Your thoughts on the *now* 90 second timer.

Scottyp_123

There's a better solution.

All we need is an end turn button added to the pause menu.

Let the AI have the timer and let players have an end turn button on the pause menu. If I build a deck that loops, I would love to be able to just break the loop at will and let it resolve. This is how it works in the paper game after all.You can make an infinite loop and just give up your turn when you feel like it.  

Froggy

There's a better solution.

Get rid of this timer.

Gunmix25

I'm hesitant but willing to give it a try

I have been playing with it a bit and almost all of my decks have not hit that 90 second timer. only two have and that was Trostani and a recycling BSZ build that I use.

My thoughts are this... when it did trigger, I was so far in the lead positioning wise (total of P/T vs opponent's P/T total) that having the timer kick in was irrelevant. Greg would make a whimper of a turn and I resume and kill him off in the next turn or two. 

at 90 seconds the timer still allows for large combos to go into effect. If you are experiencing the timer and you are in a poor spot, I fault that to deck design rather than the timer. harsh opinion, but seriously, if a player make a turn loopy loop long enough for a 90 timer to kick in and not be in a good position at the end of the timer then it was soft build prior the timer to begin with. imho, I would take that as a hint to rebuild my deck a bit and try something different. I shouldn't be having a deck loop out over 90 seconds with little to no return on investment.

Anyways, I found that the timer does not affect me for the most part. I have not seen it trigger for Greg once. I have been slaughtered by a couple of 1st turn Omni builds that looped and killed me before the timer kicked in. So I know that long loops like that work within the 90 seconds for a win.

18 seconds would have been an entirely different story and a nightmare.

Froggy

There's a better solution.

Gunmix25 said:

I have been playing with it a bit and almost all of my decks have not hit that 90 second timer. only two have and that was Trostani and a recycling BSZ build that I use.

My thoughts are this... when it did trigger, I was so far in the lead positioning wise (total of P/T vs opponent's P/T total) that having the timer kick in was irrelevant. Greg would make a whimper of a turn and I resume and kill him off in the next turn or two. 

at 90 seconds the timer still allows for large combos to go into effect. If you are experiencing the timer and you are in a poor spot, I fault that to deck design rather than the timer. harsh opinion, but seriously, if a player make a turn loopy loop long enough for a 90 timer to kick in and not be in a good position at the end of the timer then it was soft build prior the timer to begin with. imho, I would take that as a hint to rebuild my deck a bit and try something different. I shouldn't be having a deck loop out over 90 seconds with little to no return on investment.

Anyways, I found that the timer does not affect me for the most part. I have not seen it trigger for Greg once. I have been slaughtered by a couple of 1st turn Omni builds that looped and killed me before the timer kicked in. So I know that long loops like that work within the 90 seconds for a win.

18 seconds would have been an entirely different story and a nightmare.

While I completely agree with this. I am more upset on the principle of the thing. If I recall correctly, most (not all) players were against this before they released it. They also informed us about this after it was already too late to revoke the game rule change. And despite the outrage on the forums, they still went ahead with it. Granted they changed it from 18 to 90 seconds.

But again, it is the principle of how this was done and how this is being treated.

I’ll be interested to see what goes on the moment we face Azor’ Gateway. Veteran players dislike this opponent. If Greg cascades (which does happen), it’s pretty much up to luck. Now how about newer players that are entirely reliant on cycling to get by?

Its these very obvious oversights that are not okay. I have never lost to a game due to LPS interference, but my upset isn’t about my own game.

This system needs removal with Vindicate or Wrath of God.

arNero

Nope. No timer.

The timer showed up when I was running my own turn doing I don't remember what, but it just didn't show up at ALL when AI went infinite with Blue Sun's Zenith + Hour of Promise + Thunderherd Migration. (random quip: BAN BSZ)

Frankly, I say that if this timer system is meant to deal with infinites, it has failed very, VERY miserably. What does it really achieve, actually? It barely ever showed up in the many games I've played, and on the cases where it SHOULD show up, it didn't.

I believe I have a better idea to deal with infinites, but I'm afraid that it would require changing a few fundamental things in the game which I firmly believe too many, um, "veterans" in this forum will disagree at best.

OmegaLolrus

There's a better solution.

arNero said:

The timer showed up when I was running my own turn doing I don't remember what, but it just didn't show up at ALL when AI went infinite with Blue Sun's Zenith + Hour of Promise + Thunderherd Migration. (random quip: BAN BSZ)

Frankly, I say that if this timer system is meant to deal with infinites, it has failed very, VERY miserably. What does it really achieve, actually? It barely ever showed up in the many games I've played, and on the cases where it SHOULD show up, it didn't.

I believe I have a better idea to deal with infinites, but I'm afraid that it would require changing a few fundamental things in the game which I firmly believe too many, um, "veterans" in this forum will disagree at best.

