Legacy Booster Crafting

span_argoman

ArielSira said:

And how is that a reason to up the price of Legacy? It has less uses than Origins, to make it cheaper or targetable changes nothing but the time it takes to gather enough orbs. It's still a pile that takes years to gather. Making Legacy 4000-4500 would be a massive waste of orbs seeing its so close to Standard sets.

What I meant was that maybe there could be two options in the game for crafting Legacy cards.

One would be the already existing option to craft from Legacy as one set at 3,000 Orbs. The second option would be to be able to select crafting from a specific Legacy set, but having to pay say 4,000 Orbs to craft a Mythic instead.

So people who are aiming to collect all Legacy cards can go for the 3,000 Orbs options whereas people who want specific Legacy cards can go for the 4,000 Orbs option. That gives players meaningful choices on how to spend their Orbs on Legacy.

ifsandbuts

I 100% agree with making the crafting target, but let me get this out of the way for all of the "this game shouldn't be fun" folks...

"This is socialism"

"I paid a lot of money for pig two years ago, so you don't deserve it"

"This will unbalance tg and the pves"

"F2P folks should go sit in a hole"

"You shouldn't (eventually) be able to collect every card in a collectible card game, duh"

"New cards def don't give people a rush that keeps them coming back"

I tried to argue this before, but the people who pay a lot of money to get a digital license for a card a month early don't like this idea. It would make them feel less special.

FindingHeart8

ifsandbuts said:

I 100% agree with making the crafting target, but let me get this out of the way for all of the "this game shouldn't be fun" folks...

"This is socialism"

"I paid a lot of money for pig two years ago, so you don't deserve it"

"This will unbalance tg and the pves"

"F2P folks should go sit in a hole"

"You shouldn't (eventually) be able to collect every card in a collectible card game, duh"

"New cards def don't give people a rush that keeps them coming back"

I tried to argue this before, but the people who pay a lot of money to get a digital license for a card a month early don't like this idea. It would make them feel less special.

uhh, several of your quoted statements seem to conflict with each other...

Mburn7

ifsandbuts said:

I 100% agree with making the crafting target, but let me get this out of the way for all of the "this game shouldn't be fun" folks...

"This is socialism"

"I paid a lot of money for pig two years ago, so you don't deserve it"

"This will unbalance tg and the pves"

"F2P folks should go sit in a hole"

"You shouldn't (eventually) be able to collect every card in a collectible card game, duh"

"New cards def don't give people a rush that keeps them coming back"

I tried to argue this before, but the people who pay a lot of money to get a digital license for a card a month early don't like this idea. It would make them feel less special.

First of all, nobody paid for the pig, it wasn't an exclusive (Olivia is another story).  And I don't think anyone is arguing that since a card was exclusive 2 years ago it shouldn't be lootable.  Hell, cards are now being offered for cash that are also available in packs, and I haven't seen a single complaint.

Second of all, as someone who frequently makes similar arguments I don't like the "game shouldn't be fun" descriptor.  These kinds of arguments (which you are exaggerating anyway) are arguing that the fun of the game is in the chase of new things, not the use of them. 

Everybody having every card is bad for the game because then everyone is forced to make the same few super-efficient and optimized decks (see paper standard tournaments for reference).  It also reduces fun, because its hard to be motivated to create and test new decks when you can just put the same few super-powered cards in every deck.

Targeted legacy crafting would not be a bad thing per se, it is the consequence of this that is so potentially bad.  Shadows over Innistrad was probably the most overpowered set ever in MTGPQ, and it only has about a dozen mythics total (almost all of them are chase cards for those who do not have them).  Its a safe bet that if legacy crafting could target sets everyone would have the Deploy/Olivia/Piggie combo inside of a month.  Legacy events would be awful (see above).  Going forward this wouldn't be as big of an issue, since all blocks after SOI were large ones (in PQ, anyway), so there is no real downside to being able to aim specifically for Aether Revolt cards (for example).  But because of how the game was run in the beginning it would be irresponsible to make every legacy set individually targetable.

FindingHeart8

Mburn7 said:

ifsandbuts said:

I 100% agree with making the crafting target, but let me get this out of the way for all of the "this game shouldn't be fun" folks...

"This is socialism"

"I paid a lot of money for pig two years ago, so you don't deserve it"

"This will unbalance tg and the pves"

"F2P folks should go sit in a hole"

"You shouldn't (eventually) be able to collect every card in a collectible card game, duh"

"New cards def don't give people a rush that keeps them coming back"

I tried to argue this before, but the people who pay a lot of money to get a digital license for a card a month early don't like this idea. It would make them feel less special.

