another dark avengers nodes to 6/6?  and I haven't event mentioned the 'schedule your life around it' nature of optimal play in pve and PvP.

    In both relative and absolute terms, I don't know concede that $500 for 800 hours of mpq is "good" value.


    laughable and presumptuous, honestly.  Why is your value of 1 hr of entertainment any more valid than my value of 1hr of entertainment ( which is still sub $1 btw)?  Believe me when I’m at the dmv, passing time against goons is no different than killing time grinding 75 wins against 5*

    and the key point here is that he did it without absurd number of buys or any weird alliance, or secret glitch knowledge.

    bottom line dude spent 500 dollars over 360 days/800 man hours and rostered 39 5*cover (if not significantly more ;). Multiple other players are reporting similar rates that don’t sound unreasonable at all.  If he had said $500 over 80hrs I would have laughed, $500 over 800hrs looks fantastic (and honestly no weirder than the avg GameStop customer profile) unless you think he should have paid 50.

    why are you making a big deal of 10% and quit?  Compared to literally every other AAA console game, The avg player completes 10% to 20% of the end tier content when finishing 1st pass (when I first beat halo I only found one skull in natural gameplay) Trust me I finished shadow of Mordor without feeling like I had to collect every sub quest and kill every bat in Y cave. Be honestly go look at your actual ps4/Xbox gamers score.  You would be in an incredibly small minority of players who can say they done 1 pass to the end game and experienced more than 1/4th of the end game content in even a simple majority of purchased game.  So consider whether your expectations are at all consistent with most active Xbox or ps4 profile  gamespend completion rates.

    the only other comparison I can offer you to help put this into perspective is this.  If I spent $60 for AAA title,  I would play around 40 to 50 hrs, do one pass on avg difficult, and expect to do 10 to 20 percent of available end game content before I got bored and bought a new and different AAA title.  As an aside,  I know for a fact that I haven’t felt any urge or interest in upgrading my ps4 to a pro. Which is a first for me personally.   Maybe I would buy one game every two months, but consider what 360 game days actually means.  He did t have to do it in one year.  Could have played every other day for two years and had the exact same result.


    The point is he has already achieved 3 viable 5* (presumably he could leverage those 3 and keep champing every subsequent 5*) and we shouldn’t discuss it like it’s an aspirational outcome but treat it as the typical expected outcome of simply waiting for slots before opening covers.  other players are reporting similar progress of 20 covers in 300 game days.  And they did it without astronomical buy clubs, weird sql glitches, or having an elite T10 alliance feeding them reward covers on a daily basis.

  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    As an aside why does anyone equate 3 5* champs as some mythic benchmark?  The dude clearly stated he was t25 ish in most of his pvp events and t10 in scl7.  He wasn’t late bracket sniping to goose his placements.  Those are all pretty typical results in my eyes.  His placements and roster is what a knowledgeable player should reasonably expect. Unless you think 2hrs a day is unreasonable play.

    and that example should be the guidepost to how anyone should be making their game play decisions.  I know it took me 720plus days to get my 3 5*.  
  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited April 2019
    Phumade said:

    and the key point here is that he did it without absurd number of buys or any weird alliance, or secret glitch knowledge.
    He did participate in a lot of buy clubs in the end to finish Kitty, and he did use the Preview exploit on Vaults to ensure he got the LT out of it.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    Bowgentle said:
    Phumade said:

    and the key point here is that he did it without absurd number of buys or any weird alliance, or secret glitch knowledge.
    He did participate in a lot of buy clubs in the end to finish Kitty, and he did use the Preview exploit on Vaults to ensure he got the LT out of it.
    What’s a lot of buy club means?  $500 is still $500 unless he was getting sponsored by money may in buy club ( where I’ll gladly retract my position and ask for an intro for a buy club daddy).   And as far as I heard preview never improved the number of 5* in a unhoard break.  The only lucky break he got as far as I can tell was the magical thorokey kitty store.

    but aside from that....   pretty typical and I have no doubts any one here could trash their current roster and relic,ate if not improve on his stats.


  • abenness
    abenness Posts: 228 Tile Toppler
    Phumade said:

    The first dude achieved 39 5* covers in 360 days.  I've now seen 2 additional posters tell me that they have between 20-30 covers in 300 days of play.  So its not an issue about the rate that covers get awarded.  All he did was wait until he saw meta level chars and spent cp hard for them.

