I can't do this anymore

Mburn7
Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
edited July 2018 in MtGPQ General Discussion
Since Oktagon started working on MTGPQ I have been a huge supporter of their work on the game.  I liked their ideas and directions, I thought their card and event designs were fun and cool (mostly), and I have defended some of their more questionable decisions here quite a bit (as many of you have seen).

But I can't deal with it anymore.

Because pretty much NOTHING WORKS ANYMORE.

Any card that involves counting things doesnt work.  I played against a Shanna today and saw that she gets +3/+3 no matter how many creatures you have.  Vraska's first ability no longer targets the support with the highest shield.  Verix Bladewing's support deals both the wrong amount of damage and converts the wrong number of gems.  The list goes on and on.  

Any card that involves ordered actions does not work.  Ambuscade worked fine, now its broken.  Savage Stomp didn't work correctly (I haven't bothered checking to see if its fixed, though).  Sagas return from the grave on chapter 3, not chapter 1.  Settle the Wreckage does not always get destroyed after exiling creatures.  Journey to Eternity does not activate if a disabled creature is destroyed, despite the status of the creature having nothing to do with the support.  Some cards seem to work fine, but not how they read, making me wonder if the issue is programming or language, both being quite serious for a game of this magnitude.  

Many of the new events have nodes that do not work.  Zacama and Elenda's nodes on Battle of the Four Tribes are still broken.  I've seen people say that Azor's Gateway and Azor still use their abilities if you have the Immortal Sun out, and/or if they have the Immortal Sun out.  Tishana's ability buff doesn't apply the second time she uses it on the same creature.  The Around the World event (whatever it's actually called) still gives the wrong number of coalition ribbons on the second node.
UPDATE:  The Gerrard Fight (whatever its actually called) creates 2 tokens but only says 1 in the description.  Its definitely more reasonable at 2, but the text really should match the effect.

And now there's a ton of discussion about how Jaya doesn't work properly, how leader may or may not be working properly, how enabling a card still may not be working properly, how the timing of "when attacking" abilities may not be working properly...ect

So its simple.  I'm done defending Oktagon.  The honeymoon is over.
I don't want to say they are as bad as Hibernium yet, but I'm not going to lie, its getting close.  Hibernium's bugs were more serious, true (since those cards just crashed the game), but I don't remember them being even close to this frequent.  It seems like every single rare or mythic that comes out from Oktagon is bugged in some way, and every update just buggs out more and more older cards that had been working fine (did you know you can't cast Nagging Thoughts anymore?  It just gets the red canceled symbol.  I cannot find what allows it to trigger.  And Awaken does not work at all anymore.  And Grovetender Druid still makes the wrong type of plant tokens.  And I'm sure there are more, I just haven't found them yet because I don't play legacy a lot).

So please Oktagon.  Get your **** together.  Because you just lost a very vocal supporter.  Stop putting out cards that don't work correctly.  Stop releasing updates without testing how it will effect older cards.  Stop writing cards in a way that implies one thing but code them to do something else.  We can wait a little longer for new content, its ok to tell us that the next set is delayed because you are fixing bugs.  Please, Please, Please, ENOUGH WITH THE BUGS.
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Comments

  • FindingHeart8
    FindingHeart8 Posts: 2,731 Chairperson of the Boards
    Mburn7 said:
    Since Oktagon started working on MTGPQ I have been a huge supporter of their work on the game.  I liked their ideas and directions, I thought their card and event designs were fun and cool (mostly), and I have defended some of their more questionable decisions here quite a bit (as many of you have seen).

    But I can't deal with it anymore.

    Because pretty much NOTHING WORKS ANYMORE.

    Any card that involves counting things doesnt work.  I played against a Shanna today and saw that she gets +3/+3 no matter how many creatures you have.  Vraska's first ability no longer targets the support with the highest shield.  Verix Bladewing's support deals both the wrong amount of damage and converts the wrong number of gems.  The list goes on and on.  

    Any card that involves ordered actions does not work.  Ambuscade worked fine, now its broken.  Savage Stomp didn't work correctly (I haven't bothered checking to see if its fixed, though).  Sagas return from the grave on chapter 3, not chapter 1.  Settle the Wreckage does not always get destroyed after exiling creatures.  Journey to Eternity does not activate if a disabled creature is destroyed, despite the status of the creature having nothing to do with the support.  Some cards seem to work fine, but not how they read, making me wonder if the issue is programming or language, both being quite serious for a game of this magnitude.  

