The Most Uninspired Set in MTGPQ History: M19

Gunmix25

Mark_Tedin said:

I'll go further. The 2.8 update was the worst ever. First, the update crashed, and some mates lost the account. Second, the last powerful set (HOU) came out of the standard, along with HuF, Hour of Promise, Imminent Doom ... In THIRD PLACE, all our legacy decks were broken by the GREATEST NERF in game history. Yes, two whole cycling sets were nerf. I've been fixing my legacy decks for two days and I almost did not have time to play the events ... and still have the standard decks ... I never thought so seriously about leaving the game like now. Nerf legacy is the worst thing the game can do.   

Irony: all the legacy matches were dominated by the broken cycling mechanic pre-nerf. 
The change was needed. Cycling is still there, just can't cycle to a win in two turns anymore.  

wereotter

Gunmix25 said:

Mark_Tedin said:

I'll go further. The 2.8 update was the worst ever. First, the update crashed, and some mates lost the account. Second, the last powerful set (HOU) came out of the standard, along with HuF, Hour of Promise, Imminent Doom ... In THIRD PLACE, all our legacy decks were broken by the GREATEST NERF in game history. Yes, two whole cycling sets were nerf. I've been fixing my legacy decks for two days and I almost did not have time to play the events ... and still have the standard decks ... I never thought so seriously about leaving the game like now. Nerf legacy is the worst thing the game can do.   

Irony: all the legacy matches were dominated by the broken cycling mechanic pre-nerf. 
The change was needed. Cycling is still there, just can't cycle to a win in two turns anymore.  

Gotta maintain the old status quo  

Stormbringer0

I feel like that the gap between rares and mythics is closer now than before. Or is it just me? I think, there are more okay rares than must have mythics.

And don't insult Chaos Wand! That card is fun!

TheExaminer

To be honest, M19 might not be that bad. It is probably even better than Ixalan. What makes it look bad though, is how awesome Dominaria was. Since Dominaria came out, I have been brewing a new deck every couple of days, and I haven't even tried all of the cards yet. That set was pure gas, loads of extremely fun and powerful cards at rarities as low as common and uncommon. 
The amount of time we spent waiting for Dominaria was 1000% worth it. M19 on the other hand, just pales in comparison.

TomB

Maybe that's what it is...and you can count the power of RIX too as detracting from the excitement of M19 as well perhaps. For me I'm just a bit underwhelmed trying to replace the outgoing HoD cards in my decks, like HoD and Reason/Believe, with cards like Jaya's Immolating Inferno (forcing me to abandon many non-legendary creatures) and Patient Rebuilding. I mean sure, the newly costed Zalfirin Void is a decent replacement for Manalith, and even though with Doomfall and HoD gone non-targetted removal takes a big hit there are several very nice new black removal spells, but honestly it seems like a downgrade every time I rebuild an old standard-legal deck to have it comply with the new standard, and not one pack I've opened has given me a card to get excited about (though Hell's Caretaker may have a bit of promise, eventually).

khurram

bken1234 said:

I’m quite happy with the set. Leader is fun (tribal dragons with Oath of Teferi). Bolas 2 is super fun. Things work well in new standard. I disagree with this post 117%. 

What about things other than Bolas and leader. The thing I was looking forward to the most were the elder dragons, but I've been underwhelmed by them.

[Deleted User]

I looked over the card gallery, one or two days before release... I fell asleep - nothing really excited me (but in their defense, I was looking at the lamer cards of the set as opposed to the stronger cards since those were already spoiled by my coalition mates). The only thing that excited me are the high rarity cards I will never get to use like the MPs and a few mythics here and there.

Things were made worse by the power disparity in card I thought. There aren't a whole lot of useful, strong rares when compared the the mythics/masterpieces. The set is pretty weak-sauce; but, I don't expect much from a core set.

I would say this set is below average but not completely useless.

What does really bug me that I don't understand is... why are red spells just bad. Black has removal and its good with its destroy effects... but red has very under-powered removal options, i.e. burn spells.

James13

Red does have a consistent problem with it's burn being just slightly underpowered in almost all cases.

