Speed and New Releases

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  • FraggleinPA
    FraggleinPA Posts: 20 Just Dropped In
    Dormammu said:
    I was just looking over the Namor announcement and noting his AP costs. Every time a new character is announced or released the AP costs of their abilities play a large role in determining if said character is 'good' or 'bad'. This is because speed rules the meta. This is not news. Speed has ruled the meta since launch when 3Magneto and Ragnarok were unstoppable forces of destruction. So looking at Namor, he seems 'bad' at first glance.

    This has been an alarming trend among newer releases. Take Emma Frost, a classic example of this trend; a nifty concept for a character who is completely spoiled by the obscene cost of her powers. Why do we consider the last two 5-star releases, Kingpin and Cable, to be 'bottom tier'? High AP costs. Too slow. They simply can't compete against the meta; they have no chance. They don't have time to gather four (or more!) matches of a color before the freight train that is Grockitty runs them over. There's no time to set up while withstanding that onslaught.

    The developers should have recognized this a long time ago. Any new character released with three expensive powers is considered immediate rubbish. No one wants them. No one will use them. A character should have at minimum one cheap(ish) power or an accelerating passive. Now, I'm not saying we should go back to the days of Magneto annihilating everyone for 2AP, but speed is critical in both modes of the game (PvP & PvE).

    As players, we don't need more bench-warming obsolete relics that are only rostered because of essential nodes. We need the meta to expand, and the meta can expand. PvP doesn't have to be nothing but Thor/Okoye or Kitty/Grocket at the 5-star tier. It doesn't have to be nothing but Medusa, Grocket, and Gamora at the 4-star tier. Thanos doesn't have to be the only answer in PvE. We can have those things and something else.

    But for that to happen, the developers need to start recognizing they have created a culture of speed. How fast can I do three clears in PvP before shielding? How fast can I do 40+ node clears in PvE so I can get top 10? How can I be faster-quicker-go-go-go?

    Simply said, characters with three massive AP costs need to be a thing of the past.
    I completely agree.  And the necessity of speed to be successful within the game is further evidenced by the newly released Support Circuit event.  If you aren’t one of
    the first three players to enter the event (in a new slice), clear all nodes as fast as possible, and complete final clears just in the nick of time before the event ends, you might as well be in 50th place (the rewards for top 10 and top 50 are almost the same).

    I am sure that most players, especially at the 4* and 5* tiers, would find it refreshing to use teams other than the two main ones the OP mentioned.  Especially in PVP, seeing the same teams (and using the same teams to attack or defend) gets monotonous.
  • wymtime
    wymtime Posts: 3,759 Chairperson of the Boards
    One thing you also missed that has caused characters with high AP abilities to be poor compared to others is the inclusion of passive powers.  When you have passives like 5Thor, or kitty pride in the 5* tier and passives like captain marvel or grocket  Medusa carnage, blade, America, in 4* land the devs have sped up the game even more so these characters that have 10-12 AP powers feel really slow and comparatively weak.  I look at King Pin and Doom and see 2 5* that could be useful and could have interesting pairing, but the meta is saying they will just sit on the sidelines once I champ them.
  • randomhero1090
    randomhero1090 Posts: 396 Mover and Shaker
    I am a big fan of Cable.  So when Cable was announced as a 5*, I was pretty pumped.  His powers seemed unique and "potentially" meta.  Completely spoiled by high AP costs.  Cable's mechanics are really fun and I do enjoy using him, but I just can't see taking him into 5* meta battles...  ever.  Yes, he pairs well with Kitty, but because his green costs 12 and his blue only charges green, so you are extremely dependent on the board to use him.  And by the time you get 9 blue or 12 green, if you are fighting the meta, you are probably goners.  And let's face it, his green is only effective if you've knocked someone down pretty far already.

    When you face Cable, you really don't have to worry about anything.  Not like a Kitty, Okoye, JJ, Thor....  heck even a boosted Carol or XFDP.  Those characters have mechanics and costs that make you THINK when you fight them.