    Many of the new events have nodes that do not work.  Zacama and Elenda's nodes on Battle of the Four Tribes are still broken.  I've seen people say that Azor's Gateway and Azor still use their abilities if you have the Immortal Sun out, and/or if they have the Immortal Sun out.  Tishana's ability buff doesn't apply the second time she uses it on the same creature.  The Around the World event (whatever it's actually called) still gives the wrong number of coalition ribbons on the second node.

    And now there's a ton of discussion about how Jaya doesn't work properly, how leader may or may not be working properly, how enabling a card still may not be working properly, how the timing of "when attacking" abilities may not be working properly...ect

    So its simple.  I'm done defending Oktagon.  The honeymoon is over.
    I don't want to say they are as bad as Hibernium yet, but I'm not going to lie, its getting close.  Hibernium's bugs were more serious, true (since those cards just crashed the game), but I don't remember them being even close to this frequent.  It seems like every single rare or mythic that comes out from Oktagon is bugged in some way, and every update just buggs out more and more older cards that had been working fine (did you know you can't cast Nagging Thoughts anymore?  It just gets the red canceled symbol.  I cannot find what allows it to trigger.  And Awaken does not work at all anymore.  And Grovetender Druid still makes the wrong type of plant tokens.  And I'm sure there are more, I just haven't found them yet because I don't play legacy a lot).

    So please Oktagon.  Get your tinykitty together.  Because you just lost a very vocal supporter.  Stop putting out cards that don't work correctly.  Stop releasing updates without testing how it will effect older cards.  Stop writing cards in a way that implies one thing but code them to do something else.  We can wait a little longer for new content, its ok to tell us that the next set is delayed because you are fixing bugs.  Please, Please, Please, ENOUGH WITH THE BUGS.
    woah, this is news to me.  I didn't realize things were getting so bad.  Then again, I must confess...I've been playing a lot of other games recently ;)

    I feel like a lot of these things could be minimized if we had (I know I've said this before) more back-and-forth with Octagon.  Public relations is important, especially when this forum is the central hub of information that mtgpq frequently links to in the game.

    Even when a company is like "oops! we screwed up again! sorry sorry sorry!" players are more likely to have more patience, because we feel that our concerns are being heard and looked into.
  • Blazer
    Blazer Posts: 84 Match Maker
    I'm starting to think they have no way of testing these things in a vacuum before they actually implement them so no actual QA/QC. I run a QA department and if I had 10% of these mistakes i'd be fired in a day. "We'll have to do the launch and then play catch up" model. With so many bug fixes and working on new content with a probably very limited staff and a language barrier it's probably like they're staring up a huge mountain and not sure of the best way up so they just keep plodding along with no real path. I love this game and have spent more money than I care to admit but I have been thinking more about what I get out of it and why I play. I love deck building and playing with themes, but with the bugs, inconsistencies between cards, and their ability to stifle creativity (no place to reasonably test my new standard decks, deckslot restrictions, etc...) i'm getting less and less satisfaction with the grind.

    P.S. Just to reiterate I do love this game and hope for the best for it!
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
    Blazer said:
    I'm starting to think they have no way of testing these things in a vacuum before they actually implement them so no actual QA/QC. I run a QA department and if I had 10% of these mistakes i'd be fired in a day. "We'll have to do the launch and then play catch up" model. With so many bug fixes and working on new content with a probably very limited staff and a language barrier it's probably like they're staring up a huge mountain and not sure of the best way up so they just keep plodding along with no real path. I love this game and have spent more money than I care to admit but I have been thinking more about what I get out of it and why I play. I love deck building and playing with themes, but with the bugs, inconsistencies between cards, and their ability to stifle creativity (no place to reasonably test my new standard decks, deckslot restrictions, etc...) i'm getting less and less satisfaction with the grind.

    P.S. Just to reiterate I do love this game and hope for the best for it!
    Its funny, I remember people saying the same thing back in the Hibernium days.

