Mastering cards seems a lot tougher than before
Comments
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TheDude1 said:Mburn7 said:
The issue is that the developers made a decision to punish players who had spent the time to master cards despite there being no real incentive to do so.
Leveling up from 39 to 40 gives 50 crystals, 15 jewels, and a Guaranteed non-dupe Legacy Rare Booster (the non dupe is speculation at this point, everything else is confirmed).
So because I started at level 40 instead of 39, I am not allowed to get those rewards? How is that fair?
Leveling up from 28 to 40 gives hundreds of thousands of runes and at least a dozen Legacy Boosters, and that's only with a small percentage of the level rewards confirmed so far. Why is someone who is just barely in Platinum being rewarded with this over someone who has been grinding away in Platinum for years?
In a vacuum I understand your point. But the implementation of this is so punishing for such a large portion of the player base I cannot understand how it was done with anything other than malicious intent. And that bothers me a lot.
I am saying that if you are going to reward people for "leveling up" and you retroactively level someone they should receive the cumulative sum of the rewards for all of the levels they "skipped".
If you do not, and you receive some arbitrary value less than that you "lost" those rewards and are inherantly being "punished" for starting higher (since someone starting fresh at level 1 will get those rewards by the time they reach your level). In this context I'm using "punish" to describe the action of reducing someones leveling rewards solely based on how high their level is. I got less rewards than an equivalent player starting at a lower level. Therefore I was "punished" for being a higher level.TheDude1 said:
I'm using the "large portion" designation simply because:And I'd really caution the "large portion of the player base" argument. Most vocal perhaps, but you're talking about rewards for the top levels of the population by definition. That is almost certainly a lot smaller portion than the massive base sub-40, or even likely sub-30. Truth is neither of us know, and the forums aren't exactly representative.
A ) Almost every player I have heard back from has been at level 30+
B ) Players who have been playing this game for only a few months started at or near level 30.
Considering this game has been around for 3 years or so that leads me to think that there is a very large group of level 30-40 players.
C) Level 28-30 seems to roughly coincide with when Platinum tier starts. Platinum tier is (as best as I can figure out) the largest tier because of 2 years of players being promoted into it with no way out.
But you are correct that I am spitballing my numbers here. There could be 20 million bronze tier players who just started in the last 2 months who all got bumped to level 15 and we'd never know. I don't think that invalidates my argument in any way, though.0 -
TheDude1 said:There's a whole lot of words here attempting to justify something that is just inherently wrong.
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Whether longer players were penalized or the system was just poorly implemented - I'm leaning towards the latter given this companies... history - it always comes back to impartiality. No one should be penalized for "Hey, you started sooner, you did more, you get less".
My opinion is that these rewards are not so egregiously "unfair" to warrant the criticism they've received. I'm willing to bet (with acknowledged absence of data) most of the people sub-30 that would stand to benefit from this new system aren't going to realize those benefits anyway - there's a reason they're sub-30 after 2.5 years of available gameplay, and it likely wasn't that they weren't incented enough to play to that level.
Why do you think that only people below 30 right now are going to benefit from this system?
Say one player started at 42 and the other at 32; both are in Platinum tier - the general thought is that level 30 is the Platinum tier cut-off. They both got the exact same rewards for their levels when they first logged in after the patch. The other player never bothered to master all his or her cards after reaching Platinum (why bother, there's no Diamond tier). Now that there's a reward system for it, there's incentive. They now get more runes, more crystals, more jewels, and more cards as they level from 32 to 42. The level 42 players loses out on those because they went rune grinding in Heroic Story.
Even if the second player was 41, they still get more rewards for going up 1 level then the other player that started at that level.
This effects all players, to varying degrees. Not just the ones sub-30.0 -
People aren't complaining about not getting free stuff. People are complaining about being robbed the chance of doing so in the future.
If someone has mastered a card, they can't Master it again.
Either start everyone at 0 for this new feature, or award people the respective rewards for their mastery.
Anyway my guess is that this was a mistake/oversight and just needs attention from the team.2 -
TheDude1 said:There's a whole lot of words here attempting to justify something that is just inherently wrong.
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.
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Whether longer players were penalized or the system was just poorly implemented - I'm leaning towards the latter given this companies... history - it always comes back to impartiality. No one should be penalized for "Hey, you started sooner, you did more, you get less".
