The elusive 5* Carol

Vhailorx

GrimSkald said:

Vhailorx said:

and re: kitty, obviously her yellow passive is the number 1 reason she gets a lot of usage.  but is her red passive at all helpful too?  I have found it to be mildly irritating the few times I have played her in PVP.  And passively removing 1 special tile every turn is a useful ability (if not quite so crazy as original 5* gambit's special tile defense).  It seems like it might be her second best attribute.

Her red isn't really a passive - it places a CD tile that acts like a passive.  The problem with it is that it's a combination of three different factors - you need to have had 6 red ap to place the CD, the CD needs to survive, and your opponent needs to inflict damage via a power.  Versus Medusa and BB it works really well, otherwise you need good timing to get any value out of it at all.  It's so situational - I put it close to "almost useless."

Her purple passive is solid, actually, it's just not the thing that makes her top tier.

Oops, I think I was confusing her purple and red.  I was talking about her repeater that overwrites enemy special tiles.  That seems useful.

Vhailorx

HoundofShadow said:

Another 4-5 days and everyone will know how good Captain Marvel is.

I suspect it could be a 3-turn repeater at 3 covers and 2-turns at 4 or 5 covers. It would be surprising if it's a 1-turn repeater at 5 covers, which I believe will be unprecedented. 

Or unless the repeaters belong to Talos... 

I think the only 1 turn repeaters are legacy tiles like 3* blade, torch, and 4* grocket that all launched as CD powers.  Well, and now magik

MoosePrime

Vhailorx said:

HoundofShadow said:

Another 4-5 days and everyone will know how good Captain Marvel is.

I suspect it could be a 3-turn repeater at 3 covers and 2-turns at 4 or 5 covers. It would be surprising if it's a 1-turn repeater at 5 covers, which I believe will be unprecedented. 

Or unless the repeaters belong to Talos... 

I think the only 1 turn repeaters are legacy tiles like 3* blade, torch, and 4* grocket that all launched as CD powers.  Well, and now magik

5* Ghost Rider has 1 turn repeaters at 5 covers (his green power)

Straycat

We have been asking for a character that can speed up repeaters, maybe thats her thing. Like 4* Carol was to countdowns, maybe she benefits from having a bunch of repeaters around.

Vhailorx

Straycat said:

We have been asking for a character that can speed up repeaters, maybe thats her thing. Like 4* Carol was to countdowns, maybe she benefits from having a bunch of repeaters around.

Huh, interesting thought.

What would it take for a Carol power that speed up repeaters to make 5* Loki worthwhile?

Would something like 4* Carol (i e. 5ap to proc one repeater) be enough?  Could she passively lower the timer on repeaters when she makes a match (like flaptain)? Or maybe proc one whenever you cast a friendly power?

That last option would make Loki's green a lot better (free 8k aoe and boardshake whenever you cast a power? Not too bad.), although at 11ap with no battery it's still not top tier.

Yepyep

Straycat said:

We have been asking for a character that can speed up repeaters, maybe thats her thing. Like 4* Carol was to countdowns, maybe she benefits from having a bunch of repeaters around.

That’s exactly what I’ve been thinking while reading this discussion. Multiple repeaters, speeds up repeaters, converts repeaters to countdowns — something along those lines. A riff on C4rol. 

Warbringa

Daredevil217 said:

Good discussion! I’ll just reply to some comments in general. 


- It’s possible that those hoarding for some fantasy next big thing will regret missing the actual next big thing if they hoard through Kitty. She will be undoubtedly part of a future meta.
 

Kitty is really good now and meta at this point, unless they bring out a character that nerfs opponent tiles or destroys them easily, then she is no longer meta as her only real great ability is her tile buffing.  She is only meta as well due to Grocket's tiles, without them she is really only mid tier.  

Daredevil217

Warbringa said:

Daredevil217 said:

Good discussion! I’ll just reply to some comments in general. 


