Time, Effort, and Value Spent in MPQ

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System
System Posts: 1,025 Chairperson of the Boards
in MPQ General Discussion
This discussion was created from comments split from: We're Living in a State of Dilution.
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  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,477 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Vhailorx said:


    Can't imagine how daunting the 4* transition would be for a brand new player right now. Would love to hear from some in that position if they are here on the boards.
    What do you mean by daunting?  Some dude made a whole thread about his noob journey. I forget the dude but gist was got 3 5* champs in 360 days on a budget of $500. (and he played it somewhat picky on his 5* stars, got a complete 3* tier and 1/2 of his 4* were champed as I recall?)

    Seems pretty achievable no matter what you thought of his skill or knowledge level.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,477 Chairperson of the Boards
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    n25philly said:
    Phumade said:
    Vhailorx said:


    Can't imagine how daunting the 4* transition would be for a brand new player right now. Would love to hear from some in that position if they are here on the boards.
    What do you mean by daunting?  Some dude made a whole thread about his noob journey. I forget the dude but gist was got 3 5* champs in 360 days on a budget of $500. (and he played it somewhat picky on his 5* stars, got a complete 3* tier and 1/2 of his 4* were champed as I recall?)

    Seems pretty achievable no matter what you thought of his skill or knowledge level.
    Only $500 lol.  How many full games can you buy for that?
    Honestly 10 50hr AA games.  or around 500 hrs of AAA gameplay.  In that dudes 360 day journey.  how many hours of quality game play did he spend?  probably about 700-800hrs over the life of his account.

    His net spend isn't that outrageous by any means.
  • firethorne
    firethorne Posts: 1,505 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Phumade said:
    n25philly said:
    Phumade said:
    Vhailorx said:


    Can't imagine how daunting the 4* transition would be for a brand new player right now. Would love to hear from some in that position if they are here on the boards.
    What do you mean by daunting?  Some dude made a whole thread about his noob journey. I forget the dude but gist was got 3 5* champs in 360 days on a budget of $500. (and he played it somewhat picky on his 5* stars, got a complete 3* tier and 1/2 of his 4* were champed as I recall?)

    Seems pretty achievable no matter what you thought of his skill or knowledge level.
    Only $500 lol.  How many full games can you buy for that?
    Honestly 10 50hr AA games.  or around 500 hrs of AAA gameplay.  In that dudes 360 day journey.  how many hours of quality game play did he spend?  probably about 700-800hrs over the life of his account.

    His net spend isn't that outrageous by any means.
    Um... seems a bit outrageous.  I mean, you're comparing hundreds of hours playing the same mobile game to dozens of titles.  I mean, if this is a debate about expense and hours, you could easily focus a smaller number or even a single AAA game with large online and/or replay components.  Or even a AA budget game.  Heck, I've put hundreds of hours into the original Guild Wars, and spent way less than $500.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,477 Chairperson of the Boards
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    firethorne said:
    Phumade said:
    n25philly said:
    Phumade said:
    Vhailorx said:


    Can't imagine how daunting the 4* transition would be for a brand new player right now. Would love to hear from some in that position if they are here on the boards.
    What do you mean by daunting?  Some dude made a whole thread about his noob journey. I forget the dude but gist was got 3 5* champs in 360 days on a budget of $500. (and he played it somewhat picky on his 5* stars, got a complete 3* tier and 1/2 of his 4* were champed as I recall?)

    Seems pretty achievable no matter what you thought of his skill or knowledge level.
    Only $500 lol.  How many full games can you buy for that?
    Honestly 10 50hr AA games.  or around 500 hrs of AAA gameplay.  In that dudes 360 day journey.  how many hours of quality game play did he spend?  probably about 700-800hrs over the life of his account.

