Player Level and Card Experience (2/25/19)

BeyKlaw

IM_CARLOS said:

I think the majority will quit before posting here. 

I think the majority don't even realize this is an issue, because they never visit these forums due to the vast negativity posted here by the veteran 1.87%'ers.  

IM_CARLOS

BeyKlaw said:

IM_CARLOS said:

I think the majority will quit before posting here. 

I think the majority don't even realize this is an issue, because they never visit these forums due to the vast negativity posted here by the veteran 1.87%'ers.  

Mmh may be not precisely enough. If a player get angry about a game will quit or quote. What's the better option for the game?
I think the majority of that player choose option number one. 

And you are right, the majority of all player don't use the forum. My opinion. 

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Kinesia

BeyKlaw said:

IM_CARLOS said:

I think the majority will quit before posting here. 

I think the majority don't even realize this is an issue, because they never visit these forums due to the vast negativity posted here by the veteran 1.87%'ers.  

The vast majority don't realise because most gamers just _play_, the people that visit _any_ forum (reddit, facebook, here, whereever) are the MINORITY. We THINK we are oh so important, and sure, we may be informed, but we are an extreme minority. The game has to appeal and KEEP appealing to people who NEVER visit any forum EVER. That is the key to every single successful game, that it just works and is appealing WITHOUT anything external.

The community makes things better, absolutely, but so many people don't even know communities exist and they NEVER will.

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BeyKlaw

starfall said:

Please stay on topic.

But the topic is so boring and meaningless to the majority of players.

It's like when billionaire 1%'ers freak about tax increases on the uber-rich.  They claim unfairness and try to win over the masses to their cause.  The majority of the lower 99%'ers, if they pay attention at all, usually dismiss these uber-1st world problems, as it doesn't really affect them and who really cares if the uber-rich lose an insignificant amount of their income.

This 'leveling' issue only affects a minority of 1.87%'s, which includes:

- Robbing them of a few goodies (nothing a player can't earn in a few rounds of RT)

- Lowering their self-percieved in-game status (In the profiles, I can see other players' level and number of cards mastered.  Though I know neither number indicates a player's skill level, I can still be dutifully impressed by their diligence).

- Preventing them from achieving levels where they will be playing only the other 5 players who have achieved level 83 (which improves their game experience how?)

In the postings about this issue, I have read:

- Calls to withhold purchases (another Not Another Dime movement, really?)

- Calls to give low ratings and reviews to the app on other sites

- Disrespectful comments about  Oktagon and other players (though to be fair, the most unsportsmanlike comment about another player in this thread was retracted by the author.)

But I digress.  Back to the TOPIC, I would suggest threads on this 'leveling' issue be moved the 'Bugs & Technical Issues' section.  This is a problem in the app, and should be addressed.  It should be given a priority appropriate to the number of players it affects and how it impacts the game experience of the majority of players.

Khyb

This affects every player dramatically.  At stake is whether the current devs will honor previous systems when they make changes.  Online games like this, since they don’t have a physical medium, require a lot of trust that devs won’t just magic away accrued resources in the name of game improvement.  If what I can earn today by the rules can be changed arbitrarily tomorrow without recompense then I should think very serious about whether I should pay for something or invest time in it.  IMO, this is the biggest issue you can have in an online game and it’s why I joined the forums when I realized what was happening.  The trust issue is a make or break issue in online gaming and I don’t think just 1.5% of the players of this game would agree.

wereotter

IM_CARLOS said:

Right, but if nobody stand up nothing will be changed. And the people who stand up will stand by this game. They not only invest time there, they invest also here to improve the game. Just quit the game is much easier and I think the majority will quit before posting here. 

The majority of players will look at this new system and say "oh, huh.... guess I'm level X now" and go on with their lives since the player level currently has absolutely no impact on the game itself. Additionally, your average player won't care enough to see how their level compares to everyone else, nor will they dig so deep into why they're what level they are.

I can tell you as someone who does post on the forums, all I've done in my won coalition is look at my teammates profiles, see what level they are, and look if they've posted any of their decks. I haven't even looked at how many cards they've mastered. And if that's as far as I've gone, I would assume the more typical player possibly hasn't even done that (especially considering how many people in my coalition haven't even changed their photo or title yet.)

Mburn7

BeyKlaw said:

starfall said:

Please stay on topic.

This 'leveling' issue only affects a minority of 1.87%'s, which includes:

- Robbing them of a few goodies (nothing a player can't earn in a few rounds of RT)

- Lowering their self-percieved in-game status (In the profiles, I can see other players' level and number of cards mastered.  Though I know neither number indicates a player's skill level, I can still be dutifully impressed by their diligence).

- Preventing them from achieving levels where they will be playing only the other 5 players who have achieved level 83 (which improves their game experience how?)

