Blue needs a nerf.

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  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Just Dropped In
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    You can nerf cards as you wish but i can promise you that will:
    1) increase the amount of wasted time spent in game. 
    2) everything will feel "meh" and boring like the severe lack of chase cards in RNA.  

    If your going nerf things but keep the grind the same then peace out to this game. Im having trouble as it is keeping up. And i am playing 50-75% less than before.. it still feels like a grind! I went from playing every single event and getting full perfect scores to playing less than progression and playing non coalition events here and there. The plus side is i have a significantly better quality of life!

    But i am getting irked by the wasted minutes on loading times, wasted minutes on constructing decks while switching between screenshots and the app because we dont have deck slots, wasted minutes seeing objectives checked off, wasted minutes watching my player level xp and card xp, animations.. (need i say more?), and now you want me to sit through longer games with super boring "nerfed" stuff and as you guessed - more wasted minutes. Thanks guys. 

    Depite all this, objectively, i do agree BSZ probably needs a nerf; but, seriously.. is that the most important thing right now? Nerf a card so that players who want to win faster (save time) or win more (feeling of overpoweredness "high") can suffer? So remove the positive emotions associated with this, replace them with negative emotions because some people are losing a few games every once in a while? Because we wanted to balance a game that has so many more pressing problems to be resolved? 

    I just dont feel the benefit associated with this change is worth it at this point, especially with such a mundane set that RNA is. Maybe after some other changes, yeah go to town. 

    -Buffs before nerfs.
    -Convenience issues (deck slots, visual aid) before buffs/nerfs. 
    -Card bugs before convenience issues.
    -Program bugs before Card bugs.

    **you can add and rearrange a few of those as you please but feel like thats the ladder.
  • wickedwitch74
    wickedwitch74 Posts: 267 Mover and Shaker
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    Since crafting has allowed players to target the cards they want, and complete sets faster, the super rarity of these MPs has been made moot, and the broken cards are encountered in the wild a lot more than the MPs we saw pre-crafting.

    Looking at these two Ravnica sets, and the Masterpieces that they've introduced, I think the designers recognize the serious unbalancing of the two biggest MP offenders (BSZ and Omnipotence). 

    Once rotation occurs (Fall), the power-level of playable MPs will drop significantly. Nobody's worried about Mizzium Transreliquat, etc...

    BSZ gets relegated to Legacy, which is already a horror show, and the degenerate decks lose their linchpin. 

    So, to me, it appears that they have addressed the issue by toning down the power level of the most recent MPs. This will probably be the new normal for sets going forward. We just need to grin and bear it through the summer.
  • OmegaLolrus
    OmegaLolrus Posts: 253 Mover and Shaker
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    Mark_Tedin said:
    blue has always been a stronger color in mtg ... since the beginning of the game ...

    Imagem relacionada

    and in MTGPQ this could not be different... the timer was the biggest NERF in the game history so far ...all my decks were damaged... we do not need more NERF ... 


    On top of that, I think (correct me if I'm wrong) we're advocating bring Blue in line with the power of the other colors, and then take out the timer.

    The timer is a Band-Aid on a broken bone. It'll help sometimes, but most of the time, it'll be ineffective

  • Brakkis
    Brakkis Posts: 777 Critical Contributor
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    wickedwitch74 said:
    Once rotation occurs (Fall)

    Rotation doesn't happen then. It occurs when the 9th set enters.

    1. XLN 
    2. RIX 
    3. DOM
    4. M19
    5. GRN
    6. RNA
    7. WAR
    8. -Unknown-
    9. -Unknown- (Rotation happens here - XLN, RIX, DOM, and M19 leave)
    War of the Spark comes out May 3rd. Most sets in paper are 3 to 5 months apart. So the set after that will hit sometime between August and October. That puts the 9th set, when rotation will occur, sometime between November and March of 2020.

    Then push each of those dates back between 1 to 2 months for it to be brought to PQ.

    None of the broken stuff in standard is leaving standard until next spring.

    jimpark said:

    You can nerf cards as you wish but i can promise you that will:
    1) increase the amount of wasted time spent in game. 
    2) everything will feel "meh" and boring like the severe lack of chase cards in RNA.  

    If your going nerf things but keep the grind the same then peace out to this game.

    Not nerfing an overpowered card purely so people can play through matches at a faster rate is the dumbest argument against nerfs there is.

    jimpark said:

    -Buffs before nerfs.
    -Convenience issues (deck slots, visual aid) before buffs/nerfs. 
    -Card bugs before convenience issues.
    -Program bugs before Card bugs.