First of all, nobody paid for the pig, it wasn't an exclusive (Olivia is another story).  And I don't think anyone is arguing that since a card was exclusive 2 years ago it shouldn't be lootable.  Hell, cards are now being offered for cash that are also available in packs, and I haven't seen a single complaint.

Second of all, as someone who frequently makes similar arguments I don't like the "game shouldn't be fun" descriptor.  These kinds of arguments (which you are exaggerating anyway) are arguing that the fun of the game is in the chase of new things, not the use of them. 

Everybody having every card is bad for the game because then everyone is forced to make the same few super-efficient and optimized decks (see paper standard tournaments for reference).  It also reduces fun, because its hard to be motivated to create and test new decks when you can just put the same few super-powered cards in every deck.

Targeted legacy crafting would not be a bad thing per se, it is the consequence of this that is so potentially bad.  Shadows over Innistrad was probably the most overpowered set ever in MTGPQ, and it only has about a dozen mythics total (almost all of them are chase cards for those who do not have them).  Its a safe bet that if legacy crafting could target sets everyone would have the Deploy/Olivia/Piggie combo inside of a month.  Legacy events would be awful (see above).  Going forward this wouldn't be as big of an issue, since all blocks after SOI were large ones (in PQ, anyway), so there is no real downside to being able to aim specifically for Aether Revolt cards (for example).  But because of how the game was run in the beginning it would be irresponsible to make every legacy set individually targetable.

I'm kinda wondering if he was trolling, the original comment was short with no explanation, almost intentionally offensive, and some of the statements contradicted each other.

Mburn7

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

ifsandbuts said:

I 100% agree with making the crafting target, but let me get this out of the way for all of the "this game shouldn't be fun" folks...

"This is socialism"

"I paid a lot of money for pig two years ago, so you don't deserve it"

"This will unbalance tg and the pves"

"F2P folks should go sit in a hole"

"You shouldn't (eventually) be able to collect every card in a collectible card game, duh"

"New cards def don't give people a rush that keeps them coming back"

I tried to argue this before, but the people who pay a lot of money to get a digital license for a card a month early don't like this idea. It would make them feel less special.

First of all, nobody paid for the pig, it wasn't an exclusive (Olivia is another story).  And I don't think anyone is arguing that since a card was exclusive 2 years ago it shouldn't be lootable.  Hell, cards are now being offered for cash that are also available in packs, and I haven't seen a single complaint.

Second of all, as someone who frequently makes similar arguments I don't like the "game shouldn't be fun" descriptor.  These kinds of arguments (which you are exaggerating anyway) are arguing that the fun of the game is in the chase of new things, not the use of them. 

Everybody having every card is bad for the game because then everyone is forced to make the same few super-efficient and optimized decks (see paper standard tournaments for reference).  It also reduces fun, because its hard to be motivated to create and test new decks when you can just put the same few super-powered cards in every deck.

Targeted legacy crafting would not be a bad thing per se, it is the consequence of this that is so potentially bad.  Shadows over Innistrad was probably the most overpowered set ever in MTGPQ, and it only has about a dozen mythics total (almost all of them are chase cards for those who do not have them).  Its a safe bet that if legacy crafting could target sets everyone would have the Deploy/Olivia/Piggie combo inside of a month.  Legacy events would be awful (see above).  Going forward this wouldn't be as big of an issue, since all blocks after SOI were large ones (in PQ, anyway), so there is no real downside to being able to aim specifically for Aether Revolt cards (for example).  But because of how the game was run in the beginning it would be irresponsible to make every legacy set individually targetable.

I'm kinda wondering if he was trolling, the original comment was short with no explanation, almost intentionally offensive, and some of the statements contradicted each other.

I hope not, I hate trolls.  But I do enjoy shutting down trolls anyway, so I'm fine with my response either way.

Theros

Coilbox said:

training grounds is full already with pigs, olivias and barals and everything...
And as you guys say, these cards are only of any use in training grounds, which is not much of a problem. It's just a little daily event with infinite charges. 
what's the trouble..? would it be really 'that' bad? seriously? 

Beautiful argument. Making every legacy targetable won't make legacy pvp worst than it already is. legacy is strong but very beatable with standard sets. TG with infinite recharges is meant for testing decks, not competitive play. it
 shouldn't be an argument against lowering legacy prices.
3000 orb for legacy is silly. it's wiser to spend them on legacy rares or save for mythic.
People have  different preferences but I can't imagine myself chasing legacy cards; they have no value to me.

ifsandbuts

Mburn7 said:

Its a safe bet that if legacy crafting could target sets everyone would have the Deploy/Olivia/Piggie combo inside of a month.  Legacy events would be awful (see above).

