Time, Effort, and Value Spent in MPQ

13»

Comments

  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    crackninja said:
    Just wanted to point out that the average player will likely never champ a single 4*, especially now with the state of dilution.  The average person has a shot at champing a 5* within a year with dedicated play, but that is by no means the progress of the average player.
    The examples of people that have done it did not include extraordinary measures, but they did require a lot of time invested, again, well beyond what the average player spends playing this game.
    And what exactly do you think an avg play devotes to this game?  I just said 800 hrs spread out over 360days.  Thats just a little north of 2hrs a day.

    What do you feel an avg player actually devotes to this game or should we just make up the numbers in our mind?

    If you think the avg player only does 60 m a day, let me recast that player profile  to 720 game days at 1 hr a day.  

    or 1400 day player who devotes 30m a day.

    This is my exact point.  You cannot claim an avg player profile unless your prepared to discuss engagement time/ dollar spend etc.

    I mean seriously is an Avg only doing 30m a day? that won't even get the mega whales through both grinds.

  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    n25philly said:
    Phumade said:
    n25philly said:
    Phumade said:
    n25philly said:
    Maybe the experience is different in a buy club where you are getting all kinds of bonuses, but every time I've spent money it feels like I get a small tick forward and i ended up feeling like kind of wasted it.  I mainly like to make the occasional small purchase to support the game because I like it so much.


    Let me rephrase this since you want to make this an emotional argument vs a real dollars vs hours spent.

    What do you think the appropriate pricing for 800 hrs of entertainment should be?  or let state it more bluntly.  What does progress mean in a game like MPQ?  Possessions in the electronic context are pointless, its not like I get to take my roster when I leave.  Once you leave this game, your roster is worthless.  So at the end, the only meaningful measure is how much money did you spend to waste those hours (win a match or got sniped you still got a rush/excitement).  and trust me compared to other activities $500 dollars for 800 hours of real time use is a very very reasonable proposition.

    Your fallacy which a lot of people make is trying to measure progress against other players and compare your spend/effort to their accomplishments.  

    but who cares about that in the long run?  at the end day for my time and money  MPQ is still the cheapest form of entertainment by a country mile does it really matter how I place or who I play for?


    I personally play this game because I enjoy it.  Not everyone plays to be at the top.  Hell, I didn't even champ my first 4* until right before day 1000.  I hope with every legendary pull that I don't pull 5*'s.  I guess I didn't get entertained because I didn't do it your way.  Dilution is a real a major problem in this game and trust me there are way, way more people that are going to get frustrated and leave then there are ones that are going to throw $500-800 on it.
    LOL 
    please you do you and enjoy the game how you want.  but please don't assume that random arbitrary players can't achieve 39 5* covers in 360 game days with 2hrs per day and  moderate spending (Sub $1 per hour of play) and don't make blanket statements on what is and isn't theoretically possible, cause the roadmap was laid out pretty explicitly.

    I said the exact same numbers, but hopefully in a more positively easily digestible fashion.  Please note 3 examples of random people who have less than 360 game days have all given their testimonials as to their placements, dollar spend and current rosters states.  So you should really put your feeling in the perspective of actual players going through that day 360 exp.

    If you don't think you can achieve those metrics.  please say that YOU can't get it done, not that the AVG player can't get it done.  because nothing those players have said pointed to an unfair or unlevel playing field.


    and speaking of dilution.  How did Dilution slow any of those players from 3 5* champs?  Near as i can tell all three players indicate that they can sustain their current level of performance on a 3 to 4 month basis.  I don't see how dilution affected their ability to compete beyond essentials and loaners.

    I play plenty of events with a weak 144 loaner and plenty with a maxduped 479.  my placements and scores really don't change in a meaningful way.
    Wow, you remind me of someone I knew on here that got himself banned for his attitude.  I have to ask are you even reading my posts when you respond to them?  Where did I say you can't get whatever by throwing money at it?  My point through the whole is that you can't expect everyone to do that.  That is all.  You seem offended that I do not play the way you do.