    Cable is a perfect example where a slight tweak could dramatically improve his effectiveness.  I am sure there are tons of examples of covers who would be really enjoyable with just small reworks.

    As for the whole speed thing....  Well it's pretty simple why people pick speed over anything...  The game just takes too much darn time as it is to play.  On top of that both game modes require speed to win.  So any cover which requires some "build up" isn't going to be used.

    As for future 4 releases....  If you don't give me something better then what I already have, I am not going to use it.


  • Straycat
    Straycat Posts: 963 Critical Contributor
    randomhero1090 said:
    As for future 4 releases....  If you don't give me something better then what I already have, I am not going to use it.

    Thats how you get power creep. And also how the game can get stale. I'll use a new character just to try them out at least. If I don't like them then yea they'll sit on the bench. But if they're at least a little fun they can get play over better characters that have thousands of wins already.

  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    The devs have numbers and stats that we do not have access to. The forum is a small portion of the playerbase. The forum is largely made up of highly competitive players. 

    Not all players want speed, speed, speed. I feel many competitive players only want speed and gripe about the grind. Maybe it is them that have lost touch with the game. 

    Sure for top rewards you need to compete fast and grind. But you can actually still progress in this game without even being a top 100 placement player.

    And for all the "trend" of "bad/slow" characters (Emma, namor), we also get a "trend" of "good/fast" characters (prowler, bishop, domino). It feels like many forum goers forget this is a game and not a profession. Not everything has to be for the top 5%. 
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,456 Chairperson of the Boards
    As for Namor, I'm super baffled he has no meaningful way to accelerate himself. Many of the other "expensive" 4* characters can do it - Kraven has a trap that steals an AP every turn and makes more of your best color when matched (this power is a misfire in execution, but at least it shows an acknowledgment he costs a lot), Main Event has both Grand Entrance and The Crowd Goes Wild that aren't reliable, but are also way more than nothing, Hulkbuster can make red on 2 colors, Red Hulk has that green suck, Kingpin has that yellow suck, Coulson accrues AP all over the place passively, Lady Thor makes all those charged tiles that give 3x ap when matched...I mean y'all know. 

    Anyway, i only play to progression in all available modes, so I'd be just fine with doing something more puzzley and less grindy generally.


  • Malcrof
    Malcrof Posts: 5,971 Chairperson of the Boards
    in PVE, AP cost doesn't matter as much anymore, passive's can rule, and now with reed giving away freebies, i think AP cost is the least likely to make a huge difference for me in a 4*. 
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    Dormammu said:
    tiomono said:
    The devs have numbers and stats that we do not have access to. The forum is a small portion of the playerbase. The forum is largely made up of highly competitive players. 

    Not all players want speed, speed, speed.
    If only 5% of us cared about speed and the meta, we'd see other teams than fast meta characters in-game. The forum might be a small sample of players, but we're a small sample of the large picture.
    But doesn't playing at a high level also put you against other people that play at a high level?

    I was just trying to say there are way more people not in this game for the competition. I'm not saying it's perfect for players not playing competitively, just that there is way more to this game than top placement.
  • wymtime
    wymtime Posts: 3,759 Chairperson of the Boards
    tiomono said:
    Dormammu said:
    tiomono said:
    The devs have numbers and stats that we do not have access to. The forum is a small portion of the playerbase. The forum is largely made up of highly competitive players. 

    Not all players want speed, speed, speed.
    If only 5% of us cared about speed and the meta, we'd see other teams than fast meta characters in-game. The forum might be a small sample of players, but we're a small sample of the large picture.
    But doesn't playing at a high level also put you against other people that play at a high level?

    I was just trying to say there are way more people not in this game for the competition. I'm not saying it's perfect for players not playing competitively, just that there is way more to this game than top placement.
    Here is the thing when you think about players who are not on the forum and their potential mindset.  I am using my wife who plays is not trying for 1200 in PVP or top placement in PVE.