I'd say Inferno Jet, Deem Worthy, and Hour of Devestation were the cases where it was about right.  I can see the challenge in dialing in a balanced power level for "burn" properly.  You could easily make the argument that Hour of Devestation was even a little TOO good.  I hear Electrolyze is quite good, but seeing as it's a MP I'll probably never know.

But when you can outright destroy creatures regardless of size for as little as 3 mana (Sting, legacy) to 7 (Murder, etc), inflicting 3~6 damage or a capped 10 damage (jaya's inferno, banefire) that might not even kill for more cost feels like probably waste of a limited card slot.


EDIT: to add a suggestion.  Red should probably have a card that is something like the KLD-block Disintegrate or "kill target and inflict some amount relative to power/toughness to the opponent in damage" available in standard.

Mburn7

Posts like this are why we have power creep.  M19 so far appears to be a perfectly fine set.  Flash is a cool new mechanic, Leader is a lot of fun to play with, and there are a lot of cards that are nice additions to most decks.

True, most of the non-masterpiece cards aren't incredibly overpowered.  But then again, WE DON'T WANT INCREDIBLY OVERPOWERED CARDS.  Whenever something stupidly powerful comes out, we complain that it's stupidly powerful.  So Oktagon did the correct thing.  They balanced everything out so nothing is that bad.  Now that HOU is gone, we are finally in a 100% Oktagon standard.  And you know what?  I like this standard.  Take out a half a dozen cards or so and it is pretty perfectly balanced.

That isn't uninspired.  That's good design.

(also, as others have mentioned, Core sets aren't supposed to be marquee sets anyway, just really solid filler for new players and existing decks.  It hurts that a lot of these cards in paper were designed for Kaladesh and Amonkhet stuff that is still standard, but it still works just fine for us)

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Tilwin90

My goodness, I really didn't expect this. Though in all fairness I did get less excitement over the set. Some cards surprised me positively, others are super meh. I don't favor power creep, but we also need to have fun builds to make and interesting things to do with the cards.

The beauty of the pendulum theory, if implemented correctly, is that it should give the users the apparent impression that the power level is there, by pushing the game in different directions. It's more of an "apparent power level increase" rather than a real one. I was surprised to notice that Oktagon actually nailed it with IXN (after seeing the whole block), and DOM as well. M19 does not necessarily seem to be there but it's interesting to see how new sets will behave in this ecosystem.

In terms of commons and uncommons the trend is indeed pretty low power and unusable stuff. 
- White got Take Vengeance and Satyr Enchanter that grabbed my attention, though neither of them seems that usable. Everything else is super meh in a vacuum!
- Blue has some horrible creatures (no surprise there) and useless effects (see Mirror Image... such a bad implementation for such a great paper card!).
On the other hand it got probably one of the best card draws in the game in Sift (if you haven't tried it, please do... its potential is stupid!), great board paralysis for the opponent (Sleep shuts down the opponent board for two turns, that's huge!), and more removal (Totally Lost is great, though right now the current implementation again is currently bad because it targets ANY creature, not only opposing creatures). 
- Black once again excels in removal (Murder and Lich's Caress are both super decent), Rise from the Grave can actually be good with the right cards, and potential combo starters (Stitcher's Supplier reminds me of Gisa and Geralf though nowhere near as powerful). On the other hand is also has idiotic cards like Diregraf Ghoul that really make no sense to me.
- Red is negligible - look at how bad the burn is in it and you'll begin to understand how they attempted to plain copy values from paper magic. Fiery Finish is too narrow, Lightning Strike, Lava Axe and Shock deal way too little damage, not even Spit Flame makes me interested. Did I mention Dragon Egg reinforces itself, working against the desired destroy effect? Sure, it has some support removal, but that's already something we get from Origins - there is no limited format in MTGPQ to make these relevant in a vacuum set. Guttersnipe and Doublecast are the only ones to maybe consider.  
- Green got some great gems here via Scapeshift (that thing is really good!), Prodigious Growth (that cost is excused if you combine it with some first striker or other dangerous creature), heck even Root Snare (first real fog spell). I'm surprised the creatures are so underpowered in green though...
- Colorless gives us some decent gem converters and Rupture Spire, which if you have played with Scapeshift will know why is powerful (same reason, but colorless!!!!)

