Player Level and Card Experience (2/25/19)

Machine

I'm very sorry, Brigby, but I'm going to be blunt here. This is the most **** story and reasoning I've seen from the devs since I'm playing this game. You're basically telling nothing will change and you're screwing a LOT of players over for being invested into this game. I fully understand some players being demotivated and actually quit playing this game. This is absolute nonsense. Your player base is not content, providing solutions and telling the implementation is a big mistake yet the devs are deaf to our words.

Reading your post, I have to conclude that it contains a lot of (false) assumptions, which in fact blows away most of the reasoning you come up with.

 

Player Level is intended to be completely separate from Color Mastery moving forward.

If it's completely separate, you should have chosen to let every player start at level 1 and gain experience with the new features that will be released in the future, irrespective of color mastery.

This wide gap in levels also creates an intimidation factor for newer players, which can be discouraging for those that are just starting out in the game. -> Did you even consider that newer players might be motivated to also attain such high levels?

Since Player Level is separate from Color Mastery, a Platinum player that may be at a lower level than say...a Gold player, will inevitably surpass them once the new features are added into the game. -> Are you serious? Do you actually believe this? If the Gold player is equally invested as said Platinum player, nothing will change.

This was done on purpose, because we are actually able to give out more rewards if distributed over time, as opposed to all at once. This brings us back again to the topic of future features. -> As said many times before, we don't care about the rewards in this context, let alone future rewards. People are interested in player levels and right now, the current level means jack, because different systems were used to determine the current player levels and that's the BIGGEST issue!

The way this feature has been implemented and this post is beyond insulting. Every player's level should be set to 1 when 3.3. is introduced and let them gain experience following the SAME rules. That would be totally acceptable for me. IF color mastery is still a thing regarding the player level then EVERYONE should receive the same amount of XP for their mastered cards.

You should fix this asap! This is not acceptable.

Dropspot

This is just nonsense. 

You made the wrong move is clear to everyone. Trying to stand by your option isn't going to solve this issue. You need to come up with something that give players the same possibilities. 

If you keep trying to explain your decision, something we already understood and we don't agree with, you are just saying that players are not important to you.

This game is a business case of how to make wrong calls after wrong calls. I can't believe you are really trying to make this game continue to exist.

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Tilwin90

I have a feeling I am missing something here with everyone being so angry at the new system.
Right now the system has not affected our matchmaking, rewards in events or the tier in any way. It's just there as a "thing" on the profile and some minor "recognition" for reaching a certain level. Honestly reminds me of people in a company fighting over meaningless titles and who has the biggest... you guessed it, bigkitty.

Now regarding the intended future, let's see if I understand this correctly:

1) Level will determine matchmaking. So basically the higher your level, the more difficult your life will be in the future. Doesn't this actually put the current players who have already mastered all the cards to an advantage since they retain a lower absolute level compared to other players which might in the future master just as many cards?

2) Nothing has been stated about event rewards. Will event rewards in the future be based on the level somehow if the tiers will disappear? Or will the levels be tied to tiers in any way? I haven't heard any statements in regards to this.

3) The rewards for the leveling up are pretty poo-poo so honestly I don't see how that's a problem. People already complained about that massively to begin with. So we're complaining the rewards are bad, but at the same time we're complaining we are not being given those **** rewards? I honestly don't care... Those origins and legacy packs are not helping me one bit (and probably won't really help many of you either as I suspect they will be filled with very low value 60 orbs/pack dupes).

4) If intimidation is a problem I agree the system should rather start from scratch for everyone than giving people artificial levels (for many reasons and potential problems in the future... having an inconsistent state for existing players being one of those), and going forward it's probably still a wise decision the moment the new tier system is in place.

5) I still think it's a stupid idea to make mastering all cards in the game a cool thing. So not making that a thing about the player level is awesome. Except right now that's all levels are tied to. It's kind of backwards that we want a level system based on a mysterious something else, but we're introducing levels bound to card mastery when card mastery shouldn't be a significant factor. But all I can say about this statement is that it's plain contradictory, not something to get super pissed at.

6) The rate of play cannot be bound to either card mastery or tier. Reaching platinum right now means nothing with all the rotations and legacy events floating around. How is a player seen as playing the game more because he/she is investing the playtime in mastering bad cards vs. I dunno... building different decks with powerful cards? Or playing every daily event? 

7) I don't know what those Competitive Seasons are, but they honestly sound a lot like the Quick Battle system, where the more you battle and win, the higher you get in the leaderboard. But this is a super blind guess as I haven't heard anything factual about this yet, but I know some people will care about those, and others won't (especially if it ends up being a grind that extends over a long period of time such as a month or half a month for example)

Yet still with all this being said I don't see how my gameplay, position in events and access to rewards is inhibited in any way right now by the level system; maybe except those meh rewards I don't care that much about... I leveled up once since the new system and I got a bunch of runes... whatever. I'm not saying the current level mapping is in any way good (from a pure data perspective I find it stupid, and I'm being very gentle here), but I don't see the whole point of being angry about it either. So... meh. 

Mburn7

Wow this is getting to be a very nasty fight.  I agree that we got screwed, but I hope everyone can remain civil.