    His net spend isn't that outrageous by any means.
    I've put hundreds of hours into the original Guild Wars, and spent way less than $500.
    This is not typical by any stretch, while we can all poin to games we there are pennies for hours entertainment.  Most game consumers don’t blink an eye at getting a $60 AAA game each month, every month. Which is what ten months of AAA?

    on a dollars / hours basis he got an insanely good avg comapered to the other kid who buys 1 AAA title a month for a year.  500/800 is what 60cents an hour for entertainment?  And let’s be honest here he didn’t have to buy huh bundles and better que management  could have gotten him to complete ftp status.

    your conflating your own personal value on game time vs considering what most avg consumers spend.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,477 Chairperson of the Boards
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    n25philly said:
    Phumade said:
    Honestly 10 50hr AA games.  or around 500 hrs of AAA gameplay.  In that dudes 360 day journey.  how many hours of quality game play did he spend?  probably about 700-800hrs over the life of his account.

    His net spend isn't that outrageous by any means.
    So this game isn't a quality experience without spending $500?  Nothing against people that want to spend that, but it shouldn't be put out there like that is normal or expected.
    LoL  I have long learned in life that if you want to ensure a consistent and quality experience then you have to pay for it in some sort of dollars per hour ratio.

    Even the old way of thinking pay once use for ever was wrong, because I can assure you even then the manufacturer didn't make, price or sell their product under the assumption you could use it forever.  Whether you realize it or not there is a dollars / hour lifespan implicit in every product.  Unless your pumping $$$ into this game and have less than 100hrs totals, your really just quibbling about the fractional dollar differences over the lifetime of a 360day/700hr  player.

    While people are always free to complain about monetization.  In the big picture perspective,  mpg isn't expensive compared to other games, and forms of entertainment (Even when you factor in their monetization).
  • n25philly
    n25philly Posts: 426 Mover and Shaker
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    Phumade said:
    n25philly said:
    Phumade said:
    Honestly 10 50hr AA games.  or around 500 hrs of AAA gameplay.  In that dudes 360 day journey.  how many hours of quality game play did he spend?  probably about 700-800hrs over the life of his account.

    His net spend isn't that outrageous by any means.
    So this game isn't a quality experience without spending $500?  Nothing against people that want to spend that, but it shouldn't be put out there like that is normal or expected.
    LoL  I have long learned in life that if you want to ensure a consistent and quality experience then you have to pay for it in some sort of dollars per hour ratio.

    Even the old way of thinking pay once use for ever was wrong, because I can assure you even then the manufacturer didn't make, price or sell their product under the assumption you could use it forever.  Whether you realize it or not there is a dollars / hour lifespan implicit in every product.  Unless your pumping $$$ into this game and have less than 100hrs totals, your really just quibbling about the fractional dollar differences over the lifetime of a 360day/700hr  player.

    While people are always free to complain about monetization.  In the big picture perspective,  mpg isn't expensive compared to other games, and forms of entertainment (Even when you factor in their monetization).
    You are either missing the point or not even trying to get it.  I'm not say there is anything wrong with spending your way through, I'm saying that you should act like it is required or expected.  Today is day 1433 for me and I have played every day straight without missing a single one and enjoying almost every bit of it.  I've spent money on it.  Maybe the experience is different in a buy club where you are getting all kinds of bonuses, but every time I've spent money it feels like I get a small tick forward and i ended up feeling like kind of wasted it.  I mainly like to make the occasional small purchase to support the game because I like it so much.

    The dilution and the state of the game because of it is a mess.  If it's going to become spend or go nowhere then I might just quit.  I enjoy the game because I enjoy the game.  I couldn't possibly care less about 5*'s or anything like that.  I just want to progress, even if it's slow.  Right now if feels like a long road to nowhere.  They need to make their money and I appreciate that, but there is a fine line on what is reasonable and right now it feels like the game is on the wrong side and only getting worse.  But hey maybe there will be enough whales around when all the other vets go away.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,477 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Vhailorx said:
    Phumade,

    Your arguments are getting increasingly absurd.

    Your "achievable" example is one experienced player who

    (1) restarted the game with the benefit of knowing optimal strategies for roster building;

    (2) in 2017 when the 4* tier was much smaller and the latest 12 were easier to collect;

    (3) spent at least $500; and

    (4) ground hard for 360 days.

    That does not seem like a typical experience.

    Additionally, I personally think that investing 800 hours and $500 over 1 year in a single game should get me more than 1/2 of the penultimate tier of play and ~10% of the endgame tier.  I personally think that is an outrageous amount of time/money to ask from the playerbase of any game.  I suspect I am not alone.