- It’s possible that those hoarding for some fantasy next big thing will regret missing the actual next big thing if they hoard through Kitty. She will be undoubtedly part of a future meta.
 

Kitty is really good now and meta at this point, unless they bring out a character that nerfs opponent tiles or destroys them easily, then she is no longer meta as her only real great ability is her tile buffing.  She is only meta as well due to Grocket's tiles, without them she is really only mid tier.  

I did say “PART of a future meta”. And she is

edit: I’ll add as well that my point was basically “a bird in the hand”. We KNOW Kitty is good. And those who hoarded through her for someone one who MIGHT be good (but probably won’t be) may end up kicking themselves is all I’m saying. 

tiomono

Warbringa said:

Daredevil217 said:

Good discussion! I’ll just reply to some comments in general. 


- It’s possible that those hoarding for some fantasy next big thing will regret missing the actual next big thing if they hoard through Kitty. She will be undoubtedly part of a future meta.
 

Kitty is really good now and meta at this point, unless they bring out a character that nerfs opponent tiles or destroys them easily, then she is no longer meta as her only real great ability is her tile buffing.  She is only meta as well due to Grocket's tiles, without them she is really only mid tier.  

Black suit spidey is already out. He nerfs attack tiles. Thor has silly board shake which destroys tiles faster. Kitty herself counters kitty by removing specials every turn. Being best teamed with a 4* also hurts her, and she is still meta.

Nothing is going to stop her from being meta besides a straight nerf.

Vhailorx

tiomono said:

Warbringa said:

Daredevil217 said:

Good discussion! I’ll just reply to some comments in general. 


- It’s possible that those hoarding for some fantasy next big thing will regret missing the actual next big thing if they hoard through Kitty. She will be undoubtedly part of a future meta.
 

Kitty is really good now and meta at this point, unless they bring out a character that nerfs opponent tiles or destroys them easily, then she is no longer meta as her only real great ability is her tile buffing.  She is only meta as well due to Grocket's tiles, without them she is really only mid tier.  

Black suit spidey is already out. He nerfs attack tiles. Thor has silly board shake which destroys tiles faster. Kitty herself counters kitty by removing specials every turn. Being best teamed with a 4* also hurts her, and she is still meta.

Nothing is going to stop her from being meta besides a straight nerf.

Yes and no. She is not "best" when paired with a 4*.  She is "only meta because one 4* passively starts every match with enough strikes to proc her passive immediately." Without the ability to begin boosting strikes on round 2, she is *just* a good support character (but not as good as okoye). 

If you removed * grocket from the game, the net effect woild be a huge Nerf to kitty without changing anything about her.

GrimSkald

tiomono said:

Warbringa said:

Daredevil217 said:

Good discussion! I’ll just reply to some comments in general. 


- It’s possible that those hoarding for some fantasy next big thing will regret missing the actual next big thing if they hoard through Kitty. She will be undoubtedly part of a future meta.
 

Kitty is really good now and meta at this point, unless they bring out a character that nerfs opponent tiles or destroys them easily, then she is no longer meta as her only real great ability is her tile buffing.  She is only meta as well due to Grocket's tiles, without them she is really only mid tier.  

Black suit spidey is already out. He nerfs attack tiles. Thor has silly board shake which destroys tiles faster. Kitty herself counters kitty by removing specials every turn. Being best teamed with a 4* also hurts her, and she is still meta.

Nothing is going to stop her from being meta besides a straight nerf.

This is not untrue, but I don't think she's the top of the meta, I think that's still Thorkoye.  I like climbing with Gritty because it definitely lessens how much I get attacked, but I have yet to hop with Gritty.  The risk is too high - if there's a bad cascade and too many of your strike tiles get wiped out early then you're either going to lose or it's going to be a very long match - it doesn't even really matter what team you're facing.  The only thing that team has going for it is the initial strike tile dump - otherwise it's a really slow team.  If you have all three slots you can mitigate this (bring JJ, OML, or Cable,) but as a two-person team it's good, but risky.