    **you can add and rearrange a few of those as you please but feel like thats the ladder.

    It's also quite asinine to never ask for changes to things that need to be changed until after other things you feel are higher priority get changed. We all have our tiers of changes that should be made. Just because you want the thing at tier 1 to be fixed, doesn't mean you can't bring up the thing at tier 6 as well.
  • OmegaLolrus
    OmegaLolrus Posts: 253 Mover and Shaker
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    Brakkis said:
    wickedwitch74 said:
    Once rotation occurs (Fall)

    Rotation doesn't happen then. It occurs when the 9th set enters.

    1. XLN 
    2. RIX 
    3. DOM
    4. M19
    5. GRN
    6. RNA
    7. WAR
    8. -Unknown-
    9. -Unknown- (Rotation happens here - XLN, RIX, DOM, and M19 leave)
    War of the Spark comes out May 3rd. Most sets in paper are 3 to 5 months apart. So the set after that will hit sometime between August and October. That puts the 9th set, when rotation will occur, sometime between November and March of 2020.

    Just as a random aside, #8 is going to be Core 2020.

    Still no idea on 9, obviously.

  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
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    OmegaLolrus said:
    Brakkis said:
    wickedwitch74 said:
    Once rotation occurs (Fall)

    Rotation doesn't happen then. It occurs when the 9th set enters.

    1. XLN 
    2. RIX 
    3. DOM
    4. M19
    5. GRN
    6. RNA
    7. WAR
    8. -Unknown-
    9. -Unknown- (Rotation happens here - XLN, RIX, DOM, and M19 leave)
    War of the Spark comes out May 3rd. Most sets in paper are 3 to 5 months apart. So the set after that will hit sometime between August and October. That puts the 9th set, when rotation will occur, sometime between November and March of 2020.

    Just as a random aside, #8 is going to be Core 2020.

    Still no idea on 9, obviously.

    Rumor has it there is a Norse-themed set coming out in the near future with Snow stuff coming back.  No idea if it's that one or not (and we won't know until the summer), but here's hoping
  • Stormcrow
    Stormcrow Posts: 462 Mover and Shaker
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    Brakkis said:

    No. You literally remove its ability to target the player.
    ....
    Then, buff reds already existing burn spells. A lot.
    In this scenario, what player would ever use your nerfed Beacon Bolt, for anything, ever?
  • OmegaLolrus
    OmegaLolrus Posts: 253 Mover and Shaker
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    starfall said:
    https://whatsinstandard.com has the following to say:
    Exiting Standard Q4 2019 

    Do we obey the same rules that paper magic does? I mean, I'd prefer it, it'd make more sense... But I haven't been playing long enough to see it roll around.
  • Brakkis
    Brakkis Posts: 777 Critical Contributor
    edited March 2019
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    Stormcrow said:

    Brakkis said:

    No. You literally remove its ability to target the player.
    ....
    Then, buff reds already existing burn spells. A lot.
    In this scenario, what player would ever use your nerfed Beacon Bolt, for anything, ever?

    The same ones that use it in paper. It's damage grows based on spells in the graveyard (also counts exile in paper). Not all spells are direct damage, especially in blue. It would function as it is meant to, an excellent source of direct creature damage.

    You're also forgetting that it is U/R. It can be run outside of a red deck. Giving say, U/W, access to a good source of direct creature damage.

    OmegaLolrus said:
    Just as a random aside, #8 is going to be Core 2020.

    Still no idea on 9, obviously.

    Oh, right. Core. Thanks for the reminder.

    starfall said:
    https://whatsinstandard.com has the following to say:
    Exiting Standard Q4 2019 

    If we follow this, which isn't even aware of the next set after Core, or it's release date so it's an assumption, Q4 goes right up until the end of the year. Which places the 9th set somewhere between November and December. Then it has to come to PQ. They took nearly 2 months to bring RNA over (about a week short). Let's be generous and give them a month. Still not looking at a PQ standard rotation until 2020.
  • Stormcrow
    Stormcrow Posts: 462 Mover and Shaker
    edited March 2019
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    You're missing the point: all blue/red walkers would have access to the buffed red spells for direct creature damage. That accounts for most of the Beacon Bolt decks in the wild. And all blue walkers would still have access to blue bounce. If Beacon Bolt were purely for creature control there are already better options out there, and if you buffed red spells there'd be even more better options out there. You'd nerf it into just being yet another uncommon nobody ever uses.
  • Brakkis
    Brakkis Posts: 777 Critical Contributor
    edited March 2019
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    Stormcrow said:
    You're missing the point: all blue/red walkers would have access to the buffed red spells for direct creature damage. That accounts for most of the Beacon Bolt decks in the wild. And all blue walkers would still have access to blue bounce. If Beacon Bolt were purely for creature control there are already better options out there, and if you buffed red spells there'd be even more better options out there. You'd nerf it into just being yet another uncommon nobody ever uses.