    Let me get down to the nitty gritty.

    1.  So he started a fresh account with a working understanding of roster mgt.  I don't think that's an unreasonable ask.  its not as if our default advice has been all that extraordinary, hard to implement or execute.  All we ever say is don't open tokens until you have the slots to roster the result.  Basically he played semi conservatively and asked advice on when to spend his resources.

    2.  according to his diary didn't reach the 4* phase until relatively late probably after 200 days or 1/2 through his diary.  Don't make it sound he used some weird alliance gift to accelerate his reward progress..  He got from 0 to 3 5* champs in under 360 days without using massive buy clubs or being in a T10 alliance.  The size of the 4* tier had no real impact on his ability to progress and play increasingly hard     scl (I didn't pay attention to all his results but he seemed to be t10 as he kept going up scls) etcs etc..  In fact he even stated in his diary that he's only what 50% champed through 4* tier and easily got 3 5* champs.

    3.  $500 dollars is a lot when its spent in one sitting.  but his net spend is measured in the hundreds of hours.  not hundred of mins.  Let me put this another way.  $500 over 1 year is less than most peoples daily starbucks order over the same timeframe.  Would you feel like his $500 spend was better if he had played 8000  hrs or 5 years of play?

    4.  "Ground Hard" for 360 days means he played for exactly 360 days.  Nothing more nothing less. Honestly Does that stat even matter?  What if he did his 360 days over 2 calendar years?  I even said for his 360 days he probably played 700-800 hrs.  Do you think that number is materially higher or lower?

    Unless you think he was lying about his diary,  he sounds like the avg gamer who played the same game for 10 months at 90min a day instead of a different game every month for 90min a day.

    Its still the same $ spent either way.  Maybe the more astounding part of his performance was that he regularly reported his results, asked for feedback and then implemented based on that feedback.

    but I didn't think his journal was all that extraordinary or unique.

    In fact your argument sounds more like your more outraged that he played the game for 800hrs. than the fact that he spent $500 on a single game.

    and really why is 1/2 the 4* and 10% of the 5* tier considered bad?  If you look at most game achievements that would be a fairly typical stat for a player that finishes the game.  When I beat Castlevania the normal wayI don't feel all that compelled to then have to beat the upside down castle as well.
  • Dogface
    Dogface Posts: 977 Critical Contributor
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    "I mainly like to make the occasional small purchase to support the game because I like it so much" This always cracks me up. You purchase something to get something. If you were truly being altruistic, you'd give money for nothing in return.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,477 Chairperson of the Boards
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    FesterTester said:


    I would wager this is NOT the typical experience of a player trying to enter the 4-star tier, or an average new player, and that most players are not willing to engage in that level of spending plus optimal play in PVE and PVP to get there.  If you are, good for you.


    Lol  Optimal Play is not the same thing as Optimal Roster Management.  Under Optimal play,  people need to do specific matches at specific times to get specific results.  Getting 1200 points or placement is an example of Optimal play improving your result.

    Optimal Roster Management just means he didn't open tokens until he gets the slots or iso to roster and advance the char.  He didn't have to make matches blind folded/behind his back etc.  It took no physical skill or talent for him to improve his roster management other than waiting until he had open slots to open his tokens and listening to feedback on which chars to prioritize.

    But honestly the level of spending is somewhat irrelevant.  If he got 3 5* champs in 360 days with $800 dollars,  I can assure you he would have still gotten 3 5* champs in 1080 days with $0 dollars spent.


  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,477 Chairperson of the Boards
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    n25philly said:
    Maybe the experience is different in a buy club where you are getting all kinds of bonuses, but every time I've spent money it feels like I get a small tick forward and i ended up feeling like kind of wasted it.  I mainly like to make the occasional small purchase to support the game because I like it so much.


    Let me rephrase this since you want to make this an emotional argument vs a real dollars vs hours spent.