These die to removal.

Also, if pig and olivia are so obnoxious and awful, I hope you are leading the pack by not playing them. You never play them, right?

span_argoman

Theros said:

Coilbox said:

training grounds is full already with pigs, olivias and barals and everything...
And as you guys say, these cards are only of any use in training grounds, which is not much of a problem. It's just a little daily event with infinite charges. 
what's the trouble..? would it be really 'that' bad? seriously? 

Beautiful argument. Making every legacy targetable won't make legacy pvp worst than it already is. legacy is strong but very beatable with standard sets. TG with infinite recharges is meant for testing decks, not competitive play. it
 shouldn't be an argument against lowering legacy prices.
3000 orb for legacy is silly. it's wiser to spend them on legacy rares or save for mythic.
People have  different preferences but I can't imagine myself chasing legacy cards; they have no value to me.

3,000 Orbs is for crafting a Legacy Mythic. What do you mean by save for a Mythic?

If chasing Legacy cards have no value to you, why are you here in the discussion for debating possible options for those who do value Legacy cards? It doesn't matter to you whether they cost 3,000 or 10,000 to craft then.

Gilesclone

Apparently, d3go feels like 3000 works for them.  I would guess if they want to increase demand for those mythics, they’ll lower the price.

Of all the problems with this game, this is extremely low on my list. I’m missing 91 legacy mythics. Even at 2000, I wouldn’t waste my orbs.

Coilbox

To be honest, the cost is not the problem for me, i mean, 3k orbs i dont mind to spend on a mythic, i don't see it like too much... the problem is having to pull from a 80+ card pool that contains cards im not interested at all.
Whats the trouble about separating sets...? no one has given a good reason for not doing it, most of us already have very powerful legacy cards and decks. To me, getting olivia wouldn't make a big difference, probably wouldn't even change my decks so much, but having them would at least give me the opportunity to try some variety in legacy from time to time.
Its more a collection interest rather than looking to be more competitive, whats the point on trying to be more competitive in TG? you only need 4 victories and you have neverending charges. 

jtwood

It should also be super cheap to craft Legacy since you don’t use them as much. This is a broad declaration: they should be cheap to craft and to purchase packs. 

Mburn7

jtwood said:

It should also be super cheap to craft Legacy since you don’t use them as much. This is a broad declaration: they should be cheap to craft and to purchase packs. 

They already are cheap to craft.  And I agree they should match Origin's cost for packs.

jtwood

Mburn7 said:

jtwood said:

It should also be super cheap to craft Legacy since you don’t use them as much. This is a broad declaration: they should be cheap to craft and to purchase packs. 

They already are cheap to craft.  And I agree they should match Origin's cost for packs.

I think both of those costs - crafting and packs - are still too high. Legacy events are low-ROI these days. Their cost of acquisition should be equally low. 

khurram

jtwood said:

Mburn7 said:

jtwood said:

It should also be super cheap to craft Legacy since you don’t use them as much. This is a broad declaration: they should be cheap to craft and to purchase packs. 

They already are cheap to craft.  And I agree they should match Origin's cost for packs.

I think both of those costs - crafting and packs - are still too high. Legacy events are low-ROI these days. Their cost of acquisition should be equally low. 

Or they can, you know, increase the content where we can use legacy.

More legacy events with better rewards.

Stormbringer0

I would love me some highly rewarded legacy events! This format is underplayed. They should make Standard and Legacy more clear ans separated from each other in the game.

If this is not happening, I don't even think about crafting cards for Legacy. Heck, I don't come close to the Mythics I want and need for Standard!

FindingHeart8

Stormbringer0 said:

I would love me some highly rewarded legacy events! This format is underplayed. They should make Standard and Legacy more clear ans separated from each other in the game.

If this is not happening, I don't even think about crafting cards for Legacy. Heck, I don't come close to the Mythics I want and need for Standard!

Legacy definitely needs more attention.  Overpowered or not, all the cards we spent time and money on will eventually phase out (pun intended) to legacy.  I don't like the idea of my hard-earned cards sitting on the shelf for everything except Training Grounds and the occasional NoP

ZW2007-

Mburn7 said:

Everybody having every card is bad for the game because then everyone is forced to make the same few super-efficient and optimized decks (see paper standard tournaments for reference).  It also reduces fun, because its hard to be motivated to create and test new decks when you can just put the same few super-powered cards in every deck.