    There were people here who would offer to be Beta testers and forum reps (pre-Brigby), but they were never taken up on it.
  • James13
    James13 Posts: 665 Critical Contributor
    Mburn7 said:

    There were people here who would offer to be Beta testers and forum reps (pre-Brigby), but they were never taken up on it.
    You say that like it's a trivial thing to set up a separate server, distribute alternative code worldwide, and solicit and translate feedback.  There's a reason most testing is done in-house.  We have methods of flagging bugs in the current build via forums and the in-app system.
  • Blazer
    Blazer Posts: 84 Match Maker
    James13 said:
    Mburn7 said:

    There were people here who would offer to be Beta testers and forum reps (pre-Brigby), but they were never taken up on it.
    You say that like it's a trivial thing to set up a separate server, distribute alternative code worldwide, and solicit and translate feedback.  There's a reason most testing is done in-house.  We have methods of flagging bugs in the current build via forums and the in-app system.
    Have you seen anything to suggest there is "in-house" testing, some of these bugs you would catch the first time you cast them.
  • FindingHeart8
    FindingHeart8 Posts: 2,731 Chairperson of the Boards
    Blazer said:
    James13 said:
    Mburn7 said:

    There were people here who would offer to be Beta testers and forum reps (pre-Brigby), but they were never taken up on it.
    You say that like it's a trivial thing to set up a separate server, distribute alternative code worldwide, and solicit and translate feedback.  There's a reason most testing is done in-house.  We have methods of flagging bugs in the current build via forums and the in-app system.
    Have you seen anything to suggest there is "in-house" testing, some of these bugs you would catch the first time you cast them.
    I would imagine that they'd have to have done some basic in-house testing, just to make sure things like when each card with new mechanics is cast/attacks/dies it doesn't freeze/crash the game, etc.

    That being said (remembering Ixalan not-so-fondly) I wouldn't wager a significant amount of time is devoted to testing.
  • Theros
    Theros Posts: 490 Mover and Shaker
    I tend to give Octagon the benefit of the doubt since they're trying to catch up. Just recently they fixed some issues with supports and the infinite thingy.

    My problem with bugs is when they interfere with PvP games. First of all, Octagon must fix all the sins made by Hybernum in concerning PvP rewards; they are heavily focused on individual rewards and the distribution is quite bad. Coalition rewards should get more emphasis instead and here is why.
    Just lost 2 points in HOD due to inconsistency of the Eldest Reborn and settle the wreckage. I was even lucky the game did not crash on me due to random bugs or zooming.
    Apparently each point loss put you at 10 rank lower. Whenever your game crashes or lose 2 pints or more, motivation is loss and there is really no point in continuing further. The effort isn't worth it if you cannot make it top 25. At the same time the coalition rewards are too little to worth the grind except for team glory.

    In a buggy environment more focus should be on coalition rewards., This will alleviate the woes we're experience with bugs.  Bugs should not coexist with competitive play



  • MiyagiDojo
    MiyagiDojo Posts: 24 Just Dropped In
    edited July 2018
    At first, new players are perplex to see a game that carries MTG on it's name having so many serious bugs. Then they discover the first developer just closed the doors. 

    Choose a company that was about to die was certainly cheaper than hire a solid one. So maybe the new dev doesn't have the know how and experience to design card games, especially to handle the technical aspect of it; or no, maybe they are good but aren't paid enough to do their best, especially when a lot of mistakes were inherited from the old dev. Who knows?

    On both options, we intuit there's little investment from the Publisher. Although everything is so expensive for the players. 

    So what's a natural response from a new player to this state of things? It goes from zero money investment to a gradual disengagement. That's unfortunate.
  • babar3355
    babar3355 Posts: 1,128 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some people were begging the developers to start over from scratch on the code.  Others espoused how expensive and time consuming that would be.  Looks like it was worth the time and cost, because Oktagon is clearly having a hard time adjusting to Hibernium's existing code.

    A problem I have with the game is the general lack of caring by the developers.  There have been a few bugs that they are "aware" of that have existed since the very early days of the game.  Additionally, other games work quickly to provide quick patch fixes, but we only ever see that in cases of serious game disruption.  Usually we wait months or longer before bugs are addressed.  That seems odd to me.
  • rafalele
    rafalele Posts: 876 Critical Contributor
    edited July 2018
    Three examples of the lack of caring. 

