Supports - Spider-Sense (6/5/18)

Dormammu

HoundofShadow said:

Support is here to stay. So, you have to live with the existence of supports. 

Vaulting was here to stay, too.

DAZ0273

Dormammu said:

HoundofShadow said:

Support is here to stay. So, you have to live with the existence of supports. 

Vaulting was here to stay, too.

And Wins Based PvP!

JHawkInc

Dormammu said:

HoundofShadow said:

Support is here to stay. So, you have to live with the existence of supports. 

Vaulting was here to stay, too.

Didn't this game already go through vaulting and then un-vaulting several years ago? Making this statement objectively false?

Blindman13

JHawkInc said:

Dormammu said:

HoundofShadow said:

Support is here to stay. So, you have to live with the existence of supports. 

Vaulting was here to stay, too.

Didn't this game already go through vaulting and then un-vaulting several years ago? Making this statement objectively false?

That's the point of the statement. Sarcasm.
HoundOfShadow claims that supports are a permanent fixture in the game. Domammu is pointing out that at one time vaulting was a permanent fixture until it wasn't. Meaning Supports could be taken away.
The problem with this line of thinking is that there are some poor misguided souls who have invested resources in getting supports, possibly even cold hard cash. The rest of us have potentially missed out on other rewards because we receive support tokens and red ISO instead.
If they were to take away supports there would have to be a massive compensation to the entire player base. It would also mean the Devs would be admitting they wasted a large amount of time and resources. It is far more likely that they will be abandoned and only featured at certain times; much like boosts.

Spudgutter

Blindman13 said:

JHawkInc said:

Dormammu said:

HoundofShadow said:

Support is here to stay. So, you have to live with the existence of supports. 

Vaulting was here to stay, too.

Didn't this game already go through vaulting and then un-vaulting several years ago? Making this statement objectively false?

That's the point of the statement. Sarcasm.
HoundOfShadow claims that supports are a permanent fixture in the game. Domammu is pointing out that at one time vaulting was a permanent fixture until it wasn't. Meaning Supports could be taken away.
The problem with this line of thinking is that there are some poor misguided souls who have invested resources in getting supports, possibly even cold hard cash. The rest of us have potentially missed out on other rewards because we receive support tokens and red ISO instead.
If they were to take away supports there would have to be a massive compensation to the entire player base. It would also mean the Devs would be admitting they wasted a large amount of time and resources. It is far more likely that they will be abandoned and only featured at certain times; much like boosts.

I was with you up to the compensation part.  Why would we need *massive* compensation? What makes you think that instead of red iso or a support draw you would have gotten anything other than a 2* or iso?  People asking for compensation when its not deserved is why we cant have nice things anymore. 

Look at fixing the feeder at 3* and 4* level.  They have literally said they haven't updated them (even though they are loooong overdue) because people have been planning or using BH to aim gor a certain thing.  They basically dont want to pull the rug out from them, because they will come on here and demand "compensation."  And yet, because of this, i miss out on updated feeders because of this weird sense of entitlement these days. 

Back to supports, though.  We want the devs to try new things.  We hate when the game gets stagnant, and any attempt to improve should be met with open arms, and judged with constructive feedback.  I've given my 2 cents on supports several times now, i wont rehash them.  But its comments like these that i think are a detriment, and are possibly why things dont change as often as some wish they would.

JHawkInc

My point is that it doesn't matter if it's sarcastic or serious because it's wrong. Because vaulting never was considered a permanent fixture, and never meant to be considered a permanent fixture either (because it's already come and gone more than once already).

It's like saying "We removed that big heavy desk (Vaulting), so that means we can un-build the third floor we added to this building (Supports)." It's not equivalent. The two things aren't comparable. And to top it off, we've already moved the desk once, so you can't even try to make an argument that it is equally permanent.

It's a false equivalence only meant to deride another user's opinion, and that doesn't get us anywhere regardless of what you think about Supports.

Spudgutter

JHawkInc said:

My point is that it doesn't matter if it's sarcastic or serious because it's wrong. Because vaulting never was considered a permanent fixture, and never meant to be considered a permanent fixture either (because it's already come and gone more than once already).

It's like saying "We removed that big heavy desk (Vaulting), so that means we can un-build the third floor we added to this building (Supports)." It's not equivalent. The two things aren't comparable. And to top it off, we've already moved the desk once, so you can't even try to make an argument that it is equally permanent.

It's a false equivalence only meant to deride another user's opinion, and that doesn't get us anywhere regardless of what you think about Supports.

And also bow did you know vaulting wasnt permanent? When it came around, it was the end of the world for some people because the older characters were locked out aside from BH and rewards. 

**Removed inappropriate content - Ducky

HoundofShadow

Actually, the devs did mention:

but part of what motivated this feature was thinking about what would let us continue to add exciting new things to the game for many years.

So, it seems that they might have laid out a long term plan when they decided to go all out for supports. The key word is: long term plan.

Long term plan doesn't happen in an instance. It takes time to realise the vision. For those seeking instant gratification, you will continue to be disappointed by supports. 

Regardless of how much you hate/dislike support, it is here to stay, and the devs mentioned that they would be adding more supports all year round.

Blindman13

Spudgutter said:

Blindman13 said:

JHawkInc said:

Dormammu said:

HoundofShadow said:

Support is here to stay. So, you have to live with the existence of supports. 

Vaulting was here to stay, too.

Didn't this game already go through vaulting and then un-vaulting several years ago? Making this statement objectively false?

