Mastering cards seems a lot tougher than before

IM_CARLOS

I managed to master two rare from scratch in AI today. 

Yes not available every day, but there are not so many options for legacy cards and high exp. gain. 

Not really a problem for me now. Have only two half mastered MP left. I wait until I have a full Karn deck to max the exp output. 

IM_CARLOS

Fiddler said:

@Tremayne Mastery has not changed that much. I stand by my choice for mastering. Efficiency is gained in Angel's Tomb because your opponent only has 42 HP, which makes quick battles. Second, since you are not facing difficult opponents you can fill your deck with any mix of cards, no matter how cruddy, and master them all at the same time. Last, story mode has no charges so grinding is constant.    

How much exp. you get? 2?

For me AI is okay for time/exp. ratio. 

When next set comes maybe, to handle the masses. 

Brigby

Hi Everyone. I spoke with the team about this, and they provided me the following information.

"Card Mastery works as it always did, everything is still the same. Cards require the same amount of experience to be mastered since the beginning of the CM feature. The only aspect related that has been changed (since launch [of 3.2]) is the frequency of experience gained from historic encounters.

Originally, the first phases of those encounters (Story Mode, BFZ) would progress by giving 10 XP, then 20, then 30. Since the change, that format has been adjusted to have all phases offer 20 XP for the first play. Heroic Encounters will produce more experience than other encounters as well."

(And, of course, the new visual bar players now see for Card Mastery)

Mburn7

Brigby said:

Hi Everyone. I spoke with the team about this, and they provided me the following information.

"Card Mastery works as it always did, everything is still the same. Cards require the same amount of experience to be mastered since the beginning of the CM feature. The only aspect related that has been changed (since launch [of 3.2]) is the frequency of experience gained from historic encounters.

Originally, the first phases of those encounters (Story Mode, BFZ) would progress by giving 10 XP, then 20, then 30. Since the change, that format has been adjusted to have all phases offer 20 XP for the first play. Heroic Encounters will produce more experience than other encounters as well."

(And, of course, the new visual bar players now see for Card Mastery)

Uhhh, please let them know that this is NOT what is happening.  As far as I can tell you get a flat 2 XP for playing any story mode encounter or heroic encounter.

Machine

Brigby said:

Hi Everyone. I spoke with the team about this, and they provided me the following information.

"Card Mastery works as it always did, everything is still the same. Cards require the same amount of experience to be mastered since the beginning of the CM feature. The only aspect related that has been changed (since launch [of 3.2]) is the frequency of experience gained from historic encounters.

Originally, the first phases of those encounters (Story Mode, BFZ) would progress by giving 10 XP, then 20, then 30. Since the change, that format has been adjusted to have all phases offer 20 XP for the first play. Heroic Encounters will produce more experience than other encounters as well."

(And, of course, the new visual bar players now see for Card Mastery)

I'm very sorry Brigby, but this is DEFINITELY not true. In Rising Tensions we were able to master common cards in just TWO fights. Two!! I don't know how many fights are required now to master a blank XP common card, because I haven't tried it yet, but it is at least 5 wins now.

Mburn7 said:

Brigby said:

Hi Everyone. I spoke with the team about this, and they provided me the following information.

"Card Mastery works as it always did, everything is still the same. Cards require the same amount of experience to be mastered since the beginning of the CM feature. The only aspect related that has been changed (since launch [of 3.2]) is the frequency of experience gained from historic encounters.

Originally, the first phases of those encounters (Story Mode, BFZ) would progress by giving 10 XP, then 20, then 30. Since the change, that format has been adjusted to have all phases offer 20 XP for the first play. Heroic Encounters will produce more experience than other encounters as well."

(And, of course, the new visual bar players now see for Card Mastery)

Uhhh, please let them know that this is NOT what is happening.  As far as I can tell you get a flat 2 XP for playing any story mode encounter or heroic encounter.

Your statement is not correct. I played a few Heroic matches yesterday, because I still have some fights to do to get all the color requirements. My cards got 6 XP.

Tremayne

@Brigby - thank you investigating the Mastering situation.

 I have so far not gotten anywhere close to 20 let alone 30 XP in any story mode matches. I have experienced 2 and 6 XP per card.