@Brigby (and @Oktagon_Daiane ) if you (understandably) still aren't sure what's going on with all the swears getting thrown around, here's a quick summary:

-Players who mastered cards after the 3.2 update are at a significantly higher level than players who mastered the SAME NUMBER of cards before the 3.2 update.

-Any future ways to gain xp that are introduced will be available to everyone, making it more or less impossible for players who mastered cards before 3.2 to catch up to those who mastered the same cards after 3.2

-Since there are rewards and pride/bragging rites involved with reaching higher levels, players who mastered cards before 3.2 (who make up a big chunk of the games most vocal members) feel as if they are being punished for spending the time and effort to master cards back when there was no reward for doing so.

-The explanation that full levels/rewards could not be given out for game balancing purposes is neither satisfying nor accurate.  You chose to design a system where the amount of xp needed to reach the next level stops increasing.  If you made it so it would keep increasing (like in every other game ever) there wouldn't have been as big of a problem, especially if you tested and toyed around with the xp curve.   You easily could have made it so every player got all of the xp they had technically acquired already without there being just 1 or 2 waaay at the top

-The fact that players have had to band together as a community to figure out what the xp required for each level and rewards given for each level ourselves is horrible.  You should have released the table with the 3.2 patch notes (for reference, check out the old 1.5.8 release notes that introduced Color Mastery)

-The fact that you think that just giving generic "just wait, more stuff is coming" answers, without giving any details as to how that stuff will alleviate these issues is, frankly, offensive.  We are not children, we do not appreciate being treated as such.  If you truly believe that this is is a good system that was implemented properly, please provide specific examples as to how you will address our concerns with future updates.

Hope this helps, and I hope my fellow forum-goers can keep things civil while we try to work this out.

Laeuftbeidir

After thinking about it.. The best solution would've been to keep the card mastery out of the equation completely. Instead of developing a new system, it was tried to fix the old system by giving it a new look.

I mean, if you've got an old car that wasn't protected from water and starting to rust a decade ago, you wouldn't give it a paintjob and call it a fix, would you?

And yes, in future matchmaking I'm at an unfair advantage. That's why I'm mad. I'm at the top level and I want to fight against players at the same level. The only thing holding my hopes up is the seasonal thingy that, if using something elo like, could work. But my hopes are low.

Regarding the rewards : they get better at higher levels. I've got no clue how good they'll become, but they start being appealing in the sixties

Irishme

Another way to put this into perspective.  HoR had **** rewards but still most of us played it.  But imagine if you started and a message popped up that since you played all the events in the past you can only get to the top 100 even if you have a perfect score.  The reward diffence is minimal so that shouldnt matter right?  Just keep on playing even though you can never achieve the top rank, not because of anything you do now, but just because you played to much before.  

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ZW2007-

Tilwin90 said:

I have a feeling I am missing something here with everyone being so angry at the new system.

<snip>

Yet still with all this being said I don't see how my gameplay, position in events and access to rewards is inhibited in any way right now by the level system; maybe except those meh rewards I don't care that much about... I leveled up once since the new system and I got a bunch of runes... whatever. I'm not saying the current level mapping is in any way good (from a pure data perspective I find it stupid, and I'm being very gentle here), but I don't see the whole point of being angry about it either. So... meh. 

I think you are missing the fact that this new system wasn't designed to exist as it does right now and then be completely abandoned with no future use. They have already stated that they are working towards replacing the color mastery tier system. Player level is likely the first step towards that effort. It's not hard to imagine a future where the color mastery tiers are completely removed from the game and event rewards are based on player level tiers instead. In this case, people have a right to be angry about this.

So yes, right now it really doesn't make much difference. The problem is that in the future, it very likely will make a difference. If the things players are complaining about right now aren't changed by the time we see that future, things will never be changed. This will leave anyone that mastered cards pre-3.2 at a disadvantage when that time does come.

In my previous post, I showed the massive difference between two seemingly similar players. This is not a hypothetical situation. I am Player A and a coalition mate of mine is Player B. I am not disadvantaged by this new system much at all. My coalition mate, however, is at a major disadvantage if my imaginary future comes to fruition. If nothing is changed now, and that future comes true, he is very likely to quit playing and that will hurt our entire coalition. He is also not the only player in my coalition to be in this situation. This situation is not unique to my coalition either. This will not be an isolated incidence in only my coalition. If my coalition loses three players like this, we probably wouldn't be able to maintain our current level of competitiveness which would have a snowball effect, leading to even more of our players quitting. This is a far bigger deal than they realize or want to admit.

Tilwin90

ZW2007- said:

Tilwin90 said:

I have a feeling I am missing something here with everyone being so angry at the new system.

<snip>

Yet still with all this being said I don't see how my gameplay, position in events and access to rewards is inhibited in any way right now by the level system; maybe except those meh rewards I don't care that much about... I leveled up once since the new system and I got a bunch of runes... whatever. I'm not saying the current level mapping is in any way good (from a pure data perspective I find it stupid, and I'm being very gentle here), but I don't see the whole point of being angry about it either. So... meh. 