That's the point of the statement. Sarcasm.
HoundOfShadow claims that supports are a permanent fixture in the game. Domammu is pointing out that at one time vaulting was a permanent fixture until it wasn't. Meaning Supports could be taken away.
The problem with this line of thinking is that there are some poor misguided souls who have invested resources in getting supports, possibly even cold hard cash. The rest of us have potentially missed out on other rewards because we receive support tokens and red ISO instead.
If they were to take away supports there would have to be a massive compensation to the entire player base. It would also mean the Devs would be admitting they wasted a large amount of time and resources. It is far more likely that they will be abandoned and only featured at certain times; much like boosts.

I was with you up to the compensation part.  Why would we need *massive* compensation? What makes you think that instead of red iso or a support draw you would have gotten anything other than a 2* or iso?  People asking for compensation when its not deserved is why we cant have nice things anymore. 

Look at fixing the feeder at 3* and 4* level.  They have literally said they haven't updated them (even though they are loooong overdue) because people have been planning or using BH to aim gor a certain thing.  They basically dont want to pull the rug out from them, because they will come on here and demand "compensation."  And yet, because of this, i miss out on updated feeders because of this weird sense of entitlement these days. 

Back to supports, though.  We want the devs to try new things.  We hate when the game gets stagnant, and any attempt to improve should be met with open arms, and judged with constructive feedback.  I've given my 2 cents on supports several times now, i wont rehash them.  But its comments like these that i think are a detriment, and are possibly why things dont change as often as some wish they would.

I should have been more clear.  I assume if they announced that they were removing supports from the game, there would be a very vocal minority that would clamor for compensation. I said massive because anything they did would have to apply to every player. Compensation or not, it would look really bad for them to have spent time developing this feature only to remove it later, so I don;t expect that will happen. 
Personally, I would not be one of the people complaining (now or then).  I remain cautiously optimistic about supports. I have them all assigned to the characters I use more frequently, and i like the little bonuses I get even if they aren't huge game changers.

TL;DR - @HoundofShadow is probably right supports are not likely to go away
            - @Dormammu is also right in that nothing should be assumed to be permanent
            - @JHawkInc missed the point of the joke, but that's OK
and I just enjoy playing MPQ, even when I disagree with decisions made by the developers. 

Calnexin

DarthDeVo said:

Calnexin said: They may as well have designed a "palette swap" feature.  A pink hulk is at least amusing to look at.

This is neither her nor there, but my wife frequently jokes that if she gets hangry enough, she'll turn into a pink Hulk. So nice choice of color.

I secretly (well, not anymore) hope that this is the next iteration of the Gweniverse.

Nick441234

I guess no free tokens this time either. Makes this even more pointless. 

Hadronic

__________________________________

HoundofShadow

I suppose they don't give free tokens if the new supports contain only 1 new  support. They didn't give us free tokens for Okoye as well.  But when new supports are released in a bunch, they did give us free tokens.

thedarkphoenix

Pro tip d3

people won’t really care about supports until they work in pvp

smkspy

HoundofShadow said:

Actually, the devs did mention:

but part of what motivated this feature was thinking about what would let us continue to add exciting new things to the game for many years.

So, it seems that they might have laid out a long term plan when they decided to go all out for supports. The key word is: long term plan.

Long term plan doesn't happen in an instance. It takes time to realise the vision. For those seeking instant gratification, you will continue to be disappointed by supports. 

Regardless of how much you hate/dislike support, it is here to stay, and the devs mentioned that they would be adding more supports all year round.

Having a long term plan is one thing, but players just wanting to earn supports (even lousy basic supports) that doesn't require pure rng luck or overly expensive pay-walls is not entitlement.

**Removed inappropriate content - Ducky

HoundofShadow

They have been giving free Beginner and Advanced Tokens. I think there's a total of about 11 given out. I understand some of you like to use the paywall argument but the fact is, if they really want to put a paywall, they won't be giving out free Beginner/Advanced tokens. I understand some of the veteran expects free Master Tokens but let's be realistic, it's their job to make sure that their business objectives are met. 

DarthDeVo

HoundofShadow said:

They have been giving free Beginner and Advanced Tokens. I think there's a total of about 11 given out. I understand some of you like to use the paywall argument but the fact is, if they really want to put a paywall, they won't be giving out free Beginner/Advanced tokens. I understand some of the veteran expects free Master Tokens but let's be realistic, it's their job to make sure that their business objectives are met. 

Again, speaking just for myself, I'm not expecting free Master tokens, or really any free tokens at all. The ones they've given us are appreciated. 

What I'm looking for is a reliable way beyond RNG or their random gifts to get tokens. And enough RISO to make them useful. 

We can't get them in PvE placement or progression. We can't get them in PvP placement or progression. They're not in the Sim or season progression. I believe the only way to earn them is through PvP season placement. For T25 (in CL8, anyway).

Since a random token will come from an event vault every few months on average, and RISO is so sparse, Supports (for me) are largely out of sight, out of mind. 

Dormammu

For the record, I don't think Supports are going to vanish from the game. But I also have some +10% Damage to Mutants boosts from 4 years ago which haven't left the game, either.

Waddles_Pines

Dormammu said:

For the record, I don't think Supports are going to vanish from the game. But I also have some +10% Damage to Mutants boosts from 4 years ago which haven't left the game, either.

I see your +10% damage to mutants, and raise you +150% damage to maggia/hammer 

Felonius

Another Support?  Meh.  >shrug<