Blue needs a nerf.

Gilesclone

Cards that give you cards and mana are always problematic.  They really need to stop making cards that do “fetch x cards, reduce their cost to 0”

TomB

Gilesclone said:

Cards that give you cards and mana are always problematic.  They really need to stop making cards that do “fetch x cards, reduce their cost to 0”

And stuffing them behind the "Mythic" wall of unobtainability doesn't seem to be keeping them from dominating...

Gunmix25

Mark_Tedin said:

blue has always been a stronger color in mtg ... since the beginning of the game ...



and in MTGPQ this could not be different... the timer was the biggest NERF in the game history so far ...all my decks were damaged... we do not need more NERF ... 

Curious, How were your decks damaged by the timer? 

I've only two builds that the timer triggers on.  A trostani build which uses path to discovery which triggers the timer every time. And a BSZ recycling build.  Are you not in a good position after the timer triggers? If so,  that's not the fault of the timer,  but deck design. The timer is so far out that I'm in a solid position p/t wise that I not remotely worried about Greg taking a turn when the timer triggers.

So far path to discovery has all been nerfed via timer to be almost pointless to use. I haven't ran into any other supports that burn up time yet like PtD does. I'm about to try H2 this morning and see if the timer rendered her useless. 

 But as far as builds go. Only ones with path to discovery are affected by the timer and I now need to redesign them to exclude that card.  The rest of my decks are aggressive and have not triggered the timer. 

I will say that I've not seen Greg trigger the timer ever.  

ManiiNames

Lannery eats time like crazy, so do other buffers like the wizards that do things when you cast spells.  I hit the timer on those wizards pretty regularly.  

andrewvanmarle

Brakkis said:

jimpark said:

-Buffs before nerfs.
-Convenience issues (deck slots, visual aid) before buffs/nerfs. 
-Card bugs before convenience issues.
-Program bugs before Card bugs.

**you can add and rearrange a few of those as you please but feel like thats the ladder.

It's also quite asinine to never ask for changes to things that need to be changed until after other things you feel are higher priority get changed. We all have our tiers of changes that should be made. Just because you want the thing at tier 1 to be fixed, doesn't mean you can't bring up the thing at tier 6 as well.

Not if that means that the tier 1 things get ignored because tge tier 6 thing is easier to implement. 

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Laeuftbeidir

starfall said:

I don't know about y'all, but I've won a hell of a lot of games in this TDW with Naru Meha.

What, do you want to say Adeliz can add some hundred power on one turn because something is slightly out of balance? Don't you love your big blue "instawin" button?

arNero

I am reinforcing my opinion that BSZ MUST be nerfed after getting gutted with an OTK earlier today. That card is stupidly overpowered. -_-

(in case you're wondering, BSZ feeds to Stitch feeds to Expansion feeds to Bacon feeds to extra swap for BSZ again, repeat ad nauseam. I was at full health, by the way.)

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Brakkis

starfall said:

If you're one of the players who thinks it's OK that BSZ exists, then I ask this question to you:

Why not give the other colors something that powerful?

[Deleted User]

Brakkis said:

starfall said:

If you're one of the players who thinks it's OK that BSZ exists, then I ask this question to you:

Why not give the other colors something that powerful?

I have to admit this was quite funny

Tengu316

starfall said:

If you're one of the players who thinks it's OK that BSZ exists, then I ask this question to you:

Why not give the other colors something that powerful?

Where's the OTHER zeniths?! Every color should have had one just as powerful, period! But, nope. Didn't happen. And that doesn't fill me with a lot of confidence that, going forward, any fix will be worth a mite.

jtwood

starfall said:

If you're one of the players who thinks it's OK that BSZ exists, then I ask this question to you:

Why not give the other colors something that powerful?

I think BSZ is way OP (in what world is it okay that 16 mana becomes 72 mana???), but it's not truly broken without these copy spells that fill up both its regular mana and its stored mana. I've used Explosion to copy Electrodominance, which is a different type of stupid, since it can cascade the mana along.

So maybe there need to be a couple adjustments: one, that decreases how much BSZ passes along to other cards, and another that prevents cards like Explosion from filling stored mana.

All that said, I'm glad I get to party with BSZ right now. It makes the game way faster.