Wow this is incredibly attacking.  The self-percieved in game status is the only reason anybody ever plays a game.  Nobody says "I want to suck at this" when they do something.  For some the only reason they play a video game is for the satisfaction of leveling up and being able to see that their level is higher than everyone else's.  Please don't write that off as meaningless just because you personally don't see it that way.

Also, for most of us it isn't about the matchmaking (and when it is it is more for concern for others who will need to face against our degenerate combo decks with no chance of winning).  It isn't about the rewards.  Its about the fact that Oktagon took something that we spent dozens (if not hundreds) of hours achieving for no reason other than boredom and/or completionism and made the active decision to not only make all those hours meaningless, but to actively punish us for spending them on this game and not something else. 

And to make matters worse, this decision was made and implemented with no warning, no explanation, and no information.  The only reason anyone knows how the leveling system works is because players like myself spent dozens of hours collecting screenshots from other players (or starting new accounts just to level them up) and compiling them in one place.  We still don't have any idea how matchmaking based on level will work, or how those of us who were under-leveled will ever be able to catch up to everyone else.

I get your frustrations with all the whining, it is really annoying to everyone else too.  And I agree that some people are taking their frustrations way too personally here.  But that doesn't mean that they aren't valid complaints.

BeyKlaw

Mburn7 said:

The self-percieved in game status is the only reason anybody ever plays a game. 

WOW, please don't lump me into that  insulting blanket statement.

According to Merrium-Webster, one of the definitions of a game is:

(1): activity engaged in for diversion or amusement

I play the game because I find it fun and it gives me a temporary distraction from life's stresses.  I could not care less how other anonymous players perceive my skills as a game player (except when I am supporting my coalition in an event).

I just don't take this game as seriously as many in this thread.  To be honest, the only reason I 'dropped in' to post on an issue I don't really care about was I detected symptoms of cyber-bullying occurring in this thread (I really hate that).  If players are going to use their level to put down other players for their own 'perceived' superiority, then I would rather the whole leveling feature be scrapped entirely.

Mburn7

BeyKlaw said:

Mburn7 said:

The self-percieved in game status is the only reason anybody ever plays a game. 

WOW, please don't lump me into that  insulting blanket statement.

According to Merrium-Webster, one of the definitions of a game is:

(1): activity engaged in for diversion or amusement

I play the game because I find it fun and it gives me a temporary distraction from life's stresses.  I could not care less how other anonymous players perceive my skills as a game player (except when I am supporting my coalition in an event).

I just don't take this game as seriously as many in this thread.  To be honest, the only reason I 'dropped in' to post on an issue I don't really care about was I detected symptoms of cyber-bullying occurring in this thread (I really hate that).  If players are going to use their level to put down other players for their own 'perceived' superiority, then I would rather the whole leveling feature be scrapped entirely.

I didn't mean that statement as insulting, and I certainly didn't mean it to be that you care how others perceive your skills (hence self-perceived).  All I meant is that people like to feel like the time they are spending on a game is rewarding.  Nobody plays a game in order to lose at it.  Everyone is, in some way, trying to win.  The only difference is how much effort, time and money they are willing to spend in order to win.  For some people their level is that indication that their effort, time, and money is going toward them "winning" and not "wasting" their resources.

If you don't agree with that, that's fine.  I'm not trying to attack anyone.  I just like to try to keep the debates here healthy and not too bullying-y (which, as you pointed out, is a definite problem with this thread)

Tremayne

@BeyKlaw - I think you need to read Mburn7 post again!

As I read his post, he is asking you to be respectful to others, who do care about their in game achievements, since you apparently do not fall into the category.

without asking for another Merrium-Webster definition, I didn’t even know there was something called cyber-bullying. But as you can see someone has strong feelings about this subject.

BeyKlaw

After thinking about this issue some more, I've decided I do care about this.  Individual player leveling really has no place in this game.

MtGPQ is really more of a co-operative game than a competitive game, if you really think about it.
- We play against an AI that operates other player's decks, not true PvP.
- We compete in single player events for rewards, but no stats are persisted.
- In coalition events, we co-operate with our teammates to achieve a higher team score, but nothing is persisted on an individual basis, unless you count all-time points, which go away when you switch coalitions, so not really an indication of player status.
- I think most agree that card mastery doesn't indicate a player's skill level.
In my MtGPQ experience with other players, I have seen mostly players helping others get better, whether with deck-building, encouragement over a bad case of RNG or just getting started.  It happens in the Slack and Discord channels, in videos produced by players and even with those who choose to share their favorite decks in their profiles.
Player leveling is just giving players a way to compare themselves with others, whether it be superiority over others or inferiority for not measuring up.  This is not what this game has been about, nor should it be going forward.  
I propose either rolling back the entire player leveling system, or making it invisible (under the hood) to users (with no rewards or visible status/XP number).  We don't need to know the exact details of how the match-making engine works, just as we don't know the details of the game-playing engine.  Most companys consider this proprietary logic anyway.
I know many will not agree with my sentiments.  I am not trying to disrespect anyone else's opinions.  I do not want to see MtGPQ devolve into a me-me-me game.  Keep it fun, co-operative and don't take it so seriously!