The reason most people leave that team alone is also odds-based - if you take on the team enough sooner or later it's going to wipe you unless you're bringing BSSM.

Vhailorx said:

Oops, I think I was confusing her purple and red.  I was talking about her repeater that overwrites enemy special tiles.  That seems useful.

Fair enough.   It's a solid power - she reminds me of the many, many hours I used to play 3* Sam before they started doing weekly boosts.  It's got some added benefit that it causes damage if there's nothing to hit.  Overall, it's great against some teams, useless against others - it does very little against Thorkoye for example.  All in all, I'd say if you break down all of Kitty's separate powers her yellow passive is flat out fantastic if you build the team around it, her purple is a solid good (but not great,) her active yellow is mediocre (you want to use it if you dip below the "buff" threshold, but otherwise you probably don't since having only strikes speeds things up,) and her red is nearly useless.

Vhailorx

GrimSkald said:

tiomono said:

Warbringa said:

Daredevil217 said:

Good discussion! I’ll just reply to some comments in general. 


- It’s possible that those hoarding for some fantasy next big thing will regret missing the actual next big thing if they hoard through Kitty. She will be undoubtedly part of a future meta.
 

Kitty is really good now and meta at this point, unless they bring out a character that nerfs opponent tiles or destroys them easily, then she is no longer meta as her only real great ability is her tile buffing.  She is only meta as well due to Grocket's tiles, without them she is really only mid tier.  

Black suit spidey is already out. He nerfs attack tiles. Thor has silly board shake which destroys tiles faster. Kitty herself counters kitty by removing specials every turn. Being best teamed with a 4* also hurts her, and she is still meta.

Nothing is going to stop her from being meta besides a straight nerf.

This is not untrue, but I don't think she's the top of the meta, I think that's still Thorkoye.  I like climbing with Gritty because it definitely lessens how much I get attacked, but I have yet to hop with Gritty.  The risk is too high - if there's a bad cascade and too many of your strike tiles get wiped out early then you're either going to lose or it's going to be a very long match - it doesn't even really matter what team you're facing.  The only thing that team has going for it is the initial strike tile dump - otherwise it's a really slow team.  If you have all three slots you can mitigate this (bring JJ, OML, or Cable,) but as a two-person team it's good, but risky.

The reason most people leave that team alone is also odds-based - if you take on the team enough sooner or later it's going to wipe you unless you're bringing BSSM.

Vhailorx said:

Oops, I think I was confusing her purple and red.  I was talking about her repeater that overwrites enemy special tiles.  That seems useful.

Fair enough.   It's a solid power - she reminds me of the many, many hours I used to play 3* Sam before they started doing weekly boosts.  It's got some added benefit that it causes damage if there's nothing to hit.  Overall, it's great against some teams, useless against others - it does very little against Thorkoye for example.  All in all, I'd say if you break down all of Kitty's separate powers her yellow passive is flat out fantastic if you build the team around it, her purple is a solid good (but not great,) her active yellow is mediocre (you want to use it if you dip below the "buff" threshold, but otherwise you probably don't since having only strikes speeds things up,) and her red is nearly useless.

That sounds about right to me.  In a grocket-less world, she is a slightly worse support character than okoye.  Not as good as around, but she would arguably have an edge wherever you knew that there would be tons of special tiles.  With grocket, she becomes one of the fastest characters in the game and therefore part of the meta.

Richyyy

Vhailorx said:

GrimSkald said:

tiomono said:

Warbringa said:

Daredevil217 said:

Good discussion! I’ll just reply to some comments in general. 


- It’s possible that those hoarding for some fantasy next big thing will regret missing the actual next big thing if they hoard through Kitty. She will be undoubtedly part of a future meta.
 

Kitty is really good now and meta at this point, unless they bring out a character that nerfs opponent tiles or destroys them easily, then she is no longer meta as her only real great ability is her tile buffing.  She is only meta as well due to Grocket's tiles, without them she is really only mid tier.  