My opinion is that these rewards are not so egregiously "unfair" to warrant the criticism they've received.
This is of course "unfair" for the ones who were in platinum at high level because they will never get rewards for the 28-XX levels when others will be able to because they have mastered less cards.
About unconsistent rewards my personal impression is that our initial reward wasnt based on the converted lvl but on the mastery bracket we were in before the update.
Platinum would start at lvl 28 ... Meaning that any level superior to 28 would have the same original gift ... which seems to be confirmed by players.
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Bil said:About unconsistent rewards my personal impression is that our initial reward wasnt based on the converted lvl but on the mastery bracket we were in before the update.
Platinum would start at lvl 28 ... Meaning that any level superior to 28 would have the same original gift ...0 -
Brakkis said:
Now that there's a reward system for it, there's incentive. They now get more runes, more crystals, more jewels, and more cards as they level from 32 to 42. The level 42 players loses out on those because they went rune grinding in Heroic Story.
Even if the second player was 41, they still get more rewards for going up 1 level then the other player that started at that level.
This effects all players, to varying degrees. Not just the ones sub-30.
I bolded the above because you admit that there was a benefit of someone mastering cards before XP/levels. It may not have been what it is now, but it did exist. Again, it was worth it for some to take the runes back in the day, before there was even a hint that they would get some sort of "level" rewards.
(EDIT: There's also an implicit benefit to mastering cards after Platinum level - they wanted to win at PvP/standard events and earn the associated rewards. If they hadn't played/mastered the cards, they would have lost those rewards, and instead stood to gain now. It's a tradeoff.)
Ironically, you could have rune-grinded (rune-ground?) without mastering new cards if you so chose, but players mastered cards beyond just base platinum mastery did so for some reason that gave them some personal benefit. To me this does not mean they absolutely must be restored with full level benefits retroactively - they got their reward in the past.Furks said:People aren't complaining about not getting free stuff. People are complaining about being robbed the chance of doing so in the future.
If someone has mastered a card, they can't Master it again.
Either start everyone at 0 for this new feature, or award people the respective rewards for their mastery.
Anyway my guess is that this was a mistake/oversight and just needs attention from the team.
They're not robbed. They took the benefits they found valuable at the time. No one knew this opportunity was to come.
If I tell you right now that I'm choosing to not master cards because I believe a year from now they'll change the mastery system again, I'm making a conscious choice, but it would be purely speculative because there is no info to that regard. If you choose to master now with this system because you like the benefits, how can you claim a year from now that you've been robbed?
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Mburn7 said:Bil said:About unconsistent rewards my personal impression is that our initial reward wasnt based on the converted lvl but on the mastery bracket we were in before the update.
Platinum would start at lvl 28 ... Meaning that any level superior to 28 would have the same original gift ...
Of course, any confirmation from the devs would be welcome so 30-40 can master cards before the next update if they still want to play in the top bracket instead of getting caught in a lower bracket by surprise when it's released
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TheDude1 said:They're not robbed. They took the benefits they found valuable at the time. No one knew this opportunity was to come.
If I tell you right now that I'm choosing to not master cards because I believe a year from now they'll change the mastery system again, I'm making a conscious choice, but it would be purely speculative because there is no info to that regard. If you choose to master now with this system because you like the benefits, how can you claim a year from now that you've been robbed?
You were perfectly happy with what you spent the 2 million on. You paid taxes on the 2 million. You had no complaints about any of it at all. But you were supposed to get 10. Were you robbed?
My argument is yes. Just because you didn't know that your arbitrary action would get you the extra 8 million doesn't mean you shouldn't get it. You seem to be saying that since you didn't know in advance about it and you were happy with what you got you should not be allowed to get the multiplier.
Am I understanding this right? Because I don't get it. And if that is the way you feel I don't see how it invalidates what the rest of us are saying.0 -
If you won a State Lottery and were told that it was 2 million dollars, given 2 million dollars, and happily spent 2 million dollars, but afterwards discovered that the lottery was actually 10 million dollars because you had done some arbitrary multiplier thing and the official who told you just pocketed the other 8 without telling you about the multiplier, were you robbed?
You were perfectly happy with what you spent the 2 million on. You paid taxes on the 2 million. You had no complaints about any of it at all. But you were supposed to get 10. Were you robbed?