Now in terms of rares I agree I was rather disappointed but I haven't played too much with them yet. 
- I see the land theme is pushed once again, to no avail. I cannot be tempted to employ such a strategy in a real PVP event.
- We get the usual mix of good cards thanks to Vine Mare (hexproof creatures are always fun), Sarkhan's Unsealing (it is not broken but it can be very powerful in the right decks), Infernal Reckoning (more removal), Vivien's Invocation (for a mix of creature fetch and removal which in green is always neat) and Sai Master Thopterist (I actually played with it and it can be good, though I dislike that it is slightly parasitic - requires other thopter generators which are quite scarce in M19).
- We get a few sideboard cards that just don't make the cut since you never know what the opponent will play (Suncleanser & Plague Mare are the most noticeable here) 
- We get some very good stuff, thanks to Resplendent Angel (again, with the right cards it gets to absurd levels), Meteor Golem (support and creature removal for all colors is nice)
- And of course we get quite a few bad cards.
     -- Detection Tower feels like a trap,
     -- Diamond Mare probably needs a very very narrow combo to be of any use especially since it can compete with Prism Ring,
      -- Heroic Reinforcements is overpriced,
      -- Mystic Archaeologist (too slow, too little gain),
      -- One With the Machine just doesn't feel that useful in MTGPQ,
      -- Runic Armasaur has the weirdest trigger condition and the most underwhelming effect to it,
      -- Shield Mare is a shameless translation for paper magic and has little use,
      -- Surge Mare needs to be activated to attack on its own (for drawing a card? again?!)
      -- Supreme Phantom doesn't do much
      -- Reliquary Tower simply looks USELESS
... and probably other

Mythics are okay in my books, and I did find a few cute gems here too:
- Patient Rebuilding is a different Azcanta - once Azcanta is gone I expect people might turn to it
- Transmogrifying Wand gives removal in all colors - you don't find it useful until you use it (no, I don't have it yet)
- Isareth the Awakener needs to stick around to be good but if it gets to swing repeatedly I expect it can get close to rivaling Etali (AND they are of different colors)
- Isolate may look underpowered, but if you play your cards right, it's excellent removal in white.
- Djinn of Wishes has already spawned some interesting builds from people and has tons of potential
- Cleansing Nova is a very fun and possibly asymmetrical sweeper and we need to have sweepers in Standard
- Banefire looks hated by a lot of people, but I find it useful in a spells centered deck since it can act as direct burn (and is nowhere near as narrow as Jaya's Immolating Inferno)
- Apex of Power once again looks amazing in red (it's not Day's Undoing, but again, we are talking about a totally different color here! Try it in Koth!)
- Dragon's Hoard is to me pretty much a better Unclaimed Territory (and I ended up using Territory more frequently than I thought I would)
- Demanding Dragon can be straight creature removal for red (for hexproofs this can be super relevant again, though I do dislike the conditional factor!)
- Arcades is incredibly interesting and it can push creatures like Vona and Gishath through the roof (defenders and vigilance creatures will always exist in Standard)

Some of the bad ones in my books are
- Fraying Omnipotence (can't cast it if you don't have creatures, and I assume cards in hand as well -> why bother with a symmetrical card if you can't break the symmetry? that's the whole point),
- Druid of Horns (this looks rare at best, it's super super narrow),
- Amulet of Safekeeping (I know what was intended here, but again, doesn't look mythic to me for such a narrow sideboard card I will probably never play) 
- Ajani's Last Stand (I guess it's a sideboard card against Lili1 but then again, why would I bother with that?)
- Mistcaller (sideboard material again...)
- Magistrate's Scepter (I just never liked trap... and I get how extra turns can be powerful, I just haven't found any good uses for it yet)
- Millstone (just bleah! why bother make this a mythic again?)