Black suit spidey is already out. He nerfs attack tiles. Thor has silly board shake which destroys tiles faster. Kitty herself counters kitty by removing specials every turn. Being best teamed with a 4* also hurts her, and she is still meta.

Nothing is going to stop her from being meta besides a straight nerf.

This is not untrue, but I don't think she's the top of the meta, I think that's still Thorkoye.  I like climbing with Gritty because it definitely lessens how much I get attacked, but I have yet to hop with Gritty.  The risk is too high - if there's a bad cascade and too many of your strike tiles get wiped out early then you're either going to lose or it's going to be a very long match - it doesn't even really matter what team you're facing.  The only thing that team has going for it is the initial strike tile dump - otherwise it's a really slow team.  If you have all three slots you can mitigate this (bring JJ, OML, or Cable,) but as a two-person team it's good, but risky.

The reason most people leave that team alone is also odds-based - if you take on the team enough sooner or later it's going to wipe you unless you're bringing BSSM.

Vhailorx said:

Oops, I think I was confusing her purple and red.  I was talking about her repeater that overwrites enemy special tiles.  That seems useful.

Fair enough.   It's a solid power - she reminds me of the many, many hours I used to play 3* Sam before they started doing weekly boosts.  It's got some added benefit that it causes damage if there's nothing to hit.  Overall, it's great against some teams, useless against others - it does very little against Thorkoye for example.  All in all, I'd say if you break down all of Kitty's separate powers her yellow passive is flat out fantastic if you build the team around it, her purple is a solid good (but not great,) her active yellow is mediocre (you want to use it if you dip below the "buff" threshold, but otherwise you probably don't since having only strikes speeds things up,) and her red is nearly useless.

That sounds about right to me.  In a grocket-less world, she is a slightly worse support character than okoye.  Not as good as around, but she would arguably have an edge wherever you knew that there would be tons of special tiles.  With grocket, she becomes one of the fastest characters in the game and therefore part of the meta.

And to swing us back around to the topic, that'd be the safest way to push 5* Carol into the meta if they really want to ensure that - make her drop tiles immediately that make her the 5* partner for Kitty. Gritty is already so fast that if they think they can do it with a repeater tile, or even a dirt-cheap power or second-turn drop, they're wrong. But if she did something like drop two strike, two attack and two shield tiles at the start of the fight - as long as they were strong enough - it might be worth bringing her instead of Grocket.

gentgeen

purplemur said:

She is well represented at every level, except for 1* which I really think they need more 1+2*'s -They need to back em up with a champion system, replayable Prolouge, and challenge modes but the first add should be 1* Cap'n
I use 2* Marvel w/ Okoye to create TU cascades and her Sonic Boom rocks em like a Guile corner trap(again and again) 
If 3* Captain Marvel had her scaling on energy absorption fixed so that she doesn't get worse as her levels go up and let her absorb off friendly fire then she would get as much use as Hawkguy/Cyclops/hood for the AP Gen(5Red3BLack!!). Her shield destruction often gets overlooked and her stun is one of the best for 3*. I wouldn't say she is good but she gets a decent amount of usage from 2/3 newbs that are getting her from the early farm. I remember her as one of my first and highest champs and used to do a strange/Carol float to save on healthpacks. she's not nuthin
4* is just simply the best in her class. 
5* : she will have this cool unique tile called a Storm tile... 
 I think she will have some passive decrease to CD/Repeater tiles, some overpriced splodey Carol Corps showin up and fattens your lip kinda move like Fury/Cap'n/Spider-ham; or a carol corps interactive ability like Lockjaw.  I think there will be an insane nuke but with something along the lines of if Captain Marvel has taken X amount of damage this turn, then Deal Y+Y damage. I think she will be good for transition players because the others all are. I think they will give her numbers some beef and make her easy to use because I just gotta believe that they just gotta know the difference between booty garbage like Falcap/Bucky and hawt chase like Vulture/America. I just gotta believe they know, deep down after the group meeting by themselves at their desk know that Emma Frost is not of equivalent quality as Carol Danvers. and they saving the good stuff for her, they want to make her good. 
However she won't be meta unless she messes with the manapool. maaaayyyybe if her nuke is real cheap and fast

So I would like to see a 5/1 release:
 Brie Larson 1* version to guide you through the new updated prolouge!
Monic Rambeau 1982 5* Captain Marvel to rule them all!