    Seriously this entire post seems to be angry and directed at something I never even said.  Like the other person it's kind of funny to read.  It's like you are just trying to pick a fight.
    No I read all of the posts and I'm tying to help the avg reader distinguish between

    1 jaded players view of how day 360 players progress vs.

    actual testimonials from players in that journey.


    Please feel free to enjoy or progress the game however you want to play it.  but don't project your feelings on a a neutral population that is achieving theirs goals INSPITE of what you are complaining about.

    You are an experienced player with LINE experience.  I just think its wrong for someone with your experience to paint a picture that is counter  factual to what those other players have stated.

    I'm not arguing this as a whale.  I'm saying as a day 360 player,  I would have no issues compiling 39 5* covers, and that your statements only reflect your playstyle pref.  As Bluewolf said,  vet experience has no bearing or meaning as to what a fresh account can accomplish in 360 days.  Let their ACTUAL results speak for themselves.

  • thedarkphoenix
    thedarkphoenix Posts: 557 Critical Contributor
    I've been play 4 year if not 5...I've literally lost count. Do t know if 5 is possible. But a long long time.


    I still dont have a 4 champed.

    And I'm a ways from.

    But it's also feels pointless.


    Maybe champing 4 should be more of a reward to 5 lands or just a reward for progression.

    Imo its pointless for me to champ most 4 outside of it's just something to do with the covers.

    If champing 4s netted you like a 5 star, some cp and iso man I'd be hype to champ as many 4s as possible.

    There is a ton of potential still left with the game, but it feels like d3 is currently at a "if it's not broke" state of mind
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,456 Chairperson of the Boards
    One of the other issues with the 5* acquisition rate is that once you get one by sub-optimal means, and it turns out NOT to be a Kitty, Okoye, or similar, you actually DO get punished for advancing in the game. I'm a day 1155 player, i have a single non-meta 5* champion that took me a year to get (GRRR - left latest with 8 covers, and through various means over the subsequent year I got the rest). I'm working on my second one by grinding a 4* feeder to max-champ (just 58 more covers to go...).

    I've been F2P the whole time. I pull as I go, as I'm certain most players do, which i find entertaining. I Jumped past the 3* tier to 4*s after I had a usable crew, then went back and rostered them all behind, so my roster is shaped a little strangely for someone playing as long as I've been.

    I pulled from classic to maximize my value getting 4*s and older 5*s, so now I have everyone who isn't Hela on roster, almost all 4*s are fully covered save a few vintage characters missing 1 cover and then newer ones like Bishop etc that need a few. When Kingpin hit latest, I switched to spending completely into latest to see if my progression only PVE/900 pvp playstyle would let me cover 5s as they came out. the jury is still out, but I earn roughly 2 pulls/day. I got cable to 10 covers, Kingpin is at 10, doom is at 5, Danver5 is at 3. I've pulled down enough 5*s per batch in latest that shows it's possible with some luck to do it the way I play, with a roster shaped like mine is. 

    I'm not really sure what I'm chiming in to say specifically, save that right now, to get through 4* dilution, it seems to me you're better off pulling out of classic until you have most characters  covered, or at least enough good ones to play, THEN start hoarding for the future in my opinion. You need to work those bonus heroes for sure. So much of the ability to earn rewards is about node access, so you definitely need a complete roster to earn enough resources to play well.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    ThaRoadWarrior said:

    So much of the ability to earn rewards is about node access, so you definitely need a complete roster to earn enough resources to play well.
    Far be it from me to argue with anyone's actual testimonial,  but it changes to whole complexion of the post when its pointed out.  Your using "complete roster" to infer champed status.  But It should be pointed out to the avg reader, that actually you can play the node with 1 cover.

    There are big difference in intent and connotation when you suggest people need a champed complete roster vs 1 cover to play the node for points.  and I'm pretty sure the avg noob reader won't pickup that distinction.