I think the idea was to be able to put an actual end to a turn that has gone on for an infinite span so the game can end naturally. I don't think it had anything to do with game balance.

Even if it was game balance, it was a really horrible idea. The original 18 seconds was too short even most normal combos, much less something to loop its way around. I had originally thought the timer was an okay, but as I've seen it in action, it's pretty much useless. If you set it at say... thirty seconds, it's useless. There are too many combos that don't rely on infinite card draw and looping that can take that long (like say, Path of Discovery and March of the Multitudes); there are too many infinite loop combos that can do 200+ damage in less time than that. The timer looks like a solution, but it's not.

I THINK 90% of the problems with the loop could be fixed by nerfing say... five or six cards. BSZ is the main offender, from what I've seen. My first thought would be to bring it in line with its paper version, but... *shrugs*

//Removed Profanity -Brigby

andrewvanmarle

Nope. No timer.

The timer screws over non loop deck with cards like mirror march, path,any huatli 2 deck and more.

its not the way to make play more enjoyable....

Tengu316

There's a better solution.

Scottyp_123 said:

All we need is an end turn button added to the pause menu.

Let the AI have the timer and let players have an end turn button on the pause menu. If I build a deck that loops, I would love to be able to just break the loop at will and let it resolve. This is how it works in the paper game after all.You can make an infinite loop and just give up your turn when you feel like it.  

This. So much this. All the this there is. Give the AI the timer to prevent run-on games (unless the devs REALLY feel like a coding headache). Give the player the option to end their run. Look at paper: you have to declare a value or "end point" on a infinite combo ("If the loop contains one or more optional actions and one player controls them all, that player chooses a number. The loop is treated as repeating that many times or until another player intervenes, whichever comes first.") This effectively gives us that end point.

Outersider

I think it's great now I can actually play games without having to stop, lay down the phone for half an hour or more. There is no need for infinite loops. 

Brakkis

There's a better solution.

Outersider said:

I think it's great now I can actually play games without having to stop, lay down the phone for half an hour or more. There is no need for infinite loops. 

If you ever had to put your phone down and walk away from a loop in the game - you either already lost and should have just quit the match, or you built a poorly designed deck with no manual stop trigger and it's your own fault.

Outersider

All I see here is a bunch of people who play a deck that has no other purpose than to annoy other players based on a win condition due to looping. That in my opinion is not only a poorly designed deck, it's one played by players who seriously have no idea of playing a game is meant to be... fun... They are not fun, they are annoying and lack any original thought.  Not my fault ... it's yours. 

//Removed Insult -Brigby

Mburn7

I'm hesitant but willing to give it a try

Outersider said:

All I see here is a bunch of people who play a deck that has no other purpose than to annoy other players based on a win condition due to looping. That in my opinion is not only a poorly designed deck, it's one played by players who seriously have no idea of playing a game is meant to be... fun... They are not fun, they are annoying and lack any original thought.  Not my fault ... it's yours. 

//Removed Insult -Brigby

I'm not quite sure you're getting whats going on here.  Most players are just complaining that the game is being changed to forcibly stop their turns at an arbitrary point.  Due to variables like display lag and animation speed everyone gets a different amount of time on their timer, which means that some non-loop decks are also negatively impacted by the LPS.

And loop decks are (for the most part) extremely difficult to make work and are very fun (usually) when you finally get a nice long loop going.  Obviously (as others have mentioned) copying someone else's loop deck doesn't take much skill, but making one yourself is definitely fun and challenging.

Now, I personally don't mind the LPS because I feel any deck that gets stopped by it should have lethal on the board by the time it is done, otherwise it is not a good deck.  But I can understand why others don't see it that way.

And if you think these are troll decks then you haven't been around here very long.  There used to be a bunch of cards that would instantly freeze/crash the game when they were used, and players would make decks out of them for events to intentionally tank the scores of anyone they faced.  Nowadays the freezes only come when the Player uses certain cards (mostly), so its a lot harder to be a "good" troll.

Please keep comments respectful while on the forums, we all like a good debate but there is no need to get insulting or condescending with your tone.

Froggy

There's a better solution.

Today’s TotP game:

My Brokhan ID loop starts. Baral and Prism Array are in play, things are happening, opponent is losing life, I’m watching for game to end. Cool.

Oh! Wait! Wait!!

The AI had a surprise flash card? No! A programming ticking that incorporates flash! Huh! Interesting.

I watch curiously to see what happens next. It was truly amazing.

My ID is at 16 shields.

Opponent has 1 health left.

I have a full hand.

I cast Rishkar’s Expertise.

Its a cascade and animation theatre.

Well, the AI uses a very unique form of poor programming as the timer runs out during my animations.