    So based on 3 different people sharing their experiences, How exactly is achieving 39 5* covers in 360 days or 720 hours or $500 unusual or absurd?
    I have pulled 51 x 5* covers overall.
    At the end of 2018, I was earning HP faster than progression 4* covers (SCL 7 PVE & PVP), so I was ready to crack into my tokens, planning to slowly cover the rest of the 4* and slowly "wait for 3 good LL".

    Then I pulled 2 x yellow Kitty covers, used her boosted, and my mind was blown.  Decided to chase her, absolutely the right decision for me.

    If I hadn't chased her then, and had kept hoarding, you best believe I would have unloaded on the Thor/Okoye/Kitty store.

    @MoonKnight I would actually say you are closer than you think to a 5* champ, or a very usable 5* to complement a 4* roster, unless you have an unbalanced build with no Okoye Black. 

    It's reasonable to think that in a timeframe of months, you could pick up a cover randomly, a cover from a bonus hero, a cover from Shuri feeder, a cover from her next 250CP H4H, and a cover from a release store containing her.


    MPQ is a long-term proposition, some or even most toons would be de-valued if they were too easy to get.  I do hope that I'll still be a happy player in a year, but I admit that I don't know where my next 5* champ would come from, and I'm more concerned at the moment of getting them all for 5e nodes.

    It actually isn't that different from the ultra-rare drops in other online grindy games.  But hey, we have superheroes and the comic meta to enjoy also :)
  • MoonKnight
    MoonKnight Posts: 63 Match Maker
    @abenness she is actually 5/1/3. So the black is fine, but still a bad distribution for champing. I have been EXTREMELY lucky in the classics pulling her. I pulled 45 times from a mini hoard in the one store to rule them all (Thor/Okoye/kitty) and all I got was one Okoye red. But other than that, from classics and the small time she was in latests. 

    I think iso is the biggest issue for me now for hoarding. Trying to get 4* to 209 and getting the recently released 4* to 209 takes a ton of iso, and it doesn’t seem like even with a lot of play I’m going fast enough at the moment. I also don’t want to test MMR with one champed 5* with Kitty floating around. All I’ll see is Gritty with a champed 5* instead of 330ish. 
  • n25philly
    n25philly Posts: 426 Mover and Shaker
    Dogface said:
    "I mainly like to make the occasional small purchase to support the game because I like it so much" This always cracks me up. You purchase something to get something. If you were truly being altruistic, you'd give money for nothing in return.
    No, I am happy with the game as a free to play game.  I make small purchases during sales and such (usually no mare than maybe the $5 one) when I am happy with the game as this is one of the few games of this type where I truly don't feel punished for not having everything.  Even when I've made my biggest purchase, one of the bundles for around 20 something $ (I honestly forget the details of it as it was some time ago) I never felt like it really pushed me forward much.
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,822 Chairperson of the Boards
    n25philly said:
    Dogface said:
    "I mainly like to make the occasional small purchase to support the game because I like it so much" This always cracks me up. You purchase something to get something. If you were truly being altruistic, you'd give money for nothing in return.
    No, I am happy with the game as a free to play game.  I make small purchases during sales and such (usually no mare than maybe the $5 one) when I am happy with the game as this is one of the few games of this type where I truly don't feel punished for not having everything.  Even when I've made my biggest purchase, one of the bundles for around 20 something $ (I honestly forget the details of it as it was some time ago) I never felt like it really pushed me forward much.
    Part of my point of my thread I started (that this discussion spun off from) is that dilution and the huge number of characters means even spending on a bundle is going to have a very small impact on your overall roster and play.  Ex:  Last December I decided to buy the Carnage bundle for whatever that cost.  It gave like 6-9 covers and got him over 320 which meant an extra Doc Ock cover a few days later.  It was fun and I wanted the HP so I did it, but none of those covers - even as concentrated as they were - ultimately make much difference in vast sea of characters I have.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    n25philly said:
    Phumade said:
    n25philly said:
    Maybe the experience is different in a buy club where you are getting all kinds of bonuses, but every time I've spent money it feels like I get a small tick forward and i ended up feeling like kind of wasted it.  I mainly like to make the occasional small purchase to support the game because I like it so much.


