Mr. Fantastic (Reed Richards) Character Rework (1/9/19)

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  • Moon Roach
    Moon Roach Posts: 2,863 Chairperson of the Boards
    @Brigby, any chance you could pull together the usage figures for all characters for 2018?  You can just PM them to me, no need to post them here.
  • sambrookjm
    sambrookjm Posts: 2,163 Chairperson of the Boards
    Moon Roach said:
    @Brigby, any chance you could pull together the usage figures for all characters for 2018?  You can just PM them to me, no need to post them here.
    Or put them in their own thread, as I"m sure lots of folks would be interested in this.  I know I would be.

    Just wait until after the January contest is over, of course. :smile:
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    Brigby said:
    Spudgutter said:
    Thanks for the response and initial info.  Any peek behind the curtain is appreciated.  Any chance for a smaller, more (assumedly) better time frame?  Like the last six months of 2017?  

    And maybe even include the entire 4* tier?

    I have no problems with rebalances, and can understand some may see each as positive or negative, as evidenced in this thread.  But what i, and others, would really love to see, is maybe an explanation.  
    Unfortunately, at the moment I'm unaware as to how to separate the data based on a specific star tier, as opposed to individual characters, but I can certainly show the last six months of 2017 for Thing, Invisible Woman, and Mr. Fantastic.

    6/1/17 - 12/31/17
    • Thing - 2,924,119
    • Invisible Woman - 2,909,663
    • Mr. Fantastic - 1,882,239
    Now to be fair, I do want to give credit to those that mentioned the effect that event-featured characters have on usage rates, so please note that these are high-level values without any granular breakdowns involved. This is simply the information I have available at a given notice.

    Hope this helps!
    Pr0spect0r said:
    Then again to be fair it's not his job as community manager to dig through those numbers and analyze them completely for our use.
    That's true, but if I have the capability to provide some clarity, then I'm certainly not opposed to gathering some quick data for everyone.
    Thanks a lot, that is a Fantastic breakdown for us.

    That is very telling information indeed, and food for thought.
  • Dormammu
    Dormammu Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    It's interesting to me how much Baglady gets used over Reed. I never use her unless she's essential. Not that she's a bad character, Sue certainly has utility, but she doesn't have the synergy Reed enjoys with several teams.

    Then again, Sue was like the second or third 4-star ever released, so her roster penetration is probably much higher.
  • RickOShay
    RickOShay Posts: 452 Mover and Shaker
    edited January 2019
    Keep in mind, Thing is the only one of the 3 who has covers fed from a 2* onto a 3* (Torch/Torch/Thing).
    Invisible Woman and Mr. F are only 'fed' from Doom and 3* Panther respectively. Therefore, basic to mid-level players are much more -likely- to have Things to play with, padding his stats potentially above where competitive players would choose to use him.
  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards
    How about an in-depth analysis:

    8 Blue (Flexibility) - Stun for 3 turns and deal 3,498 for every 4 friendly specials. If paired with Cardusa, which naturally produces blue that they don't need, you can have regular stuns with 7k damage.  That sounds really good.  If you pair with a blue generator, like Vulture or IM40, you just get a 3 turn stun for 8 AP, which is mediocre.  If you used a 1*Storm TU at level 5 for 32 Attack tiles, then it turns into a nuke for 28K, so the stun probably doesn't matter, but it would cost 9 TU AP and 8 Blue AP for a monster nuke.  So, in the right situation, this power is great, otherwise it's meh.  I do miss the tile swapping.

    0 Yellow - Match enemy special and burst most damaged ally for 669; every 4 enemy special matches, fire a random power for free.  If paired with Cardusa, you get 3 extra AP and this little burst when matching enemy attack tiles.  Not bad, but not amazing either.  Firing a random power for free (every 4 turns?) sounds awesome actually.......it being either Hair Meddle, Imaginaut, Flexibility, Carnage Rules or Symbiote Scythes.  Carnage Rules isn't that disruptive at level 3, and burst healing should soften ally damage from Symbiote Scythes.  Firing the other powers for free would be great. Of course, this power works against any special tile spammers, but it shines with Cardusa.  Medusa, Hawkguy and Mr. F against tile spammers sounds fun, even though they overlap colors.  If you played Medusa, Mr. F and Chavez against tile spammers (like Carnage), then this could just fire off Hair Meddle, Flexibility or Imaginaut for free.  With Chavez and a 5* with 3 Active Colors, then this has a 60% chance of firing a free 5* power. 