Yes I agree, the elite cards are very powerful and real chase cards though careful as you might pull the shortest straw too.
- Very Good: Ball Lightning (stupid in Koth), Blue Sun's Zenith (read it again if you don't why I find it absurdly good), Luminarch's Ascension (with Rupture Spire around and Resplendent Angel a thing, I can't tell you how powerful this is), Plague Wind (people already complained about it, though I guess we'll have to see how often we face it and how bad it is), Summoner's Pact (that lifeloss is so irrelevant...)
- Kind of interesting: Hell's Caretaker (right now overshadowed by Rebirth in my books), Decree of Justice (overshadowed by Acension... if you have that, you won't use this one, otherwise it might actually be fun), Bident of Thassa (this is actually super super interesting and I'm curious how it will turn out if I ever grab it)
- No thanks: Eidolon of the Great Revel (far less relevant than in paper magic, I couldn't be bothered about it), Courser of Kruphix (lands again and with so little control from the player? shove it down the WC and flush please!)

babar3355

Well, that certainly got a hailstorm of chatter going.  And just so I am clear, I was not upset or angry when I made the OP..  I was simply commenting on the lack of inspiring options.

I don't think every set needs to be full of bombs and I don't think my post in any way screams for power creep.  For instance, Rebirth is a really cool and powerful card but it requires a very specific set up and if it develops too slowly it can easily lose.  Thus, it is fun to make decks to abuse the power, but it has never shown up in a competitive deck of mine.

Perhaps my take is from the viewpoint of someone who wants to make videos for my youtube channel that displays interesting combos, strong synergies, and insightful combinations.  I am just really struggling with inspiration in M19. Maybe I got spoiled with Dominaria.  But does anyone really care to click on a video that shows how to build a knights deck?  

On that note, if anyone can give me some good ideas that they think would make a cool video, I would love to hear it.  (Besides Djinn... I will absolutely break him if I ever get him.)

gogol666

babar3355 said:

Well, that certainly got a hailstorm of chatter going.  And just so I am clear, I was not upset or angry when I made the OP..  I was simply commenting on the lack of inspiring options.

I don't think every set needs to be full of bombs and I don't think my post in any way screams for power creep.  For instance, Rebirth is a really cool and powerful card but it requires a very specific set up and if it develops too slowly it can easily lose.  Thus, it is fun to make decks to abuse the power, but it has never shown up in a competitive deck of mine.

Perhaps my take is from the viewpoint of someone who wants to make videos for my youtube channel that displays interesting combos, strong synergies, and insightful combinations.  I am just really struggling with inspiration in M19. Maybe I got spoiled with Dominaria.  But does anyone really care to click on a video that shows how to build a knights deck?  

On that note, if anyone can give me some good ideas that they think would make a cool video, I would love to hear it.  (Besides Djinn... I will absolutely break him if I ever get him.)

Do some oxes! The ox art is amazing

ZW2007-

Tilwin90 said:

- Banefire looks hated by a lot of people, but I find it useful in a spells centered deck since it can act as direct burn (and is nowhere near as narrow as Jaya's Immolating Inferno)

My issue with Banefire is that it requires 10 mana to do what Exquisite Firecraft does for 6 mana. At the same mana cost as Firecraft, it has the same effect as Shock, a 4 mana common. At 14 mana, it does less damage to your opponent than Inferno Jet did as a rare that only cost 10 mana. Hour of Devastation was OP but lets compare anyway. Both have the "ignores prevent damage" clause, which isn't totally irrelevant. Banefire at max power is 14 mana for 10 damage to either a creature or planeswalker. HOD is 15 mana for 12 damage to up to 3 creatures and a planeswalker at the same time. Vast difference in damage potential. Played intelligently HoD will deal 48 damage compared to Banefire's 10.

I feel as though the existence of Koth has forever ruined the potential for any red card. Inferno Jet was probably too good in Koth but just right in everyone else. Just look at Ball Lightning in Koth compared to other planeswalkers. Koth gets a 15/1 double-strike trampler for a match 3. Samut on the other hand only gets an 11/1 which requires at least two matches.

Anyway, back on topic, I think Banefire should deal 2 damage as a base at the 4 mana cost while the stored mana caps at 5 and does X times 2. So it would potentially do 12 damage for 9 mana but scales nicely anywhere in between. (Also as an aside, when the confirmation box comes up to ask if you want to cast it, it really needs to show exactly what its stored mana is, not just how filled it is visually. It is hard to tell if it has the 4 mana I need to kill a 4/4 or only the 3 mana I need to basically waste 7 mana and a card.)