    What do you think the appropriate pricing for 800 hrs of entertainment should be?  or let state it more bluntly.  What does progress mean in a game like MPQ?  Possessions in the electronic context are pointless, its not like I get to take my roster when I leave.  Once you leave this game, your roster is worthless.  So at the end, the only meaningful measure is how much money did you spend to waste those hours (win a match or got sniped you still got a rush/excitement).  and trust me compared to other activities $500 dollars for 800 hours of real time use is a very very reasonable proposition.

    Your fallacy which a lot of people make is trying to measure progress against other players and compare your spend/effort to their accomplishments.  

    but who cares about that in the long run?  at the end day for my time and money  MPQ is still the cheapest form of entertainment by a country mile does it really matter how I place or who I play for?
  • abenness
    abenness Posts: 228 Tile Toppler
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    I started from scratch and am currently on day 325.  7 x 4* champs, and champed Kitty (who I focused every single one of my pulls on).  I've spent $300 Australian dollars (which buy a lot less that US$ in-game).  I've followed @bbigler closely as my experiences were similar to his, but I am in for the long haul, so have stopped at single-5* level for the foreseeable future.

    Most of my spend was hero points to roster the covers I had "earned" through play, and I'm comfortable with that.  Now that I'm past the HP crunch, I'm down to the minimum spend per month.

    I would be very interested to see my accumulated time spent in game, as it's a minimum of 2 hours per day for me.

    The enjoyment for me is much more than the gameplay and collecting itself, it is the community and the competitive aspect of playing optimally for PVP progression and PVE placement.  It is being promoted to commander in my alliance and recruiting new members to succeed at those events. It's reading and contributing to the boards, which is the first time I have done more than lurk in 25 years of internet usage (yep, since the start of the world wide web).

    This is a hobby, and an addiction, but I'm still enjoying the ride.
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
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    n25philly said:
    Phumade said:
    n25philly said:
    Phumade said:
    Honestly 10 50hr AA games.  or around 500 hrs of AAA gameplay.  In that dudes 360 day journey.  how many hours of quality game play did he spend?  probably about 700-800hrs over the life of his account.

    His net spend isn't that outrageous by any means.
    So this game isn't a quality experience without spending $500?  Nothing against people that want to spend that, but it shouldn't be put out there like that is normal or expected.
    LoL  I have long learned in life that if you want to ensure a consistent and quality experience then you have to pay for it in some sort of dollars per hour ratio.

    Even the old way of thinking pay once use for ever was wrong, because I can assure you even then the manufacturer didn't make, price or sell their product under the assumption you could use it forever.  Whether you realize it or not there is a dollars / hour lifespan implicit in every product.  Unless your pumping $$$ into this game and have less than 100hrs totals, your really just quibbling about the fractional dollar differences over the lifetime of a 360day/700hr  player.

    While people are always free to complain about monetization.  In the big picture perspective,  mpg isn't expensive compared to other games, and forms of entertainment (Even when you factor in their monetization).
    You are either missing the point or not even trying to get it.  I'm not say there is anything wrong with spending your way through, I'm saying that you should act like it is required or expected.  Today is day 1433 for me and I have played every day straight without missing a single one and enjoying almost every bit of it.  I've spent money on it.  Maybe the experience is different in a buy club where you are getting all kinds of bonuses, but every time I've spent money it feels like I get a small tick forward and i ended up feeling like kind of wasted it.  I mainly like to make the occasional small purchase to support the game because I like it so much.

    The dilution and the state of the game because of it is a mess.  If it's going to become spend or go nowhere then I might just quit.  I enjoy the game because I enjoy the game.  I couldn't possibly care less about 5*'s or anything like that.  I just want to progress, even if it's slow.  Right now if feels like a long road to nowhere.  They need to make their money and I appreciate that, but there is a fine line on what is reasonable and right now it feels like the game is on the wrong side and only getting worse.  But hey maybe there will be enough whales around when all the other vets go away.
    He doesn't seem to want to get it.  his whole premise, and argument in this thread, is *one* person, with prior knowledge of game play and expendable income, was able to make it to the 5* tier in a year.  

    Well, guess what that person did next?  Quit.  Not exactly the shining beacon of what the devs want (i imagine).  
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,477 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Why Spudgutter said:
    n25philly said:
    Phumade said:
    n25philly said:
    Phumade said:
    Honestly 10 50hr AA games.  or around 500 hrs of AAA gameplay.  In that dudes 360 day journey.  how many hours of quality game play did he spend?  probably about 700-800hrs over the life of his account.