I was gonna say similar ...  I would love to see a 5* and 1* dual release.  Lets get Carol in all the tiers (Only Peter Parker has that distinction currently)  


And since they already have said that Brie will be a 5*, we can have a "Ms. Marvel - Original"  .... Just like Peter.

randomhero1090

@gentgeen I like the 1/5 idea as well. Why not!

tiomono

Vhailorx said:

tiomono said:

Warbringa said:

Daredevil217 said:

Good discussion! I’ll just reply to some comments in general. 


- It’s possible that those hoarding for some fantasy next big thing will regret missing the actual next big thing if they hoard through Kitty. She will be undoubtedly part of a future meta.
 

Kitty is really good now and meta at this point, unless they bring out a character that nerfs opponent tiles or destroys them easily, then she is no longer meta as her only real great ability is her tile buffing.  She is only meta as well due to Grocket's tiles, without them she is really only mid tier.  

Black suit spidey is already out. He nerfs attack tiles. Thor has silly board shake which destroys tiles faster. Kitty herself counters kitty by removing specials every turn. Being best teamed with a 4* also hurts her, and she is still meta.

Nothing is going to stop her from being meta besides a straight nerf.

Yes and no. She is not "best" when paired with a 4*.  She is "only meta because one 4* passively starts every match with enough strikes to proc her passive immediately." Without the ability to begin boosting strikes on round 2, she is *just* a good support character (but not as good as okoye). 

If you removed * grocket from the game, the net effect woild be a huge Nerf to kitty without changing anything about her.

She may not be the "best" but she is absolutely top tier even without grocket.

She counters about half of the 5*'s just by removing specials. Her red is better than most give it credit for. Especially if you hold it till the enemy fires an aoe. That's 9 attack tiles if all 3 of your people are alive. For 6 red. And with it being an 8 turn countdown it has plenty of staying power.

People claimed kitty was not meta or an easy skip because she could not compete with thorkoye. So I see carol as the same. I am not going to pass judgement till we have numbers. And even with numbers (like we had with kitty) never underestimate niche uses or odd pairings with certain characters to make someone shine.

Vhailorx

tiomono said:

Vhailorx said:

tiomono said:

Warbringa said:

Daredevil217 said:

Good discussion! I’ll just reply to some comments in general. 


- It’s possible that those hoarding for some fantasy next big thing will regret missing the actual next big thing if they hoard through Kitty. She will be undoubtedly part of a future meta.
 

Kitty is really good now and meta at this point, unless they bring out a character that nerfs opponent tiles or destroys them easily, then she is no longer meta as her only real great ability is her tile buffing.  She is only meta as well due to Grocket's tiles, without them she is really only mid tier.  

Black suit spidey is already out. He nerfs attack tiles. Thor has silly board shake which destroys tiles faster. Kitty herself counters kitty by removing specials every turn. Being best teamed with a 4* also hurts her, and she is still meta.

Nothing is going to stop her from being meta besides a straight nerf.

Yes and no. She is not "best" when paired with a 4*.  She is "only meta because one 4* passively starts every match with enough strikes to proc her passive immediately." Without the ability to begin boosting strikes on round 2, she is *just* a good support character (but not as good as okoye). 

If you removed * grocket from the game, the net effect woild be a huge Nerf to kitty without changing anything about her.

She may not be the "best" but she is absolutely top tier even without grocket.

She counters about half of the 5*'s just by removing specials. Her red is better than most give it credit for. Especially if you hold it till the enemy fires an aoe. That's 9 attack tiles if all 3 of your people are alive. For 6 red. And with it being an 8 turn countdown it has plenty of staying power.