EDIT: So I noticed that this last bit in my aside is already on the card and easy to miss. If the stored mana is not full, you get a confirmation box asking if you want to cast it and at the top of that box it shows your stored mana. If you hit yes, then it asks you to select a target which you can still cancel and not cast the spell.

madwren

Brakkis said:

I genuinely enjoy this update and I like a good number of the creatures. It just hurts more because of the loss of HoU and those powerhouse spells we lost with it while getting almost nothing to replace them.

That's where I'm at, too. I like a lot of the cards, it's just that they feel suppemental in nature. As others have said, a "glue set". That sounds about right.

HOU has left a void that no existing cards fill, which makes the absence more notable. One could argue the game is healthier without powerful mythics like HoD, HoP, HUF, Imminent Doom, Uncage, etc, I suppose--and that's not even counting the vast array of staple rares that we were including in virtually every deck--but that isn't really the point. I think people are disappointed because the current set is:

1) relatively flat in power level except for masterpieces; i.e. nothing stands out

2) perceived as lacking strong centerpiece cards that you build a deck around

I suspect a number of cards will emerge as people acquire them/start playing them, but you know, having overtly powerful cards has a major advantage in that it drives people's desire to acquire them. If the playerbase is unenthusiastic, I think it takes longer for the virtues of a set to be realized.

It reminds me of Kaladesh more than anything. Eventually we wound up loving a lot of those cards, but at first glance, we were disappointed, because all of our fun/powerful/broken SOI cards had rotated out and we missed them.

Mburn7

madwren said:

Brakkis said:

I genuinely enjoy this update and I like a good number of the creatures. It just hurts more because of the loss of HoU and those powerhouse spells we lost with it while getting almost nothing to replace them.

 

It reminds me of Kaladesh more than anything. Eventually we wound up loving a lot of those cards, but at first glance, we were disappointed, because all of our fun/powerful/broken SOI cards had rotated out and we missed them.

I totally agree.  This happens all the time.  Kaladesh was widely panned, then it turned out to be one of the most overpowered sets we have (until it got nerfed down to just really really good).

Ixalan was called a garbage set, now I am being told to craft my missing Ixalan mythics first because they are too good not to have.

Amonkhet was seen as the devs trying to scale back power creep from Kaladesh, and now we are all upset that we can't use our Amonkhet cards anymore (granted most of the power was in HOU, but Amonkhet itself also had quite a few non-cycling staples we all loved to abuse)

This is why I like to wait a few months after a new set comes out to start judging.  Give everyone time to play around with stuff and see what happens.  I'll bet a lot of M19 will end up being staples in various decks.

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James13

bluemage said:

Mburn7 said:

Kaladesh was widely panned, then it turned out to be one of the most overpowered sets we have (until it got nerfed down to just really really good).

Was it? Is it? Did it?

What's overpowered in Kaladesh? I'm looking at the list of Mythics and Rares now, and I see Rashmi... um.. and then.... Metalwork Colossus.... and then.... Dynavolt Tower and Skysovereign?

Are they really in the same league as Deploy, BTB, HUF, Prism Array, Cycling, HoP, Rx, Baral, TSN, Olivia, Emrakul, Drowner, STV, Etali, Desolation Twin, Exert Influence, GR, Hixus, Lich's Mastery, PGR, TTG?

Sir, I say to you, your assertion is flawed!

(Psst.  Baral and Rx was in the Kaladesh block of sets.  AER was the last set that was specifically an expansion of KLD [characterized by no commons].)

Lightning runner, Heart of Kiran, Solemn Recruit, Angel of Invention, Cultivator of Blades, Herald of Anguish, Insidious Will, Whir of Invention, Sram, Rishkar's Expertise, Padeem, Noxious Gearhulk, Combustable Gearhulk, Marionette Master, Lost Legacy.   Just to name a few that I'm still actively using in legacy matches.

khurram

Mburn7 said:

Kaladesh was widely panned, then it turned out to be one of the most overpowered sets we have (until it got nerfed down to just really really good).

They say that if you state stuff with real conviction, people will believe ya

That's obviously not true in this case. KLD was never seen as the "most overpowered set". It also was not "nerfed down". 

4 cards in that set (KLD+AER) were seen as real problems. Only 2 were changed. That's not enough to state that the set was overpowered or that it was nerfed down from that status to just really really good.