    His net spend isn't that outrageous by any means.
    So this game isn't a quality experience without spending $500?  Nothing against people that want to spend that, but it shouldn't be put out there like that is normal or expected.
    LoL  I have long learned in life that if you want to ensure a consistent and quality experience then you have to pay for it in some sort of dollars per hour ratio.

    Even the old way of thinking pay once use for ever was wrong, because I can assure you even then the manufacturer didn't make, price or sell their product under the assumption you could use it forever.  Whether you realize it or not there is a dollars / hour lifespan implicit in every product.  Unless your pumping $$$ into this game and have less than 100hrs totals, your really just quibbling about the fractional dollar differences over the lifetime of a 360day/700hr  player.

    While people are always free to complain about monetization.  In the big picture perspective,  mpg isn't expensive compared to other games, and forms of entertainment (Even when you factor in their monetization).
    You are either missing the point or not even trying to get it.  I'm not say there is anything wrong with spending your way through, I'm saying that you should act like it is required or expected.  Today is day 1433 for me and I have played every day straight without missing a single one and enjoying almost every bit of it.  I've spent money on it.  Maybe the experience is different in a buy club where you are getting all kinds of bonuses, but every time I've spent money it feels like I get a small tick forward and i ended up feeling like kind of wasted it.  I mainly like to make the occasional small purchase to support the game because I like it so much.

    The dilution and the state of the game because of it is a mess.  If it's going to become spend or go nowhere then I might just quit.  I enjoy the game because I enjoy the game.  I couldn't possibly care less about 5*'s or anything like that.  I just want to progress, even if it's slow.  Right now if feels like a long road to nowhere.  They need to make their money and I appreciate that, but there is a fine line on what is reasonable and right now it feels like the game is on the wrong side and only getting worse.  But hey maybe there will be enough whales around when all the other vets go away.
    He doesn't seem to want to get it.  his whole premise, and argument in this thread, is *one* person, with prior knowledge of game play and expendable income, was able to make it to the 5* tier in a year.  

    Well, guess what that person did next?  Quit.  Not exactly the shining beacon of what the devs want (i imagine).  
    Why are you refereeing to one person?  another dude right above you said he had a similar defacto experience.  Do you think they are the same dude ghosting each others experience?  How many actual examples does it take for it to be reasonable achievable by the normal human?  Its not like they utilized any exploits to advance their roster.  I don't recall any rumors saying they took advantage of any of the myriad of bugs that have existed in this game.  In fact for the most part, those players don't take part in high level bake/sniper rooms. and have only recently actually started using line battle chats.

    So I would NOT characterize their success as being LINE based.

    As far as I can tell, their accounts are accurate statements as to their hours or dollars spent, and probably represents a very realistic expectation.

    I have zero doubts in my mind, that if I looked at actual server logs vs dollars spent.  360 days of 2hrs (or 720 hrs) is pretty standard before a moderately ftp player to have a 3 viable 5* champs that are going to remain viable for the medium term future.

    Again its the same roster advice that has been spouted ad nausea.

    Don't open tokens unless you can roster those results.
  • MoonKnight
    MoonKnight Posts: 63 Match Maker
    edited April 2019
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    Since it was asked, I am a brand new starting player at day 310. I have 9 champed 4* (about 9 at 209) , one 5* at 9 covers (Okoye) and no others more than 5. I do however have most of the 5* tier covered. I played in a random alliance for the first 6 months of game time, then joined a T100 alliance once I had garnered an okay roster. I did patrol these forums for a while learning lessons, but did not start optimally or have a plan until the 4th month.

     I am nowhere near a 5* champ, with a hoard of 512 CP and 52 LL pulls. I have nowhere near the iso saved up to transition either—both of those things are still many months of hoarding away from a jump. The transition from 2* to 3* was relatively painless, but 3* to 4* was honestly fun but draining. I have spent around the $800 mentioned within a BC setting to get my roster up to snuff so I wasn’t losing progress. Without that I would be grinding and feeling like i was getting diminishing returns. If I didn’t have the means I do spending wise, I probably would have quit from frustration. Even with that, it will be months of hard work to get to a useable 5* champ team to transition out. That is very daunting to me. 