 I have only encountered 20 XP per card in events like AI, which made me wonder if that was as intended.

could you please provide a list of the intended XP levels similar to the picture in my OP, in the near future, so the players can help you by reporting potential bugs?

sjechua

Brigby said:

Hi Everyone. I spoke with the team about this, and they provided me the following information.

"Card Mastery works as it always did, everything is still the same. Cards require the same amount of experience to be mastered since the beginning of the CM feature. The only aspect related that has been changed (since launch [of 3.2]) is the frequency of experience gained from historic encounters.

Originally, the first phases of those encounters (Story Mode, BFZ) would progress by giving 10 XP, then 20, then 30. Since the change, that format has been adjusted to have all phases offer 20 XP for the first play. Heroic Encounters will produce more experience than other encounters as well."

(And, of course, the new visual bar players now see for Card Mastery)

Hi Brigby,

Please relay to the team that Card Mastery does not work the same as prior to 3.2.
In addition, the mass conversion has not attributed the full XP to all players who had previously Color Mastered cards.

The issue relates back to the Color Mastery table, as posted by the OP.

I have used the current Heroic Encounters to solve the issue for the team.

From various sources, a gauge as to the current (expected) Card Mastery XP Leveling table:

XP Table

1 to 2: 200 XP

17 to 18: 1,200

18 to 19: 1,400

28 to 29: 3,000

32 to 33: 3,400

33 to 34: 3,800

34 to 35: 4,000

35 to 36: 4,000

36 to 37: 4,000

37 to 38: 4,500

38 to 39: 5,000

39 to 40: 5,500

40 to 41: 6,000

41 to 42: 6,500

42 to 43: 6,500

Using my Color Mastery as an example:

Cards Color Mastered prior to 3.2 Update

MP/Mythic: 383

Rare: 509

Uncommon: 712

Common: 721

Assumed XP Gain Table (per card type)

MP/Mythic: 480

Rare: 400

Uncommon: 200

Common: 100

Assumed XP gained

MP/Mythic: 183,840

Rare: 203,600

Uncommon: 142,400

Common: 72,100

Total: 601,940

Actual XP Gain Table (per card type)

MP/Mythic: 84 (20% of assumed gain)

Rare: 48 (12% of assumed gain)

Uncommon: 24 (12% of assumed gain)

Common: 12 (12% of assumed gain)

Actual XP gained

MP/Mythic: 183,840 x 20% = 36,768

Rare: 203,600 x 12% = 24,432

Uncommon: 142,400 x 12% = 17,088

Common: 72,100 x 12% = 8,652

Total: 86,940 XP

Based on Heroic Encounters <— actual XP conversion issue

Previously Masterpieces and Mythics took 16 wins to master a card.

Now the equivalent is 80 wins (at 6 XP per win).

So 16/80 is 20%.

For the rest, Rares/Uncommons/Commons took 8/4/2 wins respectively to master a card.

Now the equivalent is 66.667/33.333/16.667 wins.

So 8/66.667 is 12%. So is 4/33.333 and 2/16.667.

From the XP Table above, that would put me at Level 41, which is where the mass auto-conversion placed me after the 3.2 update ... Q.E.D.

Thuran

In addition, the conversion screwed experienced players out of a LOT of potential rewards, as it seems all players above a certain level were given the exact same rewards, be they lvl 42 or 36, meaning the level 42 player got cheated out of 36->42 rewards, but also that the 36 player has likely been cheated out of a HUGE chunk of rewards compared to a new lvl 1 player just starting now

Laeuftbeidir

Thuran said:

In addition, the conversion screwed experienced players out of a LOT of potential rewards, as it seems all players above a certain level were given the exact same rewards, be they lvl 42 or 36, meaning the level 42 player got cheated out of 36->42 rewards, but also that the 36 player has likely been cheated out of a HUGE chunk of rewards compared to a new lvl 1 player just starting now

That's new to me? Sounds weird and very unfair.

Tremayne

I got positioned in level 41 and got a slew of prizes, but there was no real information about what I got and why, so I do not feel cheated, but I have no way of knowing if I have gotten what I was due or even if I have gotten more than I was due.

I’m not complaining because I am not in a position to know if a complaint is due. However, I am thoroughly confused now that more information trickles in from other players.