My argument is yes. Just because you didn't know that your arbitrary action would get you the extra 8 million doesn't mean you shouldn't get it. You seem to be saying that since you didn't know in advance about it and you were happy with what you got you should not be allowed to get the multiplier.
Am I understanding this right? Because I don't get it. And if that is the way you feel I don't see how it invalidates what the rest of us are saying.
This is like saying that you won Powerball when it was "only" a 2M pool, when later rule changes for future jackpots instead made it 10M. And then complained that the commission "only" gave you 5M as a make-good.
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TheDude1 said:If you won a State Lottery and were told that it was 2 million dollars, given 2 million dollars, and happily spent 2 million dollars, but afterwards discovered that the lottery was actually 10 million dollars because you had done some arbitrary multiplier thing and the official who told you just pocketed the other 8 without telling you about the multiplier, were you robbed?
You were perfectly happy with what you spent the 2 million on. You paid taxes on the 2 million. You had no complaints about any of it at all. But you were supposed to get 10. Were you robbed?
My argument is yes. Just because you didn't know that your arbitrary action would get you the extra 8 million doesn't mean you shouldn't get it. You seem to be saying that since you didn't know in advance about it and you were happy with what you got you should not be allowed to get the multiplier.
Am I understanding this right? Because I don't get it. And if that is the way you feel I don't see how it invalidates what the rest of us are saying.
This is like saying that you won Powerball when it was "only" a 2M pool, when later rule changes for future jackpots instead made it 10M. And then complained that the commission "only" gave you 5M as a make-good.
I really feel like you're arguing for the sake of arguing at this point. How far backwards do you intend to bend over to defend this situation?0 -
TheDude1 said:If you won a State Lottery and were told that it was 2 million dollars, given 2 million dollars, and happily spent 2 million dollars, but afterwards discovered that the lottery was actually 10 million dollars because you had done some arbitrary multiplier thing and the official who told you just pocketed the other 8 without telling you about the multiplier, were you robbed?
You were perfectly happy with what you spent the 2 million on. You paid taxes on the 2 million. You had no complaints about any of it at all. But you were supposed to get 10. Were you robbed?
My argument is yes. Just because you didn't know that your arbitrary action would get you the extra 8 million doesn't mean you shouldn't get it. You seem to be saying that since you didn't know in advance about it and you were happy with what you got you should not be allowed to get the multiplier.
Am I understanding this right? Because I don't get it. And if that is the way you feel I don't see how it invalidates what the rest of us are saying.
This is like saying that you won Powerball when it was "only" a 2M pool, when later rule changes for future jackpots instead made it 10M. And then complained that the commission "only" gave you 5M as a make-good.
On top of it, the "older" or more dedicated player over the time ... Gets less .... not fair nor logical.
Now this is happening when an announcement stated that players would be credited respectively depending on their former progression (Which in is this case is half a lie ... )
Not fair, nor logical, nor transparent ... How is it suposed to be received by the ones who take the hit?
As a sidenote :
in the powerball example, you can still try your chance again to get the 10 millions ... In our case, players will never be able to master again.
(Except if cards XP gets reset while players keep their actual tier ...)0 -
OmegaLolrus said:Mburn7 said:Laeuftbeidir said:Thuran said:In addition, the conversion screwed experienced players out of a LOT of potential rewards, as it seems all players above a certain level were given the exact same rewards, be they lvl 42 or 36, meaning the level 42 player got cheated out of 36->42 rewards, but also that the 36 player has likely been cheated out of a HUGE chunk of rewards compared to a new lvl 1 player just starting now
EVERY PLAYER FROM LEVEL 28-40 GOT THE SAME AUTO-LEVEL REWARDS
Expect a longer, angrier post later when I get home from work and have a chance to review all my data.
The answer's probably lurking around somewhere, but lemme ask this:Has anyone leveled above 28 after the patch? Are we sure that there are rewards for 28 to 40-whatever?
I've seen situations in other games where they just... don't have high level rewards implemented.