Stormcrow

I would be totally fine with a rules change that makes it so "giving a card full mana" just fills the base casting cost and doesn't give anything towards stored mana. Feels like that would end a lot of different loops.

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OmegaLolrus

starfall said:

Stormcrow said:

I would be totally fine with a rules change that makes it so "giving a card full mana" just fills the base casting cost and doesn't give anything towards stored mana. Feels like that would end a lot of different loops.

I would really, really hate to see another rules change being made to nerf a problem card instead of the problem card itself being nerfed.

That's a prime way you get app bloat, which we are drowning in right now.

Agreed. For a game to be successful, the rules need to be as transparent as possible. That's why I like that they allowed copies to be cast the turn they were created again (although it does create other problems, that's not the way to fix 'em).

Tremayne

starfall said:

If you're one of the players who thinks it's OK that BSZ exists, then I ask this question to you:

Why not give the other colors something that powerful?

@starfall - I have pondered this a bit and for fun here is my proposal on the 4 other colours OP cards.

Inferno
Red - Spell - cost 15 mana
Remove all Prevent damage from opponents creatures in play. Then give each creature and opponents planeswalker 30 damage.

Natures Wrath
Green - Spell - cost 16 mana
Fetch the next 3 different creatures in you library and put them on the battlefield, then reinforce each creature 3 times, then give each creature hexproof until the beginning of your next turn.

Life Leach
Black - support (indestructible) - cost 14 mana
Your planeswalker has prevent damage from all other sources than this support.
At the beginning of your round, your Planeswalker receives 4 times X damage where X is reinforcements on this support divided by 2 rounded down.
Then return your first creature from graveyard to the battlefield with Vampire subtype.
Reinforce this support at the end of your turn.

Divine intervention
White - support(indestructible) - cost 12 mana
At the beginning of each players turn your planeswalker health is set to 80.
Then summon an Vigilant angel (4/4) (same token as Divine visitation).

Mburn7

Tremayne said:

starfall said:

If you're one of the players who thinks it's OK that BSZ exists, then I ask this question to you:

Why not give the other colors something that powerful?

@starfall - I have pondered this a bit and for fun here is my proposal on the 4 other colours OP cards.

Inferno
Red - Spell - cost 15 mana
Remove all Prevent damage from opponents creatures in play. Then give each creature and opponents planeswalker 30 damage.

Natures Wrath
Green - Spell - cost 16 mana
Fetch the next 3 different creatures in you library and put them on the battlefield, then reinforce each creature 3 times, then give each creature hexproof until the beginning of your next turn.

Life Leach
Black - support (indestructible) - cost 14 mana
Your planeswalker has prevent damage from all other sources than this support.
At the beginning of your round, your Planeswalker receives 4 times X damage where X is reinforcements on this support divided by 2 rounded down.
Then return your first creature from graveyard to the battlefield with Vampire subtype.
Reinforce this support at the end of your turn.

Divine intervention
White - support(indestructible) - cost 12 mana
At the beginning of each players turn your planeswalker health is set to 80.
Then summon an Vigilant angel (4/4) (same token as Divine visitation).

Funnily enough, despite all of these being absurdly powerful (I don't love the black one, but still), none are even close to as monstrous as BSZ, simple because none of them can create loops (ok, maybe the green one with some very specific creatures, but none of the other ones)

What makes blue so powerful is its ability to vomit a deck's worth of cards onto the field at once (and to remove anything and everything your opponent has out at the same time).  A Blue Sun that draws another Blue Sun can cast that one for 80% (ish, don't feel like mathing it out) power.  With a little help you can cast 5-500 in one turn.  None of these other "super spells" can even come close to that kind of impact.

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Tremayne

@Mburn7 - very true. These cards will not create any loop (I tried to make a couple of looping cards but they just felt samey to BSZ, so I thought up something different).

The red and green can instantly kill most PWs with a few support cards, but they should kill in two rounds and perhaps prevent being killed by a BSZ loop.

I agree the black one is not very good. I had an idea about discarding cards and then either apply some kind of effect for each type of card discarded this way or return a number of creatures from the GY, but creatures just felt like the green card was copied and I couldn’t find any effects that was really thematic. so this was I came up with during writing the post.

BTW - @starfall thank you for the challenge.