     Her first thought is what team will save me the most health packs, then what team will let me hit my progression in each event, and finally what team can I leave out in PVP that will not get slaughtered and lose a bunch of points.

     She uses her 4* meta teams not becuase she is super into the characters but because it meets the criteria best to help her achieve her goals.

      This is why in 5* land of a player gets the 5* meta team that is what they will use.  It might not be about speed, but it is about how the best team will help them achieve their goals and the meta team usually helps achieve the majority of players goals the best.
  • randomhero1090
    randomhero1090 Posts: 396 Mover and Shaker
    Straycat said:
    randomhero1090 said:
    As for future 4 releases....  If you don't give me something better then what I already have, I am not going to use it.

    Thats how you get power creep. And also how the game can get stale. I'll use a new character just to try them out at least. If I don't like them then yea they'll sit on the bench. But if they're at least a little fun they can get play over better characters that have thousands of wins already.

    As a 4* player I do rely on the boosted list, synergies, in-game boosts to push to the top of a bracket.  I got to be resourceful.  I will try out every single player released.  But at the end of the day, the meta 4s are the meta 4s and always find a way to be the fastest.

    There are times in PVE where all I want is a t50 and playing "slow" is fine.  I'll goof around and try other teams.  But when I want to try for some rewards, I gotta use the fastest groups possible.

    Things should become easier.  The bigger and deeper your roster, the faster you should be able to go.  Yes, it does get a little nuts when you are 0-1 turning bosses in alliance events, but it kinda is what it is.
  • PiMacleod
    PiMacleod Posts: 1,786 Chairperson of the Boards
    Anyone play Destiny 2 in here?

    I have fun with it.  Theres this mechanic and event that you can do each week, called a Nightfall.  It's basically a stage where things are a bit harder, and you're trying to achieve a high score.  Higher scores equal better rewards.  And you can try again and again and again... but it's not cumulative.  If you want a better score, you go faster AND you add in modifiers.  THIS is why I bring this up.

    What if there was an event or an option where you could add in modifiers to the game that would make things harder, but offer an incentive for overcoming it?  Examples could be...
    "Domammus Presence"  (works just like level 5 of Hoods blue power)
    "EMP Field"  each turn theres a 50% chance to remove one friendly special tile 
    "Immovable " any attack or match below damage # = 0.

    Etc.etc.  point is, they could add in functions like this, to add new challenge points for us, that dont necessarily scream for the same meta team to be used.  In a Nightfall in Destiny 2, you can add in up to 3 negative modifiers to multiply your point values.  Maybe with a list of negative modifiers for this sort of challenge, we can have the PvE option we're talking about.  Imagine implementing it into today's PvE...  you could gain more points per match, but with drastic changes to how you play.  You might not use the same teams because the boosted list + plus the negative modifier list could give you incentive to use other options to achieve the same progression rewards, and with less node clears.

    Or you could apply it to other game types as well.  It's just a thought.
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    Dormammu said:
    I was just looking over the Namor announcement and noting his AP costs. Every time a new character is announced or released the AP costs of their abilities play a large role in determining if said character is 'good' or 'bad'. This is because speed rules the meta. This is not news. Speed has ruled the meta since launch when 3Magneto and Ragnarok were unstoppable forces of destruction. So looking at Namor, he seems 'bad' at first glance.

    This has been an alarming trend among newer releases. Take Emma Frost, a classic example of this trend; a nifty concept for a character who is completely spoiled by the obscene cost of her powers. Why do we consider the last two 5-star releases, Kingpin and Cable, to be 'bottom tier'? High AP costs. Too slow. They simply can't compete against the meta; they have no chance. They don't have time to gather four (or more!) matches of a color before the freight train that is Grockitty runs them over. There's no time to set up while withstanding that onslaught.