    Bounce is not always the best option, or even the preferred one. Especially when facing opponents who's creatures have impactful ETB effects. In that case, removing them rather than bouncing them back for easy returns is the primary goal.

    And once again, the argument of not nerfing something because it's super effective and everyone is using it, is not a valid reason to not nerf it. It's an uncommon direct damage spell that is currently better than any mythic direct damage spell in the game. If it gets "nerfed" to what it was designed for in the first place, then so be it. It's an uncommon. It shouldn't make mythic and rare burn spells look like jokes.
  • OmegaLolrus
    OmegaLolrus Posts: 253 Mover and Shaker
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    starfall said:
    Beacon Bolt might get enough of a nerf simply from BSZ getting nerfed. 

    People hate nerfs, so the nerf hammer should only target the absolutely extreme cases of brokenness on the first pass, and I don't think BB is in that bracket.


    It seems like BB only becomes a huge issue when combined with BSZ firing off a couple times.

    Without BSZ, in my experience (since I don't have BSZ), it can take most of the game to get it up to doing enough damage to seriously worry a Planeswalker.

  • Stormcrow
    Stormcrow Posts: 462 Mover and Shaker
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    Brakkis said:
    And once again, the argument of not nerfing something because it's super effective and everyone is using it, is not a valid reason to not nerf it. It's an uncommon direct damage spell that is currently better than any mythic direct damage spell in the game. If it gets "nerfed" to what it was designed for in the first place, then so be it. It's an uncommon. It shouldn't make mythic and rare burn spells look like jokes.
    "We need to nerf it because it's too strong for an uncommon" is a completely different argument than "we need to nerf it because it breaks the color pie". Counterpoint: instead of nerfing the only successful burn-deck archetype (and yes, Beacon Bolt is only especially good in decks designed to maximize it) this game has ever had into nonexistence, why not just bump the card up to mythic status. Problem solved!
  • Brakkis
    Brakkis Posts: 777 Critical Contributor
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    Stormcrow said:
    Brakkis said:
    And once again, the argument of not nerfing something because it's super effective and everyone is using it, is not a valid reason to not nerf it. It's an uncommon direct damage spell that is currently better than any mythic direct damage spell in the game. If it gets "nerfed" to what it was designed for in the first place, then so be it. It's an uncommon. It shouldn't make mythic and rare burn spells look like jokes.
    "We need to nerf it because it's too strong for an uncommon" is a completely different argument than "we need to nerf it because it breaks the color pie". Counterpoint: instead of nerfing the only successful burn-deck archetype (and yes, Beacon Bolt is only especially good in decks designed to maximize it) this game has ever had into nonexistence, why not just bump the card up to mythic status. Problem solved!

    I concede that that would make sense in justifying it's current capabilities.

    Also, Beacon Bolt can get just as high outside of BSZ. Run it with Underrealm Lich and Surveil cards.
  • Stormcrow
    Stormcrow Posts: 462 Mover and Shaker
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    Brakkis said:

    Also, Beacon Bolt can get just as high outside of BSZ. Run it with Underrealm Lich and Surveil cards.
    You're still building a deck designed to maximize its capabilities. (I honestly find the Underrealm Lich version of the deck to be the most fun, I run it with Crackling Drake and Isareth, it's a hoot.) Beacon Bolt with no effort made to stuff your graveyard is pretty meh; by the time it gets up to big numbers through just normal play the game should be long since over, even against one of those 500-hp PvE bosses.

    My feeling, generally, is that if a card would be fine if it was a higher rarity, then the card's fine, since rarity is mostly nonsense and has more to do with the economics of the game than actual balance, anyhow. I am certainly in favor of buffing the higher-rarity burn spells in the game (and even the not-so-high-rarity ones), but you can do that without making Beacon Bolt a useless card.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Just Dropped In
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    Brakkis said:
    wickedwitch74 said:
    Once rotation occurs (Fall)

    Rotation doesn't happen then. It occurs when the 9th set enters.