Targeted legacy crafting would not be a bad thing per se, it is the consequence of this that is so potentially bad.  Shadows over Innistrad was probably the most overpowered set ever in MTGPQ, and it only has about a dozen mythics total (almost all of them are chase cards for those who do not have them).  Its a safe bet that if legacy crafting could target sets everyone would have the Deploy/Olivia/Piggie combo inside of a month.  Legacy events would be awful (see above).  Going forward this wouldn't be as big of an issue, since all blocks after SOI were large ones (in PQ, anyway), so there is no real downside to being able to aim specifically for Aether Revolt cards (for example).  But because of how the game was run in the beginning it would be irresponsible to make every legacy set individually targetable.

This is a weak argument. There are so many cards in this game and such a variety of PWs/PW abilities that no one deck will be this super optimized "one" deck that you so fear. If one deck becomes the dominant strategy, other decks will pop up to counter that, and so on and so on. Please give an example within this game to support your stance. Paper standard tournaments are a completely different animal than PQ.

SOI had 21 mythics and EMN had 13 mythics, all of which were lumped together in one booster pack. So no, there aren't that many more mythics in other blocks compared to SOI. BFZ block has 36 (24+12) and KLD block has 40 (24+16). I don't know that anyone is asking to be able to craft SOI and EMN separately. OP wanted legacy cards craftable by set. The SOI set is SOI+EMN. AKH would actually be the biggest problem from your perspective because it only has 24 mythics since it was the first time they made the large and small sets separate in PQ.

Also, there's still that pesky matter of people needing the Orbs to craft the cards. Making individual Legacy sets targetable won't magically give every Tom, ****, and Harry all the orbs they need to craft every card.

Lastly, I think you guys missed the point @ifsandbuts was trying to make...

FindingHeart8

ZW2007- said:

Mburn7 said:

Everybody having every card is bad for the game because then everyone is forced to make the same few super-efficient and optimized decks (see paper standard tournaments for reference).  It also reduces fun, because its hard to be motivated to create and test new decks when you can just put the same few super-powered cards in every deck.

Targeted legacy crafting would not be a bad thing per se, it is the consequence of this that is so potentially bad.  Shadows over Innistrad was probably the most overpowered set ever in MTGPQ, and it only has about a dozen mythics total (almost all of them are chase cards for those who do not have them).  Its a safe bet that if legacy crafting could target sets everyone would have the Deploy/Olivia/Piggie combo inside of a month.  Legacy events would be awful (see above).  Going forward this wouldn't be as big of an issue, since all blocks after SOI were large ones (in PQ, anyway), so there is no real downside to being able to aim specifically for Aether Revolt cards (for example).  But because of how the game was run in the beginning it would be irresponsible to make every legacy set individually targetable.

This is a weak argument. There are so many cards in this game and such a variety of PWs/PW abilities that no one deck will be this super optimized "one" deck that you so fear. If one deck becomes the dominant strategy, other decks will pop up to counter that, and so on and so on. Please give an example within this game to support your stance. Paper standard tournaments are a completely different animal than PQ.

SOI had 21 mythics and EMN had 13 mythics, all of which were lumped together in one booster pack. So no, there aren't that many more mythics in other blocks compared to SOI. BFZ block has 36 (24+12) and KLD block has 40 (24+16). I don't know that anyone is asking to be able to craft SOI and EMN separately. OP wanted legacy cards craftable by set. The SOI set is SOI+EMN. AKH would actually be the biggest problem from your perspective because it only has 24 mythics since it was the first time they made the large and small sets separate in PQ.

Also, there's still that pesky matter of people needing the Orbs to craft the cards. Making individual Legacy sets targetable won't magically give every Tom, tinykitty, and Harry all the orbs they need to craft every card.

Lastly, I think you guys missed the point @ifsandbuts was trying to make...

I'm on board with keeping legacy as a huge clump, even if it puts me at a disadvantage.  Having the best cards in the game as difficult to maintain is how the game is supposed to be, and still significantly better than how things were pre-booster crafting.

Playing HuF + DtG with the optimized creature selection obtainable in mtgpq, I am yet to lose a match in the ~100 matches I've played with it so far.  I'd imagine players with optimized Olivia decks, Cycling, Kiora green ramp (or if Omniscience hits legacy packs at Return to Ravnica) are having similar experiences.  Including multiple matches against your decks in TG...where I was actually very interested in seeing what your deck had because I'm sure it was well-crafted but I had the opportunity at a turn-2 win and I couldn't say no to it

I got the point of Ifsandbuts 2nd post in this thread, agreed with it, and liked it.  The first one though is admittedly lost to me...

MTG_Mage

I would like to see booster crafting always broken down to each set so you can somewhat narrow down to the card your aiming for. Set/block mechanics vary greatly