For anyone who DID master cards though? They get screwed over and won't be able to ever earn those rewards, even if they already put in the same amount if effort.0 -
So who remembers and took a screenshot of what rewards they got when they first logged in? I know I don't and didn't. I have absolutely no idea what I got besides 3 legacy boosters full of dupes. I'm level 38 and honestly don't really care what I did or didn't get. They gave us seasoned players at least 400 free jewels by adding master and expert decks to old planeswalkers. Sure, new players will eventually be able to earn those too but the difference is that I already have the 400 jewels and can invest them in new cards right away which gives me more of an advantage in the here and now. I side with TheDude1 on this one and I think everyone needs to just calm down.0
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@Brigby
I am one of the screwed. I mastered 2,321 cards before the update. I had two unmastered masterpiece when the update occurred. I started at level 41, got up to level 42 and am now locked at this level until a new set comes out. Someone who did not master cards before the update can now progress beyond me. There are many with less than 1,000 mastered cards who are only a few levels behind me. This to me is very unfair.4 -
ZW2007- said:So who remembers and took a screenshot of what rewards they got when they first logged in? I know I don't and didn't. I have absolutely no idea what I got besides 3 legacy boosters full of dupes. I'm level 38 and honestly don't really care what I did or didn't get. They gave us seasoned players at least 400 free jewels by adding master and expert decks to old planeswalkers. Sure, new players will eventually be able to earn those too but the difference is that I already have the 400 jewels and can invest them in new cards right away which gives me more of an advantage in the here and now. I side with TheDude1 on this one and I think everyone needs to just calm down.
I'm not sure the issue is about getting pissed off or not (or i did miss something) but just about informing and understanding.
However, if the debate is about things being fair or not ... There's clearly something wrong in that conversion process and players can legitimately complain about it ... Just as they do when they loose a first rank in HOD because of a bug.
After all, ranting is mostly a therapeutical way to deal with frustration.2 -
@TheDude1 - ok, I’ll bite.TheDude1 said:I'm in the minority and this opinion is going to be incredibly unpopular, but I do not understand the idea that you "lost" or were "cheated" rewards here. This isn't the same as a bug costing you rewards in an event, where an active problem screwed up the agreed-upon prize structure. The prior structure was known, and you played it based on the rewards you received. It was worth it to you to master without these leveling rewards in place - why complain now?
What reward are you referring to? Being in Platinum was not optional, sort of required if you want to use any new card you acquired. Having played for 2+ yearsThis was a one-time windfall, not an "earning" environment. You didn't lose anything "earned" because it didn't exist. They could have just as easily created the XP system and said "Hey we're doing this new thing going forward, here you go." and given nothing.
I agree that this windfall is unexpected, but you must admit that it is very unclear what you are supposed to receive? It appears that it is based upon some sort of criteria. Do you know what those criteria’s are?If you're complaining that "had I known" then you would never be happy with any change in this game because any change yields winners and losers. Glitches like the HoD drop rate happen, planeswalkers go on sale, etc. - all of the complaints about not benefiting to the nth degree has a whiff of sour grapes.
If they had implemented this with full rewards you would have people in the top levels basically being able to buy the whole next set for free, which would exacerbate the gap between the highest and lowest levels. (It's also an incredibly poor way to run a business considering in-game currency is their sole revenue stream, and top-tier people are almost certainly the most likely to spend to acquire that currency.) Giving nothing would create an uproar in the other direction. The devs were in a no-win situation here.
Very good point, totally agree, if this is the case. However, this is pure speculation on your part. D3 “forgot” this in the release notes so they still need to clarify, what determines individual rewards.This was a compromise to at least try balancing the effects of the change, because everyone agreed the mastery system need an update, but no one was going to be completely happy no matter how this was implemented. If they said "we're now going to set an expiration on cards/mastery and drop sets from the catalog" there would be complaining about the time/energy/money expended in mastering those sets back in the day.
Going forward this structure has the potential to work a lot better than the prior mastery setup. I completely agree the lack of transparency, with no notes on the update for this major overhaul, was incredibly frustrating. The leveling basis is clear as mud right now, and having no explanation of how specific levels were determined given the implied math is borderline infuriating. But to complain about being granted rewards that didn't exist for anyone until now, and were never promised? That seems a step too far.