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Froggy

Off topic, off topic, off topic.

The system is faulty and should be fixed.

But please keep things civil here. This is not a forum for jabs or slighting remarks. If you want to rant, go to the thread for it and remain civil.

If something is implemented that causes player upset and distrust, it is within the interest of the devs and D3 to fix it. Players going off topic and insulting each other will never resolve anything. The problem is the implementation of a system that was in fact not properly done.

Have a nice day to you all.

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Outersider

To me the obvious solution is pretty damn simple... Every common card has x value, every uncommon has x value, every rare x, every mythic and masterpiece has x value..... The values don't change.. Everyone has the same value for their cards.  Levelling could then proceed on the basis of events played (x for each event played and x for placement in the event).  The starting point however has to be at the same time for everyone for events. Advancement could then be hased on game play AND Color Mastery....  

Brigby

*Once again, please keep all comments civil and on-topic. While I understand this is a very passionate topic for players to discuss, if insults and discourteous commentary continues, then I will be forced to close this thread.

Thank you for understanding.

OmegaLolrus

Well, let me say this, and maybe it can help put into perspective how some of the less-veteran players feel about it.

So I'm just barely over Platinum in every color except Blue, and I'm maybe two or three cards away from hitting Platinum there. So I am literally the person in the position that the veteran players are concerned about. I've got scads and scads of cards that I haven't mastered that could be used to rocket me to heretofor unknown levels.

Is that going to happen? Yeah, no. I'm at level 38, and I'd be surprised if, barring any changes to the game, I'm above 40 by the end of the month. Sure, I'll be mastering a bunch of new cards when Allegiance hits, but so will everyone else. I needs me my Simic.

I would love to have a big old level number next to my name. I'd love to have that perceived prestige. But if I sit down and do nothing to be work on leveling cards, I'd quit the game by the end of the week. I've got four, maybe five decks that I really like playing with (working on number six, but I can't find just the right combination of cards for Nissa, Worldwaker to make me happy). Those are all filled with eight or nine cards I've long since mastered and maybe one or two that I haven't.

The reason those one or two haven't been mastered? Because I'm rotating them in to see if I like them more than the cards that I already mastered that used to have those slots. Unless they're Common, or a really good synergizing Uncommon, they're probably going to get rotated out before they get mastered.

So yeah, I could theoretically pass the people with a higher number of mastered cards than me. But, unless they're on this forum... They probably don't even realize the potential for that to happen, and even if they do... there's a really good chance they wouldn't care. I know I don't. I'm happy with my level 38, I think it represents where I am in the game. I realize that there's someone with a level 45 that's got twice the number of cards I do that should probably be 60 or something.

But for those of us on the more casual end of the spectrum, we're going to be a lot more interested in the new toys that are coming out, or the event that we haven't played in two months that's rotating back around. By the time that difference would really come into play, I think the more veteran players will have other options to get the XP they need to get their player level to a more appropriate level and be a couple of dozen levels ahead me, as they probably should be.

That being said, it doesn't invalidate how the people who are upset about this issue feel. All I can say is: I don't think it's going to make as big a deal as you think it will in the long run. Yes, I agree that this whole situation could have been handled better. Brigby is doing everything he can with what he has to work with. I think, short of holding everything back and adding all these XP and level systems at once (which, depending on how big an undertaking it will be, might have been unfeasible from a programming point of view). I beg for patience. I understand if you have none left.

TL;DR - I think those of you that are very upset are blowing this a little out of proportion. I freely admit that I could be wrong.

Mburn7

OmegaLolrus said:

Well, let me say this, and maybe it can help put into perspective how some of the less-veteran players feel about it.

So I'm just barely over Platinum in every color except Blue, and I'm maybe two or three cards away from hitting Platinum there. So I am literally the person in the position that the veteran players are concerned about. I've got scads and scads of cards that I haven't mastered that could be used to rocket me to heretofor unknown levels.

Is that going to happen? Yeah, no. I'm at level 38, and I'd be surprised if, barring any changes to the game, I'm above 40 by the end of the month. Sure, I'll be mastering a bunch of new cards when Allegiance hits, but so will everyone else. I needs me my Simic.

Here's my counter-argument:

Matchmaking will be based on level.  We don't know the exact details but that much has been confirmed.

I am a player who has been in Platinum since the week it was introduced.  I have roughly 1600 mastered cards, not to mention a very large collection of Rare+ cards.

I am level 42, which means there is a very good chance that we will have to face each other's decks once the updated matchmaking comes out.

How is that fair to either of us?