    The developers should have recognized this a long time ago. Any new character released with three expensive powers is considered immediate rubbish. No one wants them. No one will use them. A character should have at minimum one cheap(ish) power or an accelerating passive. Now, I'm not saying we should go back to the days of Magneto annihilating everyone for 2AP, but speed is critical in both modes of the game (PvP & PvE).

    As players, we don't need more bench-warming obsolete relics that are only rostered because of essential nodes. We need the meta to expand, and the meta can expand. PvP doesn't have to be nothing but Thor/Okoye or Kitty/Grocket at the 5-star tier. It doesn't have to be nothing but Medusa, Grocket, and Gamora at the 4-star tier. Thanos doesn't have to be the only answer in PvE. We can have those things and something else.

    But for that to happen, the developers need to start recognizing they have created a culture of speed. How fast can I do three clears in PvP before shielding? How fast can I do 40+ node clears in PvE so I can get top 10? How can I be faster-quicker-go-go-go?

    Simply said, characters with three massive AP costs need to be a thing of the past.

    Let me say a few things about that:
    • You don't have to place 1st to progress
    • You don't have to clear every single node in every possible event to progress
    • You don't have to clear events/subs with absolute optimal timing to progress
    • You can take a whole event off (gasp!) and the world won't end
    • You don't need every single character
    We have been whining and griping about the speed of the meta for years. Namor, and other recent releases, may be our answer.

    You don't have to have this character, or others, if you dont want them.

    Here's an idea: before we tear the developers a new one before this new character has been fully released, let's wait to try it out. After we've played around with it and see how everything pans out, then we can go internet-mental and start screaming: FAIL! GRIND! THIS SUCKS
  • Dogface
    Dogface Posts: 999 Critical Contributor
    randomhero1090 said:
    Straycat said:
    randomhero1090 said:
    As for future 4 releases....  If you don't give me something better then what I already have, I am not going to use it.

    Thats how you get power creep. And also how the game can get stale. I'll use a new character just to try them out at least. If I don't like them then yea they'll sit on the bench. But if they're at least a little fun they can get play over better characters that have thousands of wins already.

    As a 4* player I do rely on the boosted list, synergies, in-game boosts to push to the top of a bracket.  I got to be resourceful.  I will try out every single player released.  But at the end of the day, the meta 4s are the meta 4s and always find a way to be the fastest.

    There are times in PVE where all I want is a t50 and playing "slow" is fine.  I'll goof around and try other teams.  But when I want to try for some rewards, I gotta use the fastest groups possible.

    Things should become easier.  The bigger and deeper your roster, the faster you should be able to go.  Yes, it does get a little nuts when you are 0-1 turning bosses in alliance events, but it kinda is what it is.
    I highlighted this passage and i wonder if you could elaborate on "slow" playing. For me to get T50 i have to work for it. For example in the current Deadpool vs MPQ to get T50 in SCL7 you need 44k points (that's max progression  + 37,5%). Number 1 got  51,5k points (that's max prog + 60%!). So even to get T50 i cannot really play slow. So i'm wondering how you do it.
  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,239 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2019
    Dogface said:
    randomhero1090 said:
    Straycat said:
    randomhero1090 said:
    As for future 4 releases....  If you don't give me something better then what I already have, I am not going to use it.

    Thats how you get power creep. And also how the game can get stale. I'll use a new character just to try them out at least. If I don't like them then yea they'll sit on the bench. But if they're at least a little fun they can get play over better characters that have thousands of wins already.

    As a 4* player I do rely on the boosted list, synergies, in-game boosts to push to the top of a bracket.  I got to be resourceful.  I will try out every single player released.  But at the end of the day, the meta 4s are the meta 4s and always find a way to be the fastest.

    There are times in PVE where all I want is a t50 and playing "slow" is fine.  I'll goof around and try other teams.  But when I want to try for some rewards, I gotta use the fastest groups possible.

