The Most Uninspired Set in MTGPQ History: M19
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Mburn7 said:
I totally agree. This happens all the time. Kaladesh was widely panned, then it turned out to be one of the most overpowered sets we have (until it got nerfed down to just really really good).madwren said:Brakkis said:I genuinely enjoy this update and I like a good number of the creatures. It just hurts more because of the loss of HoU and those powerhouse spells we lost with it while getting almost nothing to replace them.It reminds me of Kaladesh more than anything. Eventually we wound up loving a lot of those cards, but at first glance, we were disappointed, because all of our fun/powerful/broken SOI cards had rotated out and we missed them.I should clarify my statement a bit. First, I said "rotated out" when of course they hadn't. That's what I get for writing forum posts before I'm fully awake. When Legacy/Standard were introduced, of course, Kaladesh remained in while SOI did not, but they did coexist for awhile.Kaladesh certainly had powerful cards, but general consensus was that it was a major step down from SOI/EMN power creep overall. One primary issue with Kaladesh was that the top energizers were locked away behind exclusive rewards and paywall. For a long, long time, no one could really do anything fun with energize because no one had the cards. Dynavolt was great for the 50 people that owned it. I spilled a lot of ink writing about how they needed to make these cards accessible.Kaladesh mythics in general, though, were disappointing. There were three auto-includes besides the hard-to-acquire Dynavolt. We had Angel, Colossus, and Skysovereign, plus a bunch of ok-but-niche cards that were significantly less powerful than the Ulrichs and Olivias and Bandits and Emrakuls and Pigs we'd seen before. They were lower power/toughness, higher casting cost, fewer immediately noticeable or impactful effects. Later, we broke Rashmi, and some other cards found niche usage (I certainly loved the occasional Red Hulk or Marionette deck). Energize as a mechanic, though, was more of a slow burn, as opposed to the "You have 5 turns to live" style of SOI block.In fact, I'd argue it wasn't until Aether Revolt came that Kaladesh block really took off, with Baral, Gonti's, Heart of Kiran, Lightning Runner, Rishkar's Expertise. Three of those are tremendous deck enablers--Baral, Rx, and LR--and Gonti's of course was a great "can I build around this" card.Regardless, I'm getting away from myself here. My point was primarily that even if Kaladesh was a step down in power, we still eventually found our favorites. We still found some cards to play with, some unheralded ones that we realized were much better than first appearances, some combinations that weren't immediately noticeable. I'm optimistic that the same will happen in M19.I just think that it's understandable some people are disappointed at the power level drop, and that others saying "but there are some good cards!" isn't really an answer to that disappointment. Yeah, there were good cards in Kaladesh too, but it was a huge adjustment, and the people who were on the forums then can surely remember the general malaise that afflicted the playerbase because it was such a disappointment.
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James13 said:
(Psst. Baral and Rx was in the Kaladesh block of sets. AER was the last set that was specifically an expansion of KLD [characterized by no commons].)bluemage said:
Was it? Is it? Did it?Mburn7 said:
Kaladesh was widely panned, then it turned out to be one of the most overpowered sets we have (until it got nerfed down to just really really good).
What's overpowered in Kaladesh? I'm looking at the list of Mythics and Rares now, and I see Rashmi... um.. and then.... Metalwork Colossus.... and then.... Dynavolt Tower and Skysovereign?
Are they really in the same league as Deploy, BTB, HUF, Prism Array, Cycling, HoP, Rx, Baral, TSN, Olivia, Emrakul, Drowner, STV, Etali, Desolation Twin, Exert Influence, GR, Hixus, Lich's Mastery, PGR, TTG?
Sir, I say to you, your assertion is flawed!
Lightning runner, Heart of Kiran, Solemn Recruit, Angel of Invention, Cultivator of Blades, Herald of Anguish, Insidious Will, Whir of Invention, Sram, Rishkar's Expertise, Padeem, Noxious Gearhulk, Combustable Gearhulk, Marionette Master, Lost Legacy. Just to name a few that I'm still actively using in legacy matches.How did you all forget about Omniscience? It's like the poster child of overpowered. lolKaladesh was overpowered when you could use the Heart with energy counters and get infinite swaps. That was a nerf I was actually happy about.0 -
Omniscience is HOU? Now, a lot of people were indeed abusing it with the KLD block Whir. But I think the conversation was on this tangent about KLD cards.FindingHeart8 said:How did you all forget about Omniscience? It's like the poster child of overpowered. lol
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Bluemage: "So is your point that AER was widely panned as well as Kaladesh? I don't remember that happening."