Mburn7

Laeuftbeidir said:

Thuran said:

In addition, the conversion screwed experienced players out of a LOT of potential rewards, as it seems all players above a certain level were given the exact same rewards, be they lvl 42 or 36, meaning the level 42 player got cheated out of 36->42 rewards, but also that the 36 player has likely been cheated out of a HUGE chunk of rewards compared to a new lvl 1 player just starting now

That's new to me? Sounds weird and very unfair.

I'm crunching all the numbers I can find now, but this is absolutely true.

EVERY PLAYER FROM LEVEL 28-40 GOT THE SAME AUTO-LEVEL REWARDS

Expect a longer, angrier post later when I get home from work and have a chance to review all my data.

Tremayne

Sigh 😔 

Unknown

This content has been removed.

TheDude1

I'm in the minority and this opinion is going to be incredibly unpopular, but I do not understand the idea that you "lost" or were "cheated" rewards here.  This isn't the same as a bug costing you rewards in an event, where an active problem screwed up the agreed-upon prize structure.  The prior structure was known, and you played it based on the rewards you received.  It was worth it to you to master without these leveling rewards in place - why complain now?

This was a one-time windfall, not an "earning" environment.  You didn't lose anything "earned" because it didn't exist.  They could have just as easily created the XP system and said "Hey we're doing this new thing going forward, here you go." and given nothing.

If you're complaining that "had I known" then you would never be happy with any change in this game because any change yields winners and losers.  Glitches like the HoD drop rate happen, planeswalkers go on sale, etc. - all of the complaints about not benefiting to the nth degree has a whiff of sour grapes. 

If they had implemented this with full rewards you would have people in the top levels basically being able to buy the whole next set for free, which would exacerbate the gap between the highest and lowest levels.  (It's also an incredibly poor way to run a business considering in-game currency is their sole revenue stream, and top-tier people are almost certainly the most likely to spend to acquire that currency.)  Giving nothing would create an uproar in the other direction.  The devs were in a no-win situation here.

This was a compromise to at least try balancing the effects of the change, because everyone agreed the mastery system need an update, but no one was going to be completely happy no matter how this was implemented.  If they said "we're now going to set an expiration on cards/mastery and drop sets from the catalog" there would be complaining about the time/energy/money expended in mastering those sets back in the day.

Going forward this structure has the potential to work a lot better than the prior mastery setup.  I completely agree the lack of transparency, with no notes on the update for this major overhaul, was incredibly frustrating.  The leveling basis is clear as mud right now, and having no explanation of how specific levels were determined given the implied math is borderline infuriating.  But to complain about being granted rewards that didn't exist for anyone until now, and were never promised?  That seems a step too far.

Mburn7

TheDude1 said:

I'm in the minority and this opinion is going to be incredibly unpopular, but I do not understand the idea that you "lost" or were "cheated" rewards here.  This isn't the same as a bug costing you rewards in an event, where an active problem screwed up the agreed-upon prize structure.  The prior structure was known, and you played it based on the rewards you received.  It was worth it to you to master without these leveling rewards in place - why complain now?

This was a one-time windfall, not an "earning" environment.  You didn't lose anything "earned" because it didn't exist.  They could have just as easily created the XP system and said "Hey we're doing this new thing going forward, here you go." and given nothing.

The issue isn't so much that we are "losing what we earned".

The issue is that the developers made a decision to punish players who had spent the time to master cards despite there being no real incentive to do so.

Leveling up from 39 to 40 gives 50 crystals, 15 jewels, and a Guaranteed non-dupe Legacy Rare Booster (the non dupe is speculation at this point, everything else is confirmed).

So because I started at level 40 instead of 39, I am not allowed to get those rewards?  How is that fair?

Leveling up from 28 to 40 gives hundreds of thousands of runes and at least a dozen Legacy Boosters, and that's only with a small percentage of the level rewards confirmed so far.  Why is someone who is just barely in Platinum being rewarded with this over someone who has been grinding away in Platinum for years?

In a vacuum I understand your point.  But the implementation of this is so punishing for such a large portion of the player base I cannot understand how it was done with anything other than malicious intent.  And that bothers me a lot.

TheDude1

Mburn7 said:

The issue is that the developers made a decision to punish players who had spent the time to master cards despite there being no real incentive to do so.