    Let me rephrase this since you want to make this an emotional argument vs a real dollars vs hours spent.

    What do you think the appropriate pricing for 800 hrs of entertainment should be?  or let state it more bluntly.  What does progress mean in a game like MPQ?  Possessions in the electronic context are pointless, its not like I get to take my roster when I leave.  Once you leave this game, your roster is worthless.  So at the end, the only meaningful measure is how much money did you spend to waste those hours (win a match or got sniped you still got a rush/excitement).  and trust me compared to other activities $500 dollars for 800 hours of real time use is a very very reasonable proposition.

    Your fallacy which a lot of people make is trying to measure progress against other players and compare your spend/effort to their accomplishments.  

    but who cares about that in the long run?  at the end day for my time and money  MPQ is still the cheapest form of entertainment by a country mile does it really matter how I place or who I play for?


    I personally play this game because I enjoy it.  Not everyone plays to be at the top.  Hell, I didn't even champ my first 4* until right before day 1000.  I hope with every legendary pull that I don't pull 5*'s.  I guess I didn't get entertained because I didn't do it your way.  Dilution is a real a major problem in this game and trust me there are way, way more people that are going to get frustrated and leave then there are ones that are going to throw $500-800 on it.
    LOL 
    please you do you and enjoy the game how you want.  but please don't assume that random arbitrary players can't achieve 39 5* covers in 360 game days with 2hrs per day and  moderate spending (Sub $1 per hour of play) and don't make blanket statements on what is and isn't theoretically possible, cause the roadmap was laid out pretty explicitly.

    I said the exact same numbers, but hopefully in a more positively easily digestible fashion.  Please note 3 examples of random people who have less than 360 game days have all given their testimonials as to their placements, dollar spend and current rosters states.  So you should really put your feeling in the perspective of actual players going through that day 360 exp.

    If you don't think you can achieve those metrics.  please say that YOU can't get it done, not that the AVG player can't get it done.  because nothing those players have said pointed to an unfair or unlevel playing field.


    and speaking of dilution.  How did Dilution slow any of those players from 3 5* champs?  Near as i can tell all three players indicate that they can sustain their current level of performance on a 3 to 4 month basis.  I don't see how dilution affected their ability to compete beyond essentials and loaners.

    I play plenty of events with a weak 144 loaner and plenty with a maxduped 479.  my placements and scores really don't change in a meaningful way.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    n25philly said:
    Dogface said:
    "I mainly like to make the occasional small purchase to support the game because I like it so much" This always cracks me up. You purchase something to get something. If you were truly being altruistic, you'd give money for nothing in return.
    No, I am happy with the game as a free to play game.  I make small purchases during sales and such (usually no mare than maybe the $5 one) when I am happy with the game as this is one of the few games of this type where I truly don't feel punished for not having everything.  Even when I've made my biggest purchase, one of the bundles for around 20 something $ (I honestly forget the details of it as it was some time ago) I never felt like it really pushed me forward much.
    The most astounding part is that you flat out state "I truly don't feel punished for not having everything"  If thats even remotely true why do you care about dilution?

    you might think it hinders your progress or ability to play,  but sheer number of player testimonials is saying that they have no issues getting 5* covers regardless of how "dilute" the 4* tier is.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    bluewolf said:
    n25philly said:
    Dogface said:
    "I mainly like to make the occasional small purchase to support the game because I like it so much" This always cracks me up. You purchase something to get something. If you were truly being altruistic, you'd give money for nothing in return.
    No, I am happy with the game as a free to play game.  I make small purchases during sales and such (usually no mare than maybe the $5 one) when I am happy with the game as this is one of the few games of this type where I truly don't feel punished for not having everything.  Even when I've made my biggest purchase, one of the bundles for around 20 something $ (I honestly forget the details of it as it was some time ago) I never felt like it really pushed me forward much.
    Part of my point of my thread I started (that this discussion spun off from) is that dilution and the huge number of characters means even spending on a bundle is going to have a very small impact on your overall roster and play.  Ex:  Last December I decided to buy the Carnage bundle for whatever that cost.  It gave like 6-9 covers and got him over 320 which meant an extra Doc Ock cover a few days later.  It was fun and I wanted the HP so I did it, but none of those covers - even as concentrated as they were - ultimately make much difference in vast sea of characters I have.
    This is exactly why I don't think that dude is all that original or extraordinary in his story.  He spent quite a bit on H4H bundles against prevailing wisdom and he STILL got 3 5* champs before he called it done.