I'm not sure what you're referring to here. I responding to the idea of KLD block not having "overpowered cards" in which you listed at least two KLD block cards. I think the difference was in how we're respectively defining the block. I don't consider AER a standalone set in any context (and the MTGPQ rotation agreed with me in that regard).
I think I was taking exception to the idea of KLD block having "no real powerful cards" as I was reading it.
Energize/Overload/Servos have been and continue to be a personal Legacy staple. My main "quick clear legacy" deck includes cultivator of blades, lightning runner and overcome for very quick and cheap kills.0 -
It’s reallu not. StV is a million times better.FindingHeart8 said:James13 said:
(Psst. Baral and Rx was in the Kaladesh block of sets. AER was the last set that was specifically an expansion of KLD [characterized by no commons].)bluemage said:
Was it? Is it? Did it?Mburn7 said:
Kaladesh was widely panned, then it turned out to be one of the most overpowered sets we have (until it got nerfed down to just really really good).
What's overpowered in Kaladesh? I'm looking at the list of Mythics and Rares now, and I see Rashmi... um.. and then.... Metalwork Colossus.... and then.... Dynavolt Tower and Skysovereign?
Are they really in the same league as Deploy, BTB, HUF, Prism Array, Cycling, HoP, Rx, Baral, TSN, Olivia, Emrakul, Drowner, STV, Etali, Desolation Twin, Exert Influence, GR, Hixus, Lich's Mastery, PGR, TTG?
Sir, I say to you, your assertion is flawed!
Lightning runner, Heart of Kiran, Solemn Recruit, Angel of Invention, Cultivator of Blades, Herald of Anguish, Insidious Will, Whir of Invention, Sram, Rishkar's Expertise, Padeem, Noxious Gearhulk, Combustable Gearhulk, Marionette Master, Lost Legacy. Just to name a few that I'm still actively using in legacy matches.How did you all forget about Omniscience? It's like the poster child of overpowered. lolKaladesh was overpowered when you could use the Heart with energy counters and get infinite swaps. That was a nerf I was actually happy about.1 -
I thought we were talking about Kaladesh being the most broken set ever, and then listing counterexamples to why it wasntJames13 said:
Omniscience is HOU?FindingHeart8 said:How did you all forget about Omniscience? It's like the poster child of overpowered. lol
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I disagree. StV may have the edge in early-game, but I remember opponents making 30 swaps in 1 turn off of the Heartbken1234 said:
It’s reallu not. StV is a million times better.FindingHeart8 said:James13 said:
(Psst. Baral and Rx was in the Kaladesh block of sets. AER was the last set that was specifically an expansion of KLD [characterized by no commons].)bluemage said:
Was it? Is it? Did it?Mburn7 said:
Kaladesh was widely panned, then it turned out to be one of the most overpowered sets we have (until it got nerfed down to just really really good).
What's overpowered in Kaladesh? I'm looking at the list of Mythics and Rares now, and I see Rashmi... um.. and then.... Metalwork Colossus.... and then.... Dynavolt Tower and Skysovereign?
Are they really in the same league as Deploy, BTB, HUF, Prism Array, Cycling, HoP, Rx, Baral, TSN, Olivia, Emrakul, Drowner, STV, Etali, Desolation Twin, Exert Influence, GR, Hixus, Lich's Mastery, PGR, TTG?
Sir, I say to you, your assertion is flawed!
Lightning runner, Heart of Kiran, Solemn Recruit, Angel of Invention, Cultivator of Blades, Herald of Anguish, Insidious Will, Whir of Invention, Sram, Rishkar's Expertise, Padeem, Noxious Gearhulk, Combustable Gearhulk, Marionette Master, Lost Legacy. Just to name a few that I'm still actively using in legacy matches.How did you all forget about Omniscience? It's like the poster child of overpowered. lolKaladesh was overpowered when you could use the Heart with energy counters and get infinite swaps. That was a nerf I was actually happy about.
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FindingHeart8 said:
I disagree. StV may have the edge in early-game, but I remember opponents making 30 swaps in 1 turn off of the Heartbken1234 said:
It’s reallu not. StV is a million times better.FindingHeart8 said:James13 said:
(Psst. Baral and Rx was in the Kaladesh block of sets. AER was the last set that was specifically an expansion of KLD [characterized by no commons].)bluemage said:
Was it? Is it? Did it?Mburn7 said:
Kaladesh was widely panned, then it turned out to be one of the most overpowered sets we have (until it got nerfed down to just really really good).
What's overpowered in Kaladesh? I'm looking at the list of Mythics and Rares now, and I see Rashmi... um.. and then.... Metalwork Colossus.... and then.... Dynavolt Tower and Skysovereign?