    1. XLN 
    2. RIX 
    3. DOM
    4. M19
    5. GRN
    6. RNA
    7. WAR
    8. -Unknown-
    9. -Unknown- (Rotation happens here - XLN, RIX, DOM, and M19 leave)
    War of the Spark comes out May 3rd. Most sets in paper are 3 to 5 months apart. So the set after that will hit sometime between August and October. That puts the 9th set, when rotation will occur, sometime between November and March of 2020.

    Then push each of those dates back between 1 to 2 months for it to be brought to PQ.

    None of the broken stuff in standard is leaving standard until next spring.

    jimpark said:

    You can nerf cards as you wish but i can promise you that will:
    1) increase the amount of wasted time spent in game. 
    2) everything will feel "meh" and boring like the severe lack of chase cards in RNA.  

    If your going nerf things but keep the grind the same then peace out to this game.

    Not nerfing an overpowered card purely so people can play through matches at a faster rate is the dumbest argument against nerfs there is.

    jimpark said:

    -Buffs before nerfs.
    -Convenience issues (deck slots, visual aid) before buffs/nerfs. 
    -Card bugs before convenience issues.
    -Program bugs before Card bugs.

    **you can add and rearrange a few of those as you please but feel like thats the ladder.

    It's also quite asinine to never ask for changes to things that need to be changed until after other things you feel are higher priority get changed. We all have our tiers of changes that should be made. Just because you want the thing at tier 1 to be fixed, doesn't mean you can't bring up the thing at tier 6 as well.
    I was merely voicing my thoughts, though they are clearly unwanted here it seems.. I dont think you need to be impolite about the issue. I wasnt trying to be impolite and i wasnt suggesting a nerf shouldnt happen. However, to suggest that my seeking means to reduce time in game on grindy things such that i can spend more time on more creative, enjoyable aspects is a bit rude. Why is my seeking faster games so wrong? 

    Like you mentioned everyone's priorities are different. At the moment, I just felt there were more pressing issues than a bsz nerf. And time is an important and huge priority for me. Otherwise, its fine to bring up these issues. 

    As for the grind, i would personally prefer less of that in any way possible - whether it be ways to deal with high hp bosses/increasingly more hp'ed pws, lowered boss health, less overall games to play, rewards balances that matches average time invested, or other changes to reduce time that gets uselessly eaten up (most notably animations and loading). Side note, a grind doesnt necessarily mean less games but i guess more time-efficient. 

    And, i didnt specify at the time but i put that list there in that order because i did feel in general that was a decent priority list. Additionally, changes to some of the higher priority issues could affect things lower on the list, which could be good or bad and would re-determine the priority of lower items. 

    By no means did i suggest that is a list set in stone. However, upon rereading my post, it did definitely suggest that "why are you guys talking about this now? We have more important things to address" tone - which i apologize; wasnt my intent. 
  • OmegaLolrus
    OmegaLolrus Posts: 253 Mover and Shaker
    edited March 2019
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    Brakkis said:
    Stormcrow said:
    Brakkis said:
    And once again, the argument of not nerfing something because it's super effective and everyone is using it, is not a valid reason to not nerf it. It's an uncommon direct damage spell that is currently better than any mythic direct damage spell in the game. If it gets "nerfed" to what it was designed for in the first place, then so be it. It's an uncommon. It shouldn't make mythic and rare burn spells look like jokes.
    "We need to nerf it because it's too strong for an uncommon" is a completely different argument than "we need to nerf it because it breaks the color pie". Counterpoint: instead of nerfing the only successful burn-deck archetype (and yes, Beacon Bolt is only especially good in decks designed to maximize it) this game has ever had into nonexistence, why not just bump the card up to mythic status. Problem solved!

    I concede that that would make sense in justifying it's current capabilities.

    Also, Beacon Bolt can get just as high outside of BSZ. Run it with Underrealm Lich and Surveil cards.


    Even without building a deck around it (besides just an Izzet deck with Ral), I've gotten it up to 50+ in some of the boss fights. That's without BSZ and whatever. Usually, whatever deck I'm running it with won't power it enough to kill my opponent until my creatures and other spells have already done a lot of damage to the AI.

    I don't think a spell that you can't use at that effectiveness (30+ damage in one shot) until turn 9+ is necessarily an issue (it might be, though). It's when you pop off 30+ damage on turn two because BSZ has filled and emptied your hand a few times that it's a huge problem.

    That said, I 10,000% agree with your original statement, that popularity is not a good reason not to nerf something. Of course it's popular, you always win with it.

    Beacon Bolt may need a nerf, but I think we need to see what the game looks like after BSZ gets nerfed down before making an informed decision.

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