    I'll leave for all the other experts to determine the break even points for when a roster/player should advance to the next tier or heck even the next SCL difficulty.
  • crackninja
    crackninja Posts: 444 Mover and Shaker
    Phumade said:

    And what exactly do you think an avg play devotes to this game?  I just said 800 hrs spread out over 360days.  Thats just a little north of 2hrs a day.

    What do you feel an avg player actually devotes to this game or should we just make up the numbers in our mind?

    If you think the avg player only does 60 m a day, let me recast that player profile  to 720 game days at 1 hr a day.  

    or 1400 day player who devotes 30m a day.

    This is my exact point.  You cannot claim an avg player profile unless your prepared to discuss engagement time/ dollar spend etc.

    I mean seriously is an Avg only doing 30m a day? that won't even get the mega whales through both grinds.

    I would guess the average player plays 20 minutes a day.  I made that up in my mind at your request, but it's my honest guess.

    Time spent and rewards are not linear.  Some rewards are front loaded, and many are backloaded.

    Time spent isn't even equally valuable for different players for many reasons, so trying to build a simple model to set expectations isn't terribly useful.

    As far as spending goes, from what I have seen (and this could be totally off, as I'm just one person), extremely casual players still spend regularly.  I suspect they may actually spend more than most dedicated grinders who just don't see the value in spending.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,456 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phumade said:
    ThaRoadWarrior said:

    So much of the ability to earn rewards is about node access, so you definitely need a complete roster to earn enough resources to play well.
    Far be it from me to argue with anyone's actual testimonial,  but it changes to whole complexion of the post when its pointed out.  Your using "complete roster" to infer champed status.  But It should be pointed out to the avg reader, that actually you can play the node with 1 cover
    I’m not really implying champ status. But there are nuances to how one does well at this game (and by this game, I’m meaning both the core mechanic of gem matching level to level as well as the meta game of roster building through resource acquisition) that are bigger than just having 1 cover. Which if you’ve been playing anything like as long as you say, I’m sure you are already aware and are just being argumentative. But for your straw man “average reader,” I’ll elaborate.

    you need at least one cover to access the node. If you are playing at a high SCL in story, which you should be if you want to maximize your resource acquisition potential, you need better than that. You need a character that can at worst survive the node, if not at best actually help you. Nothing in the game is as easy to get on purpose, when you want it, as a specific 3* character. Bonus heroes at that tier are highly reliable. 4* characters are much harder to get on purpose, but not impossible. 4* play is very attainable, and meta 4*s can be chased in a matter of weeks or perhaps months if you need one to counter some otherwise challenging meta. 3* characters play up really well. The 4* transition definitely snowballs after your first one if you spend as you go and get covers frequently. This is not the case when you transition to 5* play. A low covered 5* is a liability on required nodes-even with other champions, winning at all is not a guaranteed proposition at SCL9. So yes, 1 cover let’s you attempt the node, but it does not mean you will succeed. Champing “the wrong 5*” can actually make things very hard for you in PVP. The delta between the good ones, okay ones, and bad ones is wild. That it can take a human year, 1/80th of a person’s actual lifespan to grow another one, is crazy. Yet here we all are.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    I’m not really implying champ status. But there are nuances to how one does well at this game (and by this game, I’m meaning both the core mechanic of gem matching level to level as well as the meta game of roster building through resource acquisition) that are bigger than just having 1 cover. Which if you’ve been playing anything like as long as you say, I’m sure you are already aware and are just being argumentative. But for your straw man “average reader,” I’ll elaborate.