Are they really in the same league as Deploy, BTB, HUF, Prism Array, Cycling, HoP, Rx, Baral, TSN, Olivia, Emrakul, Drowner, STV, Etali, Desolation Twin, Exert Influence, GR, Hixus, Lich's Mastery, PGR, TTG?
Sir, I say to you, your assertion is flawed!
Lightning runner, Heart of Kiran, Solemn Recruit, Angel of Invention, Cultivator of Blades, Herald of Anguish, Insidious Will, Whir of Invention, Sram, Rishkar's Expertise, Padeem, Noxious Gearhulk, Combustable Gearhulk, Marionette Master, Lost Legacy. Just to name a few that I'm still actively using in legacy matches.How did you all forget about Omniscience? It's like the poster child of overpowered. lolKaladesh was overpowered when you could use the Heart with energy counters and get infinite swaps. That was a nerf I was actually happy about.They're different animals, though. Gonti's was essentially a combo deck, so it needed to be a build-around with facilitators. Storm the Vault just gets plopped into whatever deck you're running.0 -
I think some people are talking past each other here. I was responding to a comment suggesting KLD had nothing of strong value.FindingHeart8 said:
I thought we were talking about Kaladesh being the most broken set ever, and then listing counterexamples to why it wasntJames13 said:
Omniscience is HOU?FindingHeart8 said:How did you all forget about Omniscience? It's like the poster child of overpowered. lol0 -
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madwren said:FindingHeart8 said:
I disagree. StV may have the edge in early-game, but I remember opponents making 30 swaps in 1 turn off of the Heartbken1234 said:
It’s reallu not. StV is a million times better.FindingHeart8 said:James13 said:
(Psst. Baral and Rx was in the Kaladesh block of sets. AER was the last set that was specifically an expansion of KLD [characterized by no commons].)bluemage said:
Was it? Is it? Did it?Mburn7 said:
Kaladesh was widely panned, then it turned out to be one of the most overpowered sets we have (until it got nerfed down to just really really good).
What's overpowered in Kaladesh? I'm looking at the list of Mythics and Rares now, and I see Rashmi... um.. and then.... Metalwork Colossus.... and then.... Dynavolt Tower and Skysovereign?
Are they really in the same league as Deploy, BTB, HUF, Prism Array, Cycling, HoP, Rx, Baral, TSN, Olivia, Emrakul, Drowner, STV, Etali, Desolation Twin, Exert Influence, GR, Hixus, Lich's Mastery, PGR, TTG?
Sir, I say to you, your assertion is flawed!
Lightning runner, Heart of Kiran, Solemn Recruit, Angel of Invention, Cultivator of Blades, Herald of Anguish, Insidious Will, Whir of Invention, Sram, Rishkar's Expertise, Padeem, Noxious Gearhulk, Combustable Gearhulk, Marionette Master, Lost Legacy. Just to name a few that I'm still actively using in legacy matches.How did you all forget about Omniscience? It's like the poster child of overpowered. lolKaladesh was overpowered when you could use the Heart with energy counters and get infinite swaps. That was a nerf I was actually happy about.They're different animals, though. Gonti's was essentially a combo deck, so it needed to be a build-around with facilitators. Storm the Vault just gets plopped into whatever deck you're running.Not pointing fingers here, but just want to point out that I didn't make the original comparison between the two lol
StV is still conditional to an extent. It's limited to red or blue decks, where Gonti can go anywhere. It doesn't work so well in a spell-heavy deck (which happens to be most of my red and blue decks lol).0 -
Wow, I go out for lunch for 30 min and my comments are getting blown up.
I may have hyperbolized the power level of Kaladesh a bit, but it still ended up being way more powerful than we originally thought it was.
I still use my Dovin energy deck that I made on release day of Kaladesh in Legacy and it rarely loses, and I don't even have any of the energy mythics (actually, I got the Marvel a month or so ago and after putting it in I realized it made the deck worse. lol). 2 of the 3 creatures in it are uncommons, as are most of the other cards (the only rares are Aethersphere Harvester, Oath of Ajani, Deadbolt Trap, and Turn to Frog).
Back on topic, my point is simply that every time we make opinions about cards before/immediately after release we are wrong. Rashimi was loudly complained about as being the worst mythic ever made (I'm not joking, people said that), and she turned out to be one of the best. Amonkhet was called a huge step down in power level and turned out to be a really solid set in its own right. Ixalan was called the worst set ever (again, people actually called it that) and now its cards are staples in a lot of top-tier decks.