    Everyone wants to "spin" dilution into some negative narrative.  Okay,  what are the actual examples of players of people who can't compete or participated because they were diluted out?  because when I asked what their final result placement in events that they can participate:  It usually boils down to "pretty similar to other events or at worst, finished 1 reward tier less.

    In contrast,  I see plenty of day 300-500 rosters with a very different roster focuses and smattering of 5-10 cover 5*.  How exactly are those Year 1 players suffering from dilution?

    At the end of the day.  Does it matter that person A only has Cylops champed and person B has Blade champed?  I really don't see either player crippled  with respect to their ability to compete.

    There are plenty of discussion of players chasing specific covers for specific chars.  (i myself chased Black panther 3* black cover for over a year before I champed my BP.  Bit that had no real effect on my scoring or placements in pvp or pve.


  • Brigby
    Brigby ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 7,757 Site Admin
    *I can sense this conversation starting to get rather heated, so just a friendly reminder to please keep all comments civil. Thank you!
  • Zalasta
    Zalasta Posts: 285 Mover and Shaker
    For the people spending gobs of money on this mobile game, I'd love to know their age, what they do for a living (how much they make), and what they've got stashed away for retirement that they're spending this kind of coin on a mobile game.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    Zalasta said:
    For the people spending gobs of money on this mobile game, I'd love to know their age, what they do for a living (how much they make), and what they've got stashed away for retirement that they're spending this kind of coin on a mobile game.
    LOL.  I've spent $1000 over 
     5 years or $200 bucks a year on avg.

    you keep talking about this as if mobile makes a difference.  Let me assure you,  if I wasn't playing the game on an iPad, I most likely would be playing a different game on either a couch or on a pc.

    Its still all interchangeable electronic time wasting.
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,822 Chairperson of the Boards
    I will fully acknowledge that the dilution of the 4 tier does not stop anyone from saving up pulls and choosing to enter the 5 tier without coming anywhere close to finishing the 4 tier.

    And being competitive for PVE placement is of course possible if the other people around you are in the same boat, struggling to complete 4's and using half-covered essentials. And being competitive in this game is a combination of roster and willingness/devotion to the schedule, which waxes and wanes in any player.  So your roster does not 100% dictate where you will end up.

    But I will argue that my personal experience:

    Starting the game 4 years ago, I was able to move through each tier and (almost) complete all the tier (champed) before starting to champ the next one up.  This means I (almost, within a few characters) finished the 2's, the 3's, then the 4's before champing my first 5.

    THAT experience is now either impossible or would require someone languishing in the 4 tier for an incredibly long time at this point.  You would very likely finish the 2 and 3 tier and experience all those characters, but many parts of the 4 tier will be untouched by newer players.

    So maybe that experience is permanently gone, and maybe that's OK, and doesn't matter, and of course you can enjoy the game without being a completionist.

    It still makes me sad to think about all the work and time being spent on new characters that so many players will just be forced to ignore by necessity, or, of course, prefer to ignore once they have better tools to use.
  • n25philly
    n25philly Posts: 426 Mover and Shaker
    Phumade said:
    n25philly said:
    Dogface said:
    "I mainly like to make the occasional small purchase to support the game because I like it so much" This always cracks me up. You purchase something to get something. If you were truly being altruistic, you'd give money for nothing in return.
    No, I am happy with the game as a free to play game.  I make small purchases during sales and such (usually no mare than maybe the $5 one) when I am happy with the game as this is one of the few games of this type where I truly don't feel punished for not having everything.  Even when I've made my biggest purchase, one of the bundles for around 20 something $ (I honestly forget the details of it as it was some time ago) I never felt like it really pushed me forward much.
    The most astounding part is that you flat out state "I truly don't feel punished for not having everything"  If thats even remotely true why do you care about dilution?

    you might think it hinders your progress or ability to play,  but sheer number of player testimonials is saying that they have no issues getting 5* covers regardless of how "dilute" the 4* tier is.
    Because the game doesn't punish you.  Tell me, do you have to have a team of fully covered 5* to win matches in this game?  I play another game where if you don't have the absolute best you are pretty much guaranteed to lose no matter what mode you go in.  Other than maybe bosses and shield training, where are you held back by not having anything?