    you need at least one cover to access the node. If you are playing at a high SCL in story, which you should be if you want to maximize your resource acquisition potential, you need better than that. You need a character that can at worst survive the node, if not at best actually help you. Nothing in the game is as easy to get on purpose, when you want it, as a specific 3* character. Bonus heroes at that tier are highly reliable. 4* characters are much harder to get on purpose, but not impossible. 4* play is very attainable, and meta 4*s can be chased in a matter of weeks or perhaps months if you need one to counter some otherwise challenging meta. 3* characters play up really well. The 4* transition definitely snowballs after your first one if you spend as you go and get covers frequently. This is not the case when you transition to 5* play. A low covered 5* is a liability on required nodes-even with other champions, winning at all is not a guaranteed proposition at SCL9. So yes, 1 cover let’s you attempt the node, but it does not mean you will succeed. Champing “the wrong 5*” can actually make things very hard for you in PVP. The delta between the good ones, okay ones, and bad ones is wild. That it can take a human year, 1/80th of a person’s actual lifespan to grow another one, is crazy. Yet here we all are.
    Lets break this argument logically. Since we are discussing PVE.  I'm more than happy to admit,  If I don't have the 5e I drop to the lowest scl I can play.  The scl are easily structured so you can drop a level if you don't meet eligibility and completely dominate the next lower tier.  So any player can drop one lower tier and reasonably expect the same level of success even with a WEAK loaner.  Believe me I see it in every new char eve.  I just add 5 min to an grind where I have to include a loaner.

    Honestly, your scenario is predicated on playing against elite tier mega whales (and that's the real fallacy).  Thats not who those day 300 players compete against.  You can be 100% accurate in your reporting and still be 100% wrong as it pertains to how new players advance.

    As a practical matter you can have a one cover version of every essential for the event (1 2*, 1 3*, 1 4*, 1 5*) and as a day 360 player with the brain of 1500 day player,  I would probably be in scl5 running a 270 Fistbuster 4/3* combo to T20 placement in any scl 5/6/7.  and before you complain about the diminished resources (does it really matter if the 5* christening happens on day 360 or day 420 or even day 500)?  All that really matters is how does those days played translate into total in game time.

    In fact I would still argues with a high degree of certainty that if I played Venom Bomb tomorrow in scl9 with just loaner in the essentials,  my clear time would only suffer from 30m to 45/50min tops.

    I would love to hear a testimonial of a scl 5 player report back with how good was the 5th  place roster in their event.  I'm pretty sure it will look remarkably similar to all those other day 360 players who log 2hrs ever day.

    Why would you ever suggest a day 360 player with 20-30 4* baby champs ever play in scl9 against the Level 500 leviathans?  Thats like setting them up to fail on purpose.   While you might have had to play at the highest scl to advance.  New rosters have it infinitely easier compared to what the forum considers a Vet, and god forbid how much harder the game was when there was a real ISO draught (i.e. before Shield ranks).  

    Is it really that incredible that a new account player can accumulate the volume of covers need to champ 3 5* in 800hrs of work?  Maybe that was a jaw dropping achievement in year one,  but in year 5 the road to a 5* champ is not that long.

    If I was really arguing this from the whale P.O.V.  we be talking about how to champ a 5* inside of 2 weeks to take advantage of the players who can't leverage their CP hoards to champ BEFORE the rest of the grubby masses can buy into that char. (I.e. leverage the god tier boost for all 4 weeks not just the last 2 weeks where mere mortals can buy out a 5*. 



  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,456 Chairperson of the Boards
    While we’re breaking arguments down, it seems like you keep leaning on the experiences of 1500 Day players who start over and are basically doing New Game +. You’d have to try pretty hard to convince me those are the same “average day 360 players” you also continue to reference. 
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    crackninja said:
    Phumade said:

    And what exactly do you think an avg play devotes to this game?  I just said 800 hrs spread out over 360days.  Thats just a little north of 2hrs a day.

    What do you feel an avg player actually devotes to this game or should we just make up the numbers in our mind?

    If you think the avg player only does 60 m a day, let me recast that player profile  to 720 game days at 1 hr a day.  

    or 1400 day player who devotes 30m a day.

    This is my exact point.  You cannot claim an avg player profile unless your prepared to discuss engagement time/ dollar spend etc.

    I mean seriously is an Avg only doing 30m a day? that won't even get the mega whales through both grinds.

    I would guess the average player plays 20 minutes a day.  I made that up in my mind at your request, but it's my honest guess.

    Time spent and rewards are not linear.  Some rewards are front loaded, and many are backloaded.