    10 Black (Imaginaut) - Create 2-turn fortified black repeater that either makes specials, charged tiles, locked tiles or generates 3 AP in Strongest. This is a high price for a random effect, which is delayed 2 turns before doing anything.  Creating some good specials is certainly the best effect.  Locking tiles is disruptive to me; charged tiles may not benefit me; and gaining 3 AP in Strongest may not help me (especially with Cardusa where Medusa is probably the highest level, so I would get 3 Yellow, which is useless).  So, there's a 50% chance for a good effect, after collecting 10 Black and waiting 2 turns.  That just sounds really bad.  In a very long match, the specials could build up though (like Emma's yellow).  There's a 20% chance it could fire for free with Cardusa, but I wouldn't bank on it. 

    Overall, I still think this is a nerf because his utility has shrunken.  It's a smaller niche now, as someone else had said.  There's certainly great potential paired with Cardusa and some Storm TUs.  There's possibilities with Chavez and a 5* against tile spammers, but I'm predicting after people play with him for fun, his usage will be lesser than before.  He really has just 2 good powers now, which are highly situational. 
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,454 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2019
    I wonder how he plays with Flaptain? I may test it out lol. Special spam on yellow, passive blue, red nuke. 

    *edit* ran this team with a champ Flaptain and a champ ghost rider against a random grockamora team in sim with my lvl 209 reed. It didn’t work lol. Then I went back in and took reed/EB Venom (5/5/2 lvl70)/ and Kraven up against a 3* team that came up- that went much better lol. I never used him before so I don’t have anything to compare to. I will say the tile locks look like sue’s Force bubbles more than bag-man’s locks. Do they function like that?
  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,236 Chairperson of the Boards
    Dormammu said:
    It's interesting to me how much Baglady gets used over Reed. I never use her unless she's essential. Not that she's a bad character, Sue certainly has utility, but she doesn't have the synergy Reed enjoys with several teams.

    Then again, Sue was like the second or third 4-star ever released, so her roster penetration is probably much higher.
    One thing to note. In the daily resupply list you get 3 Sue covers in year 1 (day 365). I remember when I started playing I was playing fairly casually for the first year and so I had 3 covers of Sue, Devil Dino and X-Force Wolvie. That was pretty much my only 4* characters at that time (roster slots hard to come by) so I was using them as lot as meat shields. I wonder if a lot of new players who are playing casually are doing the same as I was which is why her usage metrics are so high.

    KGB
  • MrEd95
    MrEd95 Posts: 280 Mover and Shaker
    Just used him with im40 and dazzler. That was fun
  • ZommyGD
    ZommyGD Posts: 79 Match Maker
    It’s a nerf.
    Mr. F is Mr. F again!
  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,733 Chairperson of the Boards
    After playing with him, I'm not a fan of the cost of his black power, but he can be fun. I think the main issue is that, for 5* players, his blue actually made him useful in certain situations and now he's back into the pile of characters that just don't help enough ever. 
  • mega ghost
    mega ghost Posts: 1,156 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2019
    I love these changes and I think some of y'all just want to be mad. First and foremost, these updates change him from being a bland, niche defensive character to a versatile character that is actually FUN and that I want to play. I've had him champed for ages and I can never bring myself to use him, even when he's featured. The only time I actively select him and find him useful is during the Kaecillus fight we get once every month and a half or so. Hardly a reason to keep him as-is.

    His old blue? Decent stun. The tile swap mechanic was a nice bonus, but nothing special. Now it's a decent stun with good to great damage added on if you're fighting with special tile creators or have your Imaginaut out.

    His old yellow? Useless outside of one defensive team. Now it still has that benefit, but also is amazing against anyone that creates special tiles. I'm finally looking forward to fighting Ultron sentries. This is a great change. I don't understand how so many can't see how good it is.