I think you are missing the fact that this new system wasn't designed to exist as it does right now and then be completely abandoned with no future use. They have already stated that they are working towards replacing the color mastery tier system. Player level is likely the first step towards that effort. It's not hard to imagine a future where the color mastery tiers are completely removed from the game and event rewards are based on player level tiers instead. In this case, people have a right to be angry about this.

So yes, right now it really doesn't make much difference. The problem is that in the future, it very likely will make a difference. If the things players are complaining about right now aren't changed by the time we see that future, things will never be changed. This will leave anyone that mastered cards pre-3.2 at a disadvantage when that time does come.

In my previous post, I showed the massive difference between two seemingly similar players. This is not a hypothetical situation. I am Player A and a coalition mate of mine is Player B. I am not disadvantaged by this new system much at all. My coalition mate, however, is at a major disadvantage if my imaginary future comes to fruition. If nothing is changed now, and that future comes true, he is very likely to quit playing and that will hurt our entire coalition. He is also not the only player in my coalition to be in this situation. This situation is not unique to my coalition either. This will not be an isolated incidence in only my coalition. If my coalition loses three players like this, we probably wouldn't be able to maintain our current level of competitiveness which would have a snowball effect, leading to even more of our players quitting. This is a far bigger deal than they realize or want to admit.

The issue is that we know little to nothing about the future changes so we are all making apocalyptic assumptions (not saying this makes the approach or situation fine!!!)

I think what most of us would want here is more insight and feedback from the community TRULY taken into consideration before putting the change in place. I remember one time when opinions on legendaries were requested from the community and taken into consideration. I can only hope it will be the same for this situation. 

On the assumptions and predicting what's going on I seriously doubt there is a very clear plan on all this so they don't have enough planned to actually present to the community. I expect it was assumed that just putting the levels in with no consequences right now would not have an impact. But again this is me guessing and assuming not stating obvious facts.

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ZW2007-

Here's the way I look at it, there are two possible scenarios:

1. Player levels will never mean anything beyond what we know right now.
2. Player levels will have future implications on the game regarding how players receive rewards.

If scenario 1 is true, the current setup of experience and levels is fine, but changing it wouldn't make much difference either and it would make a lot of players happier than they are currently.

If scenario 2 is true, the current setup is a negative thing for players that already had a majority of their cards mastered. In this case, changing it would reduce or remove this adverse situation.

In either scenario, there is no valid reason to maintain the current system other than as a refusal to admit that it wasn't implemented correctly.

Outersider

Let me just state this........... you screwed VETERANS who mastered their cards pre 3.2.... no amount of posturing is going to change that. Your plans to make it so we can accelerate our leveling doesn't alleviate the screwing we just got.  THANKS FOR GIVING US THE FINGER....  

Fiddler

What @Tilwin90 said above was the post that most resonated with me. With 3.2 I was placed at level 41 and have managed to grind my way to level 45 using what options I had, primarily booster crafting, to get some new cards for mastery. 
That option is mostly gone for me now, and I for one am actually looking forward to new paths to leveling.
Do I fell cheated? Not at all. The rewards for leveling are pretty minuscule compared to regular event awards anyway. 
As for veteran players who managed to stay at the gold tier, what can I say? Perhaps they felt the challenge of winning events with using the smallest set of cards possible was satisfying. It must have been hard to stay out of platinum and I respect their discipline. 

Irishme

With 3.2 I was placed at level 41 and have managed to grind my way to level 45 using what options I had, primarily booster crafting, to get some new cards for mastery. 

The problem with that @Fiddler is I am unable to do that.  I cannot get more cards and master them, I already did that.  So when “new” ways to level comes out, you can do them as well and I can never catch up.  

IM_CARLOS

Well, I will sit on my money until this "bug" is fixed. 

Not only that I miss some real game design in the past (duel and Boft.2 are a shame), I miss the math in this implementation and well, some communication pros that fully explain decisions exact, and in time.

Sorry Brigby, I think that your are short on answers too, but some of the leaders should be fired and someone in your team should study some math, communication and gamedesign.

Until then I will sit on my money. I don't invest in half products with full money, if  the vision behind the product is unclear. And I did not get the vision nor the product. 

GrizzoMtGPQ

Ok, vet here. I didn’t master. It was dumb and I didn’t want to. I’m not affected by this. However, level grinding sucks. And you know what? I’m going to get **** by being able to. You read that right. When I master all my cards I’ll be at level 100 or something. And I’ll match with others at that level. I’ll see the same people for a damn long time. You know what I get for grinding? Orbs. I don’t need orbs. The rewards are not worth bellyaching about. 

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Matthew

GrizzoMtGPQ said:

The rewards are not worth bellyaching about. 

You are completely missing the point if you think this is all about rewards.

Firinmahlazer

starfall said:

Firinmahlazer said:

Hey Brigby thanks for taking the time to address some of the questions that have been floating around. Much appreciated! 

As a matter of interest. may I ask how much you personally have been negatively affected by the XP system?

I don't know and I don't care. I'm plat. Been playing for like 2 years. I have a bunch of cards mastered. Started at like lvl 35? Everyone is upset over something that didn't even exist until a few weeks ago.