Who cares right? RE completed it’s animations and gem cascades.

Wait!

ID doesn’t trigger...

So the AI now has an advantage due to poor programming.

*mind blown*

Here I am with a hand filled with cards - all mana filled. An ID support at 16. With 5 extra swaps. Yet I can’t cast a card.

And LPS actually deactivates my existing cards in play.

So.

When will you nuke this useless feature @Brigby?

(Yes, I won the match that turn by Baral ending it, but this is about the principle of dysfunctional programming).

Narcoticsagent

This is the icing on an already bad cake (3.2's level system)

Froggy said:

Today’s TotP game:

My Brokhan ID loop starts. Baral and Prism Array are in play, things are happening, opponent is losing life, I’m watching for game to end. Cool.

Oh! Wait! Wait!!

The AI had a surprise flash card? No! A programming ticking that incorporates flash! Huh! Interesting.

I watch curiously to see what happens next. It was truly amazing.

My ID is at 16 shields.

Opponent has 1 health left.

I have a full hand.

I cast Rishkar’s Expertise.

Its a cascade and animation theatre.

Well, the AI uses a very unique form of poor programming as the timer runs out during my animations.

Who cares right? RE completed it’s animations and gem cascades.

Wait!

ID doesn’t trigger...

So the AI now has an advantage due to poor programming.

*mind blown*

Here I am with a hand filled with cards - all mana filled. An ID support at 16. With 5 extra swaps. Yet I can’t cast a card.

And LPS actually deactivates my existing cards in play.

So.

When will you nuke this useless feature @Brigby?

(Yes, I won the match that turn by Baral ending it, but this is about the principle of dysfunctional programming).

I had an almost identical thing happen to me the day they released LPS. Difference was I had 17 worthless swaps to go through and my opponent comboed out and killed me next turn. So it took less than 10 games for LPS to cost me a top 5 finish. Since then I have only lost one more game to LPS but that's still 2 games to many. 

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Froggy

There's a better solution.

Narcoticsagent said:

Froggy said:

Today’s TotP game:

My Brokhan ID loop starts. Baral and Prism Array are in play, things are happening, opponent is losing life, I’m watching for game to end. Cool.

Oh! Wait! Wait!!

The AI had a surprise flash card? No! A programming ticking that incorporates flash! Huh! Interesting.

I watch curiously to see what happens next. It was truly amazing.

My ID is at 16 shields.

Opponent has 1 health left.

I have a full hand.

I cast Rishkar’s Expertise.

Its a cascade and animation theatre.

Well, the AI uses a very unique form of poor programming as the timer runs out during my animations.

Who cares right? RE completed it’s animations and gem cascades.

Wait!

ID doesn’t trigger...

So the AI now has an advantage due to poor programming.

*mind blown*

Here I am with a hand filled with cards - all mana filled. An ID support at 16. With 5 extra swaps. Yet I can’t cast a card.

And LPS actually deactivates my existing cards in play.

So.

When will you nuke this useless feature @Brigby?

(Yes, I won the match that turn by Baral ending it, but this is about the principle of dysfunctional programming).

I had an almost identical thing happen to me the day they released LPS. Difference was I had 17 worthless swaps to go through and my opponent comboed out and killed me next turn. So it took less than 10 games for LPS to cost me a top 5 finish. Since then I have only lost one more game to LPS but that's still 2 games to many. 

That’s terrible! You should have been compensated for that loss.

I also noticed yet another point of poor programming, which puts the player at a disadvantage with this LPS. Yet the AI benefits.

Apparently animations don’t count on the timer, yet they do to a degree. The player animations are slower than the AI animations (you don’t go through the slow process of drawing cards and seeing a card is being brawn for the AI - it just appears in his hand). So the AI’s turns are shorter/faster to execute and so he is able to do more in those 90 seconds.

Shame.... Shame...

Theros

Nope. No timer.

The LPS messed with decks that interact with graveyard cards like firemane and beacon bolt when activated.
If u want to deal damage with bolt make sure LPS is not triggered. Otherwise you won't be able to play bolt. Very ennoying.
The LPS concept is good when implementation is right

Gilesclone

Nope. No timer.

LPS breaks decks that don’t loop while letting really loopy decks run for 10 minutes or more.  Just fix the broken cards.

Froggy

There's a better solution.

So this past event would have been fun. But this LPS interfered with 5+ one turn kills for Mr. Nick and his sub-boss, Mr. Foulbreath. Didn’t lose anything because of it. But it deprived me of bragging rights. Not cool!

Ampersand

I had an LPS notification soft lock my game in HOD. I had two losses, both due to soft locks/freezes. It is utterly unacceptable for the LPS to be locking games and causing losses in highly competitive events like HOD.

EDIT: and yes, I submitted a ticket in game.