    His old black? I wanted it to be good, but it was always a waste. I'd chase matches to get ok damage, and most of the time it would just get matched away. His new black? Sure, it's random effects, but the effects are actually pretty good and happen every other turn. Plus they feed his blue and it has staying power.

    I'm very excited and I'm looking forward to figuring out teams for him.


  • JHawkInc
    JHawkInc Posts: 2,605 Chairperson of the Boards
    Brigby said:
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    I wonder how he plays with Flaptain? I may test it out lol. Special spam on yellow, passive blue, red nuke. 

    *edit* ran this team with a champ Flaptain and a champ ghost rider against a random grockamora team in sim with my lvl 209 reed. It didn’t work lol. Then I went back in and took reed/EB Venom (5/5/2 lvl70)/ and Kraven up against a 3* team that came up- that went much better lol. I never used him before so I don’t have anything to compare to. I will say the tile locks look like sue’s Force bubbles more than bag-man’s locks. Do they function like that?
    Just did some testing with Mr. Fantastic and Invisible Woman on the same team. It would appear that the Locked tiles Mr. Fantastic's Imaginaut tile creates DO synergize with Invisible Woman's Green "Force Field Crush" ability.
    1. "Imaginaut" creates Locked tiles.
    2. Activate "Force Field Crush"
    3. Locked tiles are removed, and the enemy is dealt damage.
    I tested it too, he definitely creates those Force Bubbles when he locks tiles (instead of one of the other lock-tile effects). Definitely makes Imaginaut a little more useful.

    Still, it's slow, and it'd be nicer if you had some control over the random effect (maybe like Pumpkin Bombs for Green Goblin, pick a color, and different color Imaginaut tiles do different things? even if it's semi-random, like Black Imaginaut repeaters lock tiles or make protects, and Blue ones make protects and charged tiles, and Green ones make charge tiles and attacks, etc, so each color has two possible outcomes, so the power is kept in check by a bit of randomness, but it's a 1/2 chance you get what you want, instead of 1/6; it would also be cooler having multiple different color Imaginaut tiles out this way).

    Ultimately, I like the idea behind the change, but this feels like something that's only 80% of the way ready to be implemented in the game. I don't really see this increasing the usage of Mr Fantastic, you know?
  • jamesh
    jamesh Posts: 1,600 Chairperson of the Boards
    A few thoughts after mulling over the changes a bit more:
    1. Mr F's old design seemed to be about extending matches through healing and fortified protect tiles.  That both gave you more time to use powers and acted as a deterrent for others attacking you.  That seems to mostly be gone with the healing scaled back massively, and protect tile generation being random.
    2. Outside of teaming him with characters that produce enemy special tiles (e.g. Carnage, Venom), the effectiveness of his new yellow is strongly dependent on the enemy team.  If I'm attacking a Mr F, I just need to pick a team that doesn't overly depend on special tiles and I can mostly ignore his heal.
    3. If you look at his blue purely as a stun, then it seems overpriced compared to e.g. Gamora or Iceman.  Quantising the damage component on multiples of 4 special tiles makes me think the AI will quite often fire it without the required specials.  I wonder if this was intended, or if they just thought it was a cute way to include the number "4" in the power?
    4. He seems even less self sufficient than before.  Previously Imaginaut was his primary damage ability, which you could fire off after 3 black matches, and maybe get extra damage from 50% of matches after that.  Now you need 4 black matches to fire Imaginaut (1 special), then wait 2 turns and hope it procs 3 more specials (although it more than likely won't), then fire blue.  Assuming all Imaginaut effects are equal probability, the power averages out to generating two thirds of a special tile each turn, so it could take a while.
    5. On the bright side, casting Imaginaut multiple times stacks the effects unlike the old version.  However, the increased power cost means this would happen even later in the match, if at all.
    So all up, he seems even more situational than before.  If the aim was to fix the fact that he is the least used FF member, then I don't see this as a successful rebalance.
  • wingX
    wingX Posts: 253 Mover and Shaker
    For his blue ability, I think it will be better if there is also a counter for the amount of special tiles on the board so that you don't need to count. Will be good for all those power that depend the number of special tiles on board.
    This new MrF's blue ability can also work well with 3*Storm.