    1. Objective to kill x creatures: bug that does not count the creatures killed in the last turn if they were killed in the battle (if they were killed in the last turn by an spell they count)
    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/61611/last-turn-doesnt-count
    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/62625/creatures-with-defender-killed-in-combat-last-turn
    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/710744
    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/73029/killing-creature-in-battle-bug

    2. Objective win with les than x health points: bug that increments the health points somewhere between the end of the battle and when ribbons screen appears.
    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/59404/nodes-of-power-bug
    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/665127
    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/71489/objective-win-with-x-or-less-hp-bug-related-to-life-gain

    3. Flusterstorm buffed in 2.5 version without changing the wording (Read in Card Balance adjustments, masterpiece section, Flusterstorm: Initial shield changed to 6. Now always drains 4 mana each turn). Works well but the card shows the old text.
    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/71172/2-5-release-notes-3-13-18
  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,259 Chairperson of the Boards
    Welcome to the club. A lot of us definitely feel your frustration. We gave Oktagon a significant amount of rope, yet still..

    Certainly, some things are probably challenging. Maybe they're throwing their hands in the air about Settle the Wreckage, or how to fix the "support's effect becomes permanent if you exile it".

    But there are very simple numerical changes that could be accomplished in less than an hour, like the amount of damage Verix's support does or the amount of ribbons awarded in AWR, or Vraska's targeting issues, or Angrath not being able to steal all tokens with his second ability.

    Look, we all understand somethings things are difficult or hard to track down. We have empathy. But fixing minor, easily reconcilable issues? That should be a priority. Instead, they keep piling up.




  • Theros
    Theros Posts: 490 Mover and Shaker
    babar3355 said:
    Some people were begging the developers to start over from scratch on the code.  Others espoused how expensive and time consuming that would be.  Looks like it was worth the time and cost, because Oktagon is clearly having a hard time adjusting to Hibernium's existing code.

    A problem I have with the game is the general lack of caring by the developers.  There have been a few bugs that they are "aware" of that have existed since the very early days of the game.  Additionally, other games work quickly to provide quick patch fixes, but we only ever see that in cases of serious game disruption.  Usually we wait months or longer before bugs are addressed.  That seems odd to me.
    I've experienced same issues with another card game. They went through the scenario as mtgpq with bugs and change of team. In the end, they had to change the entire game engine and redo the coding.

    I would  advice Octagon to change event objectives like some mentioned by rafalele to objectives that are not affected by bugs. Coincidentally those are objectives that gave us grievance for too long 
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
    madwren said:

    Look, we all understand somethings things are difficult or hard to track down. We have empathy. But fixing minor, easily reconcilable issues? That should be a priority. Instead, they keep piling up.


    That's really my main issue here:  the little things.  Of course splashy mythics won't always work right, and new events will always have issues.

    But simple things like saying 2 damage and actually dealing 2 damage, or saying "get +2/+0 and then deal damage" and having them trigger in that order are pretty simple things.  To send out a finished product to your paying customers that fails to do those things correctly or worse, that takes those things that were done correctly and make them incorrect is horrifying.  If I did that at my job I would be fired in a month or less.  How do the employees at Oktagon keep their jobs doing this?  Do they have no Quality Control?  No Play Testers?  Its infuriating.
  • FindingHeart8
    FindingHeart8 Posts: 2,731 Chairperson of the Boards
    ^^^^ this with emphasizing the lack of communication.

    See, I was ready to grab a pitchfork and torch and pillage the nearest castle.  But your in-depth story Brigby calmed me down and made me think about it a bit more rationally.  Lots of communication goes a long ways in a positive direction :)
  • Brigby
    Brigby ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 7,757 Site Admin
    @Mburn7 I totally understand why players would be upset, especially if it's a card they use frequently. Seeing it function in a manner that doesn't follow its wording can be confusing and frustrating, and I apologize for that inconvenience.

    As I mentioned before, this is purely my speculation as to how they test. If that is the correct test method though, then I believe bugs like Verix Bladewing's token are an unfortunate result of testing overall mechanics, as opposed to individual cards.

    The ability to deal damage on entrance works correctly. Damage dealt by that ability works correctly. The ability to convert gems to a specific color works. Once you combine all three together into Verix Bladewing's token though, then that's where the bug occurs. 

    I honestly believe that is one of the biggest challenges the team faces. How do you efficiently test ~2,000 cards each time you receive a new QA build, especially when MtGPQ is a live game; not a standalone one.

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