I have full confidence that M19 will turn out to be much better than a lot of people think right now. History has proven our day 1 power evaluations to be wrong way more often than not.0 -
yeah this conversation is getting to be as straightforward as untangling last year's christmas-tree lights lolJames13 said:
I think some people are talking past each other here. I was responding to a comment suggesting KLD had nothing of strong value.FindingHeart8 said:
I thought we were talking about Kaladesh being the most broken set ever, and then listing counterexamples to why it wasntJames13 said:
Omniscience is HOU?FindingHeart8 said:How did you all forget about Omniscience? It's like the poster child of overpowered. lol
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Apex of Power is amazing. It gives the first card in hand 3 mana for every card drawn until it is full and then moving down the list. This is strictly different from Days because you can get 18 mana in one card!1
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It's a core set. For those unfamiliar with what that means, m19 is exactly what it's supposed to be. It isn't m19s fault that this game has such a janky rotation. Core sets are meant to be filled with cards less complicated and generally less powerful than the cards in expansions to supplement the cards in standard. Origins is a core set. It is quite a bit better than m19, but still very unexciting. M19 is fine. Again , the people cry for balance, the people get it. Just enjoy your janky set and make the best of it . It's going to be here for a while.1
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Ah, well that is certainly way better. I rescind my statement. Filling the cards sequentially make it a really strong card.nerdstrap said:Apex of Power is amazing. It gives the first card in hand 3 mana for every card drawn until it is full and then moving down the list. This is strictly different from Days because you can get 18 mana in one card!0 -
Yeah, it was a weird choice of phrasing to write Apex of Power the way they did - I mean, you're *always* going to draw 6 cards, so you're *always* going to gain 18 mana, so why not just say, "gain 18 mana" right on the card?
Anyways, most of what I wanted to say in this thread has already been said. As a core set I wasn't expecting it to be full of bombs you build decks around, but rather, full of the cards you use for the building-around. Which it seems like it is, to me. Which is okay, I guess, though it leaves us dealing with some noticeable holes in the Standard sets' capabilities. Still, complaining about holes in the color pie and balance between colors in a given card block, man, that feels like part of the Real, Authentic Magic: The Gathering Experience to me, if we can get this game to a point where that's all we have to complain about I'll be thrilled.
I also think the power level of sets is always underestimated at first because people don't have too many of the relevant mythics and rares to try out, which leads to misunderstandings/mis-estimates (see the misconception with Apex, for example). Ixalan got widely panned at first because nobody had any of the mythic dinos or set-exclusives to play with (and it's also worth reminding everyone that they rebalanced the casting costs of a bunch of the overpriced Ixalan cards, so part of the reason people thought Ixalan was bad, initially, is because it was bad, initially). In particular, the fact that they have always held back a bunch of the most bomb-tastic cards to be exclusive $$$ offers that get dribbled out over time means sets will always be a little below their actual final power level right out of the gate.
As for the lack of good spells now that HOU rotated out, and in particular the terrible state of burn spells, all I can say is I TOLD YOU SO.
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You guys were talking about power level of sets and such; but, I believe its very important to consider the circumstances/state of the Standard format.When a set rotates out, the Standard format/meta changes as well. Cards that were once not considered powerful become powerful based on the confines that the standard format is enclosed in. In other words, power level is relative to what you have available in the standard format; however, this does not mean that the card is inherently stronger or more powerful.For example, Hour of Devastation was the strongest red sweeper you could get. Hence, those who owned it, in most cases used it. Now, its gone, so the next runner ups have become more valuable/powerful relative to the standard format. Thus, considerations include star of extinction, chandras ignition, jayas immolating inferno, first eruption. A test of true power level is probably legacy, if its one of your go to legacy cards, its probably a strong one.Why did I write this? lol. well it'd be a waste to delete now that I have spent the time. So away you go!0
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jimpark said:You guys were talking about power level of sets and such; but, I believe its very important to consider the circumstances/state of the Standard format.When a set rotates out, the Standard format/meta changes as well. Cards that were once not considered powerful become powerful based on the confines that the standard format is enclosed in. In other words, power level is relative to what you have available in the standard format; however, this does not mean that the card is inherently stronger or more powerful.For example, Hour of Devastation was the strongest red sweeper you could get. Hence, those who owned it, in most cases used it. Now, its gone, so the next runner ups have become more valuable/powerful relative to the standard format. Thus, considerations include star of extinction, chandras ignition, jayas immolating inferno, first eruption. A test of true power level is probably legacy, if its one of your go to legacy cards, its probably a strong one.Why did I write this? lol. well it'd be a waste to delete now that I have spent the time. So away you go!
In considering the state of the standard format:
Red lacks decent burn spells; even more so when you compare the cost of red's bigger burn spells to blacks removal spells that just straight up destroy a creature.
Green lacks a big converter with the loss of HoP and the very poorly implemented Scapeshift.0
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