    Time spent isn't even equally valuable for different players for many reasons, so trying to build a simple model to set expectations isn't terribly useful.

    As far as spending goes, from what I have seen (and this could be totally off, as I'm just one person), extremely casual players still spend regularly.  I suspect they may actually spend more than most dedicated grinders who just don't see the value in spending.
    Anyway you did say 20m a day.  So lets keep the math consistent and use 30 for simplicity.

    30m a day means 180hrs logged.  So yes, if AVG means 30m a day, then those players like (that dude, kain and able, the dark knight)  represent players with exceptional disciple and gaming will power.  I don't even know how to characterize the level 500 rosters.   maybe we call them Beyonder whales?  I'm more than happy to award them titles if that's the definition of special.

    and while I would absolutely agree that Time spent is not equally valued for all players.  I would CATAGORICALLY say.

    If you log 100 hrs into game.  You should expect similar results to any other player who logs 100 hrs with a similar size roster.  So YES you can absolutely say,  if you plays X hours and do these  things with your roster, then yes,  an 800 hr player can accumulate 3 5* pretty comfortably.

  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited April 2019
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    While we’re breaking arguments down, it seems like you keep leaning on the experiences of 1500 Day players who start over and are basically doing New Game +. You’d have to try pretty hard to convince me those are the same “average day 360 players” you also continue to reference. 
    I think I could do it in 300 TBH.  

    edit: Let me clear here.  I wouldn't have wasted any money on H4H, and I would have leveraged the heck out bracket sniping to leverage the best results for the least amount of effort.  I pretty confident  I would ride t20 placements in every scl I competed  for at least 100 of those 360 days.

    Yeah,  I'm pretty sure I could get 3 5* champs much faster based on a 1500 brain vs their 900 day brain.
  • abenness
    abenness Posts: 228 Tile Toppler
    edited April 2019
    So much good debate going on here :)

    The area where average time played per day breaks down is pve progression rewards. 
    With a 3* champ roster, I could reliably finish scl7 top50 playing slowly-optimally (ie initial and final grind), but it took ~1 hour per grind. But, the daily top50 sub reward included precious 100HP, and I would get the 4* progression cover, and the full CP progression reward, and 2 or 3 x 3* covers for event placement.

    Anyone playing only 20-30 minutes per day would miss most all of that. Their time might be better spent doing DDQ for a 3* cover, and a bit of pve for the first 3* cover there. So I would say that 30 minutes builds a 3* roster, but 2 hours builds a 4* roster.

    Having usable 4* toons makes this faster (eg Ghost, Vulture).

    Getting and levelling Kitty put me within reach of placement in scl7, then 8, then 9, and from there 4* placement covers move things faster.

    To get to 5* toons, you need LL tokens and CP, which come from 3* and 4* champ levels, and full pve progression.

    Missing full progression would slow you down more dramatically than has been indicated above.
  • abenness
    abenness Posts: 228 Tile Toppler
    MoonKnight said:
    @abenness she is actually 5/1/3. So the black is fine, but still a bad distribution for champing. I have been EXTREMELY lucky in the classics pulling her. I pulled 45 times from a mini hoard in the one store to rule them all (Thor/Okoye/kitty) and all I got was one Okoye red. But other than that, from classics and the small time she was in latests. 

    I think iso is the biggest issue for me now for hoarding. Trying to get 4* to 209 and getting the recently released 4* to 209 takes a ton of iso, and it doesn’t seem like even with a lot of play I’m going fast enough at the moment. I also don’t want to test MMR with one champed 5* with Kitty floating around. All I’ll see is Gritty with a champed 5* instead of 330ish. 
    I think you are missing out. It would be worthwhile posting separately to gather opinions on what she would be like levelled, or look through rosters until you find one at 390, and copy down the data of her powers at your distribution. You have less healing, but still the big offensive boost.