People claimed kitty was not meta or an easy skip because she could not compete with thorkoye. So I see carol as the same. I am not going to pass judgement till we have numbers. And even with numbers (like we had with kitty) never underestimate niche uses or odd pairings with certain characters to make someone shine.

Without grocket, I think kitty would be a good 5* support character.  Not as good as okoye for all around utility, but arguably better in some circumstances (basically any match with lots of/very important special tiles on either side and little boardshake). 

But I remain doubtful of her red.  Even in your description, it requires the opportunity cost of 6 red AP (there are plenty of good red 5* powers), and it requires you to eat enemy powers to do anything at all.  Few top tier tactics in mpq require such a thing. In fact, most of the best tactics prevent the enemy from firing powers at all.

Similarly, I remain dubious of 5* marvel for thay same reason. There is currently a pretty hard ceiling on how useful any repeater tile based power can be, especially active ones. Never say never of course. Numbers are important, and it's totally possible to be a meta character with 1 **** power. But the odds are lower.

HoundofShadow

In non-4* and 5* land, the most common pairings are Kitty + 3* Daken or 3* Blade. In 2* land, it will probably be Kitty + Wolverine + Daken / Bullseye.

Based on what I see, the number of turn a repeater tile get reduced at 5 cover is 1. 5* GR starts with 2-turn repeater tiles (up to 4 covers). It became a 1-turn repeater tile at 5 covers. It will be unprecedented for a 3-turn repeater tile (up to 3 covers) to become a 1-turn repeater at 5 covers.

Getting a repeater to reduce repeater turn could be broken. Loki is going to do AoE every turn without using any ap after casting his repeater. 

Daredevil217

HoundofShadow said:

In non-4* and 5* land, the most common pairings are Kitty + 3* Daken or 3* Blade. In 2* land, it will probably be Kitty + Wolverine + Daken / Bullseye.

Based on what I see, the number of turn a repeater tile get reduced at 5 cover is 1. 5* GR starts with 2-turn repeater tiles (up to 4 covers). It became a 1-turn repeater tile at 5 covers. It will be unprecedented for a 3-turn repeater tile (up to 3 covers) to become a 1-turn repeater at 5 covers.

Getting a repeater to reduce repeater turn could be broken. Loki is going to do AoE every turn without using any ap after casting his repeater. 

Kitty Pryde’s is a 3-turn (1-2 covers) that at 5 covers becomes a 1-turn. So there’s precedent.  You’re right that there is no precedent for that kind of leap from 3 to 5 though. Doesn’t mean there couldn’t be. 

HoundofShadow

The repeater that I have in mind when I was doing the comparison is something similar to Loki's, Black Panther's, Emma's, Kingpin's etc.

Kitty's repeater works a little differently from your typical repeater because:

1) it requires the enemy to have at least 1 S/A/P/CD tile to activate. Most repeater requires aps to cast.

2) it destroys itself to deal damage under certain condition. Most repeater won't destroy itself to do something. Instead, it continues to perform certain actions for every set number of turn(s).


If 5* Captain Marvel's repeater works similar to Kitty's, it's possible to be a 1-turn repeater.


Captain Marvel's abilities look to be (based on the assumption that those red strike tiles, green and red repeater belong to 5* CM.):

1) bringing one random ally (a guess) and herself airborne for 1 turn.

2) a green passive ability that becomes an active power. Coincidentally, there was a green repeater on the board. I guess that she generates a green repeater passively that do something. Probably, it generates green aps in some way and then removes/destroys itself to turn into active power that can be fired. Rinse and repeat.

3) a red power that generates red strike tiles and red repeater tile. This red repeater probably will buff strike tiles.

I wish to see a non-support and non-Bagman ability that can increase the number of the turns for friendly countdown tiles. It's niche. It could be interesting and turn out to be a double-edged sword as well. A repeater that reduces friendly countdown tiles or increase opponents' cd turn would be nice too.