    Things should become easier.  The bigger and deeper your roster, the faster you should be able to go.  Yes, it does get a little nuts when you are 0-1 turning bosses in alliance events, but it kinda is what it is.
    I highlighted this passage and i wonder if you could elaborate on "slow" playing. For me to get T50 i have to work for it. For example in the current Deadpool vs MPQ to get T50 in SCL7 you need 44k points (that's max progression  + 37,5%). Number 1 got  51,5k points (that's max prog + 60%!). So even to get T50 i cannot really play slow. So i'm wondering how you do it.
    Don't join the bracket when it first opens. That's when all the hard core alliance players join because T100 alliance placement requires a LOT of over clear points. Join a slacker bracket instead.

    For example in the current Deadpool event I joined Slice 5 in CL7 on Tuesday (day 2) with about 6 hours to go. I did 6 straight clears and was T25. Now with a few hours left in the event I still haven't done my 5th clear on the 4 and 5E nodes and I'm 18th. I figure I'll have a good shot at T20 by the time I finish my 5th clear of the 4&5E and do a final 6th and 7th clear later tonight but I'm 100% getting T50.

    I typically join with 4-5 hours remaining on Day 1 for normal PvE (ie 24 hr nodes) to get into a slacker bracket and 6 clears usually nets T20 and always T50 even for new releases.

    KGB
  • Straycat
    Straycat Posts: 963 Critical Contributor
    PiMacleod said:
    What if there was an event or an option where you could add in modifiers to the game that would make things harder, but offer an incentive for overcoming it?  Examples could be...
    "Domammus Presence"  (works just like level 5 of Hoods blue power)
    "EMP Field"  each turn theres a 50% chance to remove one friendly special tile 
    "Immovable " any attack or match below damage # = 0.

    Its clear that something needs to change for speed to be less valuable. Because even in your examples, speed rules. Almost any disadvantage is overcome by speed. Stealing Ap? Doesn't bother Gritty. Removing tiles? Thorkoye doesn't mind. Plus that would just shift the goal posts. Top placement is optimal play with max debuff mods.
    I'm all for new modes, new win conditions, or something. But if they really wanted us to use more of the roster, to get creative, they'd have to limit how many times you can use a character more than just with their health. I'm not saying bring back heroics, because I hate that. Locking out characters after x uses, giving level debuffs after each use. Just an idea to mix it up
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2019
    I'm in an alliance where the player are not playing for speed. They don't bonus hero the top meta of each tier but the commanders do tell them periodically that if they want to get the top rewards, bonus hero so and so (your standard top meta). End of the day, only 2 do so. The rest continue to BH their favourite non-meta characters. That's 18/20 at least who don't care about speed. It's not a lot, but competitive players occupy top 5-10% of the total playerbase.

    The devs has been fair to introduce various characters with different strategies to cater to all groups of players. So, to all the competitive players, please do not make this game turn into a game of power creep with every new character releases. Not every characters are meant to target the top 5% so that they can match and end the game in 5-turns or fewer.

    We do know that you judge characters based on speed, damage/ap, cost of power etc but there are a large playerbase that don't care about speed.
  • Dormammu
    Dormammu Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    HoundofShadow said:
    We do know that you judge characters based on speed, damage/ap, cost of power etc but there are a large playerbase that don't care about speed.
    I don't want to care about speed, I'm forced to care about speed. I would love to take my near-champed Kingpin and Cable into PvP in the near future. But that would be suicide. Like taking a Plymouth to race a Ferrari.

    I think it's ridiculous that PvE even has placement or anything competitive about it at all. All those placement rewards should be shifted to progression. Player vs. computer. Not speed vs. speed.
  • Dormammu
    Dormammu Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    @Spudgutter

    Please don't take my comments from another thread, make them your own, and use them entirely out of context. If you think I'm a hypocrite don't mock me, just call me a hypocrite. I'm a big boy and can take it.

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