    I’ve seen many comments recommending Okoye as a single 5* in pvp just because she can work with numerous 4* toons and take advantage of whoever else you have who is boosted for the week. She’s my 5* bonus hero now and I’m jealous of your distribution :)

    I had Kitty levelled and then champed, but my few 4* champs are all babies, and I am consistently matched against champed + boosted 4* in pvp, who I can manage without bad luck. I just skip the other Gritty teams, and consider my options for the other single-5*-champs.

    I hear you on the 209, it is a tough decision for me whether to spend iso on 209’ing or champing if I don’t have a top-tier 4* ready to go. Too often I’m let down on shield training by having at least one under-covered anyway.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    Who can keep up with the dizzying intellect of this master debater? I’m over it.
    LOL, 
     I do have a graduate degree, so listening to bad considered counter factual scenarios is par for the course.

    LOL
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,283 Chairperson of the Boards
    I'm not really interested in getting involved with the what is an average player debate but think it is worth considering the following that a new player might have for and against this game since I started:

    For

    Saved covers - this is simply a game dealer breaker for any transitioned player, the dark old days were just bad with cover scrambling
    Bonus heroes - 3* level amazing, everywhere else is still a leg up
    Shield Ranks - Free Iso
    Shield Clearance Levels - You can pretty much control your progress by matching level to roster, unlike the bad old days
    Hfh: You can flat out buy covers for HP
    Ddq: You get 2cp when before you got none
    5* feeders - not a major for lower levels but as you go up - hey D3 can I have a Cable feeder please?
    Bundles to buy: These are probably a nice leg up.

    So new players do have a pretty tasty level of advancement help compared to when I started (2016 properly).

    Against

    Dilution .

    This really is the main thing and I am so amazed it has come full circle to where we are again. We can talk about extra clears etc but a new player knows nothing if that.

    I don't really support Phumade and I don't think I could match his expected performance as a new player (I have no 5* champs with Cable nearest), in fact I can't match his expectations as a "vet" but now is probably not actually the worst time to be an MPQ player starting out..
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    DAZ0273 said:
    Against

    Dilution .

    This really is the main thing and I am so amazed it has come full circle to where we are again. We can talk about extra clears etc but a new player knows nothing if that.

    I'll just say this simply. Dilution is only bad if you think from the perspective of having ever char blah blah. But it has no affect on your ability to play and compete in any tier beyond mandatory essentials. 1 cover vs 13 cover champ is meaningless in the context of escalating champion levels. Any one single loaner can be surrounded by high level 3*/4* champs that cover any weakness thourgh scl7. And because placement is SELF selected through Shield ranks (You can always drop to a winning easier scl, and its been discussed before whats the best tradeoff between placement, SCL and progression for any one roster state. TL/DR: I could care less about the pace of new release. The chars really don't make a difference in placement or are relatively easy to plan around. They are just personal play trophies
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,283 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phumade said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    Against

    Dilution .

    This really is the main thing and I am so amazed it has come full circle to where we are again. We can talk about extra clears etc but a new player knows nothing if that.

    I'll just say this simply. Dilution is only bad if you think from the perspective of having ever char blah blah. But it has no affect on your ability to play and compete in any tier beyond mandatory essentials. 1 cover vs 13 cover champ is meaningless in the context of escalating champion levels. Any one single loaner can be surrounded by high level 3*/4* champs that cover any weakness thourgh scl7. And because placement is SELF selected through Shield ranks (You can always drop to a winning easier scl, and its been discussed before whats the best tradeoff between placement, SCL and progression for any one roster state. TL/DR: I could care less about the pace of new release. The chars really don't make a difference in placement or are relatively easy to plan around. They are just personal play trophies
    You are correct. I think the only hole in your whole philosophy is that the Devs definitely believe this is a "You must have every character/ gotta catch em'all" mentality that can translate to the player base and that is a massive distraction. Shield Training and Essentials being the things that stand out...they can be some clickbait for somebody who never read the original mission statement (if that even applies now). Beyond that and with the levels of money referred to in this thread then a new player can expect to progress at faster speeds than ever before. Certainly faster than a 2016 player for example could have.

Categories