    Based on my experience, Biglers timeframe is unrealistic for an average player—even one like myself who got into the forums and did some research on my own. 
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,477 Chairperson of the Boards
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    MoonKnight said:
    Since it was asked, I am a brand new starting player at day 310. I have 9 champed 4* (about 9 at 209) , one 5* at 9 covers (Okoye) and no others more than 5. I do however have most of the 5* tier covered. I played in a random alliance for the first 6 months of game time, then joined a T100 alliance once I had garnered an okay roster. I did patrol these forums for a while learning lessons, but did not start optimally or have a plan until the 4th month.

     I am nowhere near a 5* champ, with a hoard of 512 CP and 52 LL pulls. I have nowhere near the iso saved up to transition either—both of those things are still many months of hoarding away from a jump. The transition from 2* to 3* was relatively painless, but 3* to 4* was honestly fun but draining. I have spent around the $800 mentioned within a BC setting to get my roster up to snuff so I wasn’t losing progress. Without that I would be grinding and feeling like i was getting diminishing returns. If I didn’t have the means I do spending wise, I probably would have quit from frustration. Even with that, it will be months of hard work to get to a useable 5* champ team to transition out. That is very daunting to me. 

    Based on my experience, Biglers timeframe is unrealistic for an average player—even one like myself who got into the forums and did some research on my own. 
    So add up all your 5* covers.  I have a sneaking suspicion that number is north of 39.  which is the absolute minum you need for 3 5* champs.  Your existing 5* tier should give you a rough estimate of how many champs you should have if you had concentrated your 5* unhoarding (or had used optimal roster management).  

    Let me restate the actual numbers so that it doesn't blow everyone's mind.

    The first dude achieved 39 5* covers in 360 days.  I've now seen 2 additional posters tell me that they have between 20-30 covers in 300 days of play.  So its not an issue about the rate that covers get awarded.  All he did was wait until he saw meta level chars and spent cp hard for them.

    So based on 3 different people sharing their experiences, How exactly is achieving 39 5* covers in 360 days or 720 hours or $500 unusual or absurd?

    Maybe the shocking insight is that its better to concentrate your purchasing power in one go,  but multiple people have now confirmed they are getting significant numbers of 5* covers in 300 days more or less.  Honestly,  when he broke his hoard, his rate was more or less 15%.  Its not like he had some weird bug that kept popping out Okoyes and kitty.


    Look at the actual results that people are generating and not what they are complaining about.
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Phumade, without CS coverswaps, it will almost certainly take more than 39 covers to get 3x 5* champs.

    Additionally, you act as if 3x 5* champs is the ultimate goal.  But it's only 10% of the 5* tier. 

    "Why is that a problem? you say.  Because it's not 10% and growing up to 100.  It's 10% and that's it.  Wait for another 6-12 months to get 3 more and forget about those classics.

    Mpq is a game about roster building.  And you are taking the position that it's totally reasonable for 2 hours a day every day for 300+ days, plus $500-800 spent PLUS some RNG will likely get you 10% of the endgame tier, and about 1/2 of the penultimate tier (and it would actually be a bit less than that for a player who started today because dilution is worse now).

    That's just an absurd position. as is your argument that it is a peerless value. 

    For less money and less time spent in Warframe you grind up to MR 20 and buy all the prime gear you might want with platinum.  The only way to even spend that much money on destiny is to buy massive amounts of silver and brute force every cosmetic item in the game (and 800 hours played in destiny in a year would put you in the global top 10-20% for that game).

    Yes, <$1 an hour for entertainment is nominally good value.  But every hour of "entertainment" is not created equal; some are more entertaining than others. Much of the time spent in mpq is endless grinding of trivial nodes, or fight yet another dark avengers nodes to 6/6?  and I haven't event mentioned the 'schedule your life around it' nature of optimal play in pve and PvP.

    In both relative and absolute terms, I don't know concede that $500 for 800 hours of mpq is "good" value.


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