What potential is it you see in the new structure, because I have no clue what D3/Octagon wants with this system. They just have to be sure they haven’t created a new problem, so some players are unable to progress to level 50 if that is needed to enter the rumoured new tier above Platinum, wouldn’t you agree?0 -
Thuran said:OmegaLolrus said:Mburn7 said:Laeuftbeidir said:Thuran said:In addition, the conversion screwed experienced players out of a LOT of potential rewards, as it seems all players above a certain level were given the exact same rewards, be they lvl 42 or 36, meaning the level 42 player got cheated out of 36->42 rewards, but also that the 36 player has likely been cheated out of a HUGE chunk of rewards compared to a new lvl 1 player just starting now
EVERY PLAYER FROM LEVEL 28-40 GOT THE SAME AUTO-LEVEL REWARDS
Expect a longer, angrier post later when I get home from work and have a chance to review all my data.
The answer's probably lurking around somewhere, but lemme ask this:Has anyone leveled above 28 after the patch? Are we sure that there are rewards for 28 to 40-whatever?
I've seen situations in other games where they just... don't have high level rewards implemented.
For anyone who DID master cards though? They get screwed over and won't be able to ever earn those rewards, even if they already put in the same amount if effort.
Glorious, thank you.0 -
Irishme said:@Brigby
I am one of the screwed. I mastered 2,321 cards before the update. I had two unmastered masterpiece when the update occurred. I started at level 41, got up to level 42 and am now locked at this level until a new set comes out. Someone who did not master cards before the update can now progress beyond me. There are many with less than 1,000 mastered cards who are only a few levels behind me. This to me is very unfair.0 -
What reward are you referring to? Being in Platinum was not optional, sort of required if you want to use any new card you acquired. Having played for 2+ yearsI agree that this windfall is unexpected, but you must admit that it is very unclear what you are supposed to receive? It appears that it is based upon some sort of criteria. Do you know what those criteria’s are?Very good point, totally agree, if this is the case. However, this is pure speculation on your part. D3 “forgot” this in the release notes so they still need to clarify, what determines individual rewards.What potential is it you see in the new structure, because I have no clue what D3/Octagon wants with this system. They just have to be sure they haven’t created a new problem, so some players are unable to progress to level 50 if that is needed to enter the rumoured new tier above Platinum, wouldn’t you agree?
- XP is far more transparent than the old system used to be. In the past you had to reference/memorize that chart of how many wins you must attain in which events, which was tucked away into the FAQs if you knew where to click. Now it's front and center as you play. That's not even considering the scenario where you played multiple different events - trying to calculate what you would need from mastery across events was obnoxious.
- Even though there's a one-to-one translation between event wins/XP (ie, 2 HE wins = 12 XP, 1 event win = 20 XP, etc.) I'd argue that people are much generally more familiar/comfortable with XP than number of wins. I've heard no complaints that using XP is fundamentally confusing, only that it was implemented poorly here.
- XP doesn't require full mastery to earn benefits. It used to be that the only thing that boosted you was completely mastering a card. Now you can play a card 50% of the way to mastery and still earn XP on it. There used to be no difference between 0% and 99% mastery of a card, now there is. This is especially important if levels are going to be used for matchmaking purposes in the future, as many others have speculated. There is no more sandbagging cards, and presumably less grinding through unusable cards because they're needed for mastery (unless you truly want that extra XP).
- XP rates can be adjusted very easily and devs can create unique scenarios that take advantage of different ways to earn. The devs have teased that there may be more ways to earn XP than just playing cards, but that remains to be seen. Otherwise, if they find that leveling up is too fast/slow, they can easily (and more transparently) change the structure of events to give less/more XP as appropriate. This was much less clean to implement in the prior color mastery setup - you couldn't really give "extra color mastery" or neatly tweak the win matrix.
- XP now provides a new path for distributing in-game currency beyond event rewards and one-time windfalls. Again, you never saw a direct benefit to color mastery beyond what you earned from events, and at the top levels everyone was pooled into those same reward structures. Now there is a system to make finer gradations between players and reward them separately, without completely doing away with the event rewards.
- Personal opinion on this, but I think the effect of slowing down mastery (making it harder to completely master a card) as implemented has been a benefit, especially to new players who are still building decks and experimenting with new cards. There's less of a chance that they "accidentally" master a card and end up in a higher tier than they really should be.
Do I think that the artificial cap will become a problem in practice? No, because I don't often see new players going out of their way to accumulate and master Legacy cards other than what is given from event rewards and the relative infrequency of Legacy events to master them. So I don't think there will be many cases where a level 20-something suddenly becomes a level 60 because they have mastered all the Legacy cards. That is also pure opinion and the actual results may (will?) prove me wrong.0
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