  • furbear00000
    furbear00000 Posts: 188 Tile Toppler
    I’m going to attempt to put a positive spin on this unnessesary “re-balance”. 

    All Reed really lost was his tile swap which was replaced with free power activation, which is nice to have. If you’re playing against Strange or Chavez, you don’t use AP or get punished for using any powers. 

    Reed has always been a situational character from the start and this rebalance didn’t change that. He was and still is very useful against special tile producers and still works very well with Carnage and Medusa, in my opinion a little better than before because his blue can hit hard now, harder than his black ever used to. 

    Anyways that’s my 2 cents. I’ll still be using Reed like I used to before. 

    I do wish they would have spent their time better fixed units that need actual fixing. There are so many. 
  • Gold_Dragon
    Gold_Dragon Posts: 101 Tile Toppler
    I’m gonna check it out the rebalance soon but I used before and I loved Loved LOVED using him with Shuri. Omg. They went together PERFECTLY. Put them with 5* DD and it’s a slaughterhouse. It was one of my favorite teams.

     Now I look at it and.... I really don’t see who he goes with yet. It looks like a bunch of nerfs. His blue is a nerf guys. Anytime you take away board control, it’s a nerf. His blue was beautiful with 5*DD. Heaven forbid Imaginaut was on the field and you matched two green tiles. The health bars would just melt. Now..... I’m pretty much gonna have to either team him up 4* Venom (Eddie) and Kraven or Cardusa (which people were doing anyway). For a power called Flexibility, he sure lost a bunch of it. 

    His yellow wasn’t great and it’s still not as you’re trying to get 4 enemy tile matches. The free power makes it better, potentially but it also means you’re either with Venom/Kraven, Cardusa, or..... bust?

    Imaginaut’s only problem to me was that it didn’t do a lot of damage. But when you teamed him with DD and Shuri, you could see why it did the damage it did. If it did good damage, that team would be stupid broken. Now.... I really have to look at it. It looks like a lame version of MEH’s yellow power. I don’t know a lot of people who like random powers activating. 

     Gonna try him out and report back. 
  • MarcusGraves
    MarcusGraves Posts: 495 Mover and Shaker
    edited January 2019
    Blue: This just stinks, it's like you guys tried to make his powers more support based, but then went ahead and ruined what was a PERFECTLY good support ability and splashed in garbage damage on it. I'm going to really rip on this change because you guys for some reason ALWAYS do this to powers in reworks and I never understand why you think changes like this are good. A 7 cost 3 turn stun that dumped out 2 fortified 270 protect tiles was totally fine. I really think you guys changed it cause of the Bishop interaction which is honestly really silly considering we have a character like 4* Rocket and Groot running around with explosive damage combos.

    Yellow: This is surprisingly fine, free power casts are good off of enemy special tile matching, less healing is whatever since Medusa already covers this effect in spades.

    Black: Simply overpriced power, gathering 10 black and then having to wait 2 turns to finally get an effect is too slow, needs to be an 8 cost power at the least. This is obviously his most important power so thank god you guys at least kept it with the ability to fortify on cast, because 4* Black Panther has similar importance on his yellow power and yet you chose to (and still haven't changed for some reason) not have it be fortified on cast which easily brings the character to a grinding halt when it ends up in a bad spot and just get's matched away/blown up.

    If it sounds like I'm being overly critical and mean, it's because a lot of the changes you guys put in (or don't) is simply at this point very frustrating.
  • ammenell
    ammenell Posts: 817 Critical Contributor
    Brigby said:
    UNC_Samurai said:
    BlackBoltRocks said:
    We’ll. We’ll need to find someone else to use against Kaecilius.
    Yeah, there was ZERO reason to tweak his Blue, it was his one good power.

    Why do they over-think almost every rework by messing with the powers that don't need fixing?
    You could always use Agent Coulson, if you're looking for another 4-Star that can swap tiles? You even get the benefit of those tiles becoming Charged too!
    we could just ban Reed. 
    i mean, we already have coulson for tile swapping. 

    Let's rework gamora, too.
    make her blue cost 7ap, and trash the stun, just producing random special tiles.
    there are still other 4*s who can stun. 

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