Leveling up from 39 to 40 gives 50 crystals, 15 jewels, and a Guaranteed non-dupe Legacy Rare Booster (the non dupe is speculation at this point, everything else is confirmed).

So because I started at level 40 instead of 39, I am not allowed to get those rewards?  How is that fair?

Leveling up from 28 to 40 gives hundreds of thousands of runes and at least a dozen Legacy Boosters, and that's only with a small percentage of the level rewards confirmed so far.  Why is someone who is just barely in Platinum being rewarded with this over someone who has been grinding away in Platinum for years?

In a vacuum I understand your point.  But the implementation of this is so punishing for such a large portion of the player base I cannot understand how it was done with anything other than malicious intent.  And that bothers me a lot.

I guess I'm not understanding the idea that you're being "punished" because you were content with mastering cards before this change.  There was something more worth an unknown 50 crystal/15 jewel prize (which, at your level, is all of 1.5 plays through Across Ixalan, far easier than this current structure).  There was no punishment here because it's a positive windfall - you weren't deprived or restricted from anything that was previously announced.

To your specific point about not getting the rewards from 39 to 40, it's completely fair because you made the decision to play/master cards when there were no rewards at stake.  It was worth it to you not to wait for something better, whether for earlier access to Platinum mastery (and all the rewards that came with it at the time) or deck completion for your own psyche.

This wasn't a bait-and-switch.  No one saw this coming, no one was promised anything, and no one could have gamed the system to take undue advantage.  It's a windfall, with rewards scaled so the top earn more than the bottom.  There may have been some attrition baked into the system that we don't know about (ie, Legacy counts less than standard, or sets >2 years old don't count or all, or something like that) to even out the distribution.  We don't know because it wasn't explained to us, which is why I completely agree on the lack of communication being wrong.  But assuming this is nothing but "malicious intent" is judgement on your part and reading far more into this implementation than is warranted.

And I'd really caution the "large portion of the player base" argument.  Most vocal perhaps, but you're talking about rewards for the top levels of the population by definition.  That is almost certainly a lot smaller portion than the massive base sub-40, or even likely sub-30.  Truth is neither of us know, and the forums aren't exactly representative.

OmegaLolrus

Mburn7 said:

Laeuftbeidir said:

Thuran said:

In addition, the conversion screwed experienced players out of a LOT of potential rewards, as it seems all players above a certain level were given the exact same rewards, be they lvl 42 or 36, meaning the level 42 player got cheated out of 36->42 rewards, but also that the 36 player has likely been cheated out of a HUGE chunk of rewards compared to a new lvl 1 player just starting now

That's new to me? Sounds weird and very unfair.

I'm crunching all the numbers I can find now, but this is absolutely true.

EVERY PLAYER FROM LEVEL 28-40 GOT THE SAME AUTO-LEVEL REWARDS

Expect a longer, angrier post later when I get home from work and have a chance to review all my data.

The answer's probably lurking around somewhere, but lemme ask this:

Has anyone leveled above 28 after the patch? Are we sure that there are rewards for 28 to 40-whatever?

I've seen situations in other games where they just... don't have high level rewards implemented.

Brakkis

TheDude1 said:

Mburn7 said:

The issue is that the developers made a decision to punish players who had spent the time to master cards despite there being no real incentive to do so.

Leveling up from 39 to 40 gives 50 crystals, 15 jewels, and a Guaranteed non-dupe Legacy Rare Booster (the non dupe is speculation at this point, everything else is confirmed).

So because I started at level 40 instead of 39, I am not allowed to get those rewards?  How is that fair?

Leveling up from 28 to 40 gives hundreds of thousands of runes and at least a dozen Legacy Boosters, and that's only with a small percentage of the level rewards confirmed so far.  Why is someone who is just barely in Platinum being rewarded with this over someone who has been grinding away in Platinum for years?

In a vacuum I understand your point.  But the implementation of this is so punishing for such a large portion of the player base I cannot understand how it was done with anything other than malicious intent.  And that bothers me a lot.

I guess I'm not understanding the idea that you're being "punished" because you were content with mastering cards before this change.  There was something more worth an unknown 50 crystal/15 jewel prize (which, at your level, is all of 1.5 plays through Across Ixalan, far easier than this current structure).  There was no punishment here because it's a positive windfall - you weren't deprived or restricted from anything that was previously announced.

To your specific point about not getting the rewards from 39 to 40, it's completely fair because you made the decision to play/master cards when there were no rewards at stake.  It was worth it to you not to wait for something better, whether for earlier access to Platinum mastery (and all the rewards that came with it at the time) or deck completion for your own psyche.

This wasn't a bait-and-switch.  No one saw this coming, no one was promised anything, and no one could have gamed the system to take undue advantage.  It's a windfall, with rewards scaled so the top earn more than the bottom.  There may have been some attrition baked into the system that we don't know about (ie, Legacy counts less than standard, or sets >2 years old don't count or all, or something like that) to even out the distribution.  We don't know because it wasn't explained to us, which is why I completely agree on the lack of communication being wrong.  But assuming this is nothing but "malicious intent" is judgement on your part and reading far more into this implementation than is warranted.

And I'd really caution the "large portion of the player base" argument.  Most vocal perhaps, but you're talking about rewards for the top levels of the population by definition.  That is almost certainly a lot smaller portion than the massive base sub-40, or even likely sub-30.  Truth is neither of us know, and the forums aren't exactly representative.

There's a whole lot of words here attempting to justify something that is just inherently wrong.

It's a matter of impartiality.

If the rewards are, for example (I don't know what each level entails)
Level 1 -10: 1000 runes, 5 crystals (for each level)
Level 11 - 20: 2000 runes, 10 crystals
Level 21 - 30: 3000 runes, 15 crystals
Level 31 - 40: 4000 runes, 20 crystals, 5 jewels

Say you retroactively accumulated enough experience to start at 36. You should then retroactively acquire the reward of each level from 1 to 36 when the system is implemented. Not the rewards from levels 1 to 20 and the rewards for 21 to 36 just vanish.

Whether longer players were penalized or the system was just poorly implemented - I'm leaning towards the latter given this companies... history - it always comes back to impartiality. No one should be penalized for "Hey, you started sooner, you did more, you get less". 

Mburn7

OmegaLolrus said:

Mburn7 said:

Laeuftbeidir said:

Thuran said:

In addition, the conversion screwed experienced players out of a LOT of potential rewards, as it seems all players above a certain level were given the exact same rewards, be they lvl 42 or 36, meaning the level 42 player got cheated out of 36->42 rewards, but also that the 36 player has likely been cheated out of a HUGE chunk of rewards compared to a new lvl 1 player just starting now

That's new to me? Sounds weird and very unfair.

I'm crunching all the numbers I can find now, but this is absolutely true.

EVERY PLAYER FROM LEVEL 28-40 GOT THE SAME AUTO-LEVEL REWARDS

Expect a longer, angrier post later when I get home from work and have a chance to review all my data.

The answer's probably lurking around somewhere, but lemme ask this:

Has anyone leveled above 28 after the patch? Are we sure that there are rewards for 28 to 40-whatever?

I've seen situations in other games where they just... don't have high level rewards implemented.

Yup.  There are rewards.  So far just runes and Legacy Boosters (except for the jump from 39 to 40), but my list is far from complete (for example I'm missing 29 to 30, which would shed some important insight on how they organized the rewards).

TheDude1

Brakkis said:

There's a whole lot of words here attempting to justify something that is just inherently wrong.

.
.
.

Whether longer players were penalized or the system was just poorly implemented - I'm leaning towards the latter given this companies... history - it always comes back to impartiality. No one should be penalized for "Hey, you started sooner, you did more, you get less". 

The core of the disagreement seems to be that with any going-forward change the rewards must be applied retroactively in full.  If you believe that, then the update is a penalty; if not, it's a bonus.  I tend toward the latter because retroactive rewards are by definition never promised, and there is always some aspect of personal benefit for those who acted before they were granted.

My opinion is that these rewards are not so egregiously "unfair" to warrant the criticism they've received.  I'm willing to bet (with acknowledged absence of data) most of the people sub-30 that would stand to benefit from this new system aren't going to realize those benefits anyway - there's a reason they're sub-30 after 2.5 years of available gameplay, and it likely wasn't that they weren't incented enough to play to that level.