    Once again, I'm not in the 5* tier and I don't want to be in the 5* tier.  So yeah, 4* dilution does matter to me.  I do know it's hard for people in the forums to comprehend anythingn that doesn't have to do with 5*'s but believe or not, not everyone is there


    Also, just because I don't feel the need to have everything right now doesn't mean I don't want to progress.  I don't need to have everything tomorrow, but when months go by and I'm in the exact same place, or they keep pushing new characters and I can barely get more than 2-3 covers because it's near impossible to get them it gets frustrating.  If I didn't enjoy the game for what it was and the actual game and not progress, then I would have quit probably 500+ days ago.
  • n25philly
    n25philly Posts: 426 Mover and Shaker
    Phumade said:
    n25philly said:
    Phumade said:
    n25philly said:
    Maybe the experience is different in a buy club where you are getting all kinds of bonuses, but every time I've spent money it feels like I get a small tick forward and i ended up feeling like kind of wasted it.  I mainly like to make the occasional small purchase to support the game because I like it so much.


    Let me rephrase this since you want to make this an emotional argument vs a real dollars vs hours spent.

    What do you think the appropriate pricing for 800 hrs of entertainment should be?  or let state it more bluntly.  What does progress mean in a game like MPQ?  Possessions in the electronic context are pointless, its not like I get to take my roster when I leave.  Once you leave this game, your roster is worthless.  So at the end, the only meaningful measure is how much money did you spend to waste those hours (win a match or got sniped you still got a rush/excitement).  and trust me compared to other activities $500 dollars for 800 hours of real time use is a very very reasonable proposition.

    Your fallacy which a lot of people make is trying to measure progress against other players and compare your spend/effort to their accomplishments.  

    but who cares about that in the long run?  at the end day for my time and money  MPQ is still the cheapest form of entertainment by a country mile does it really matter how I place or who I play for?


    I personally play this game because I enjoy it.  Not everyone plays to be at the top.  Hell, I didn't even champ my first 4* until right before day 1000.  I hope with every legendary pull that I don't pull 5*'s.  I guess I didn't get entertained because I didn't do it your way.  Dilution is a real a major problem in this game and trust me there are way, way more people that are going to get frustrated and leave then there are ones that are going to throw $500-800 on it.
    LOL 
    please you do you and enjoy the game how you want.  but please don't assume that random arbitrary players can't achieve 39 5* covers in 360 game days with 2hrs per day and  moderate spending (Sub $1 per hour of play) and don't make blanket statements on what is and isn't theoretically possible, cause the roadmap was laid out pretty explicitly.

    I said the exact same numbers, but hopefully in a more positively easily digestible fashion.  Please note 3 examples of random people who have less than 360 game days have all given their testimonials as to their placements, dollar spend and current rosters states.  So you should really put your feeling in the perspective of actual players going through that day 360 exp.

    If you don't think you can achieve those metrics.  please say that YOU can't get it done, not that the AVG player can't get it done.  because nothing those players have said pointed to an unfair or unlevel playing field.


    and speaking of dilution.  How did Dilution slow any of those players from 3 5* champs?  Near as i can tell all three players indicate that they can sustain their current level of performance on a 3 to 4 month basis.  I don't see how dilution affected their ability to compete beyond essentials and loaners.

    I play plenty of events with a weak 144 loaner and plenty with a maxduped 479.  my placements and scores really don't change in a meaningful way.
    Wow, you remind me of someone I knew on here that got himself banned for his attitude.  I have to ask are you even reading my posts when you respond to them?  Where did I say you can't get whatever by throwing money at it?  My point through the whole is that you can't expect everyone to do that.  That is all.  You seem offended that I do not play the way you do.

    Seriously this entire post seems to be angry and directed at something I never even said.  Like the other person it's kind of funny to read.  It's like you are just trying to pick a fight.
  • crackninja
    crackninja Posts: 444 Mover and Shaker
    Just wanted to point out that the average player will likely never champ a single 4*, especially now with the state of dilution.  The average person has a shot at champing a 5* within a year with dedicated play, but that is by no means the progress of the average player.
    The examples of people that have done it did not include extraordinary measures, but they did require a lot of time invested, again, well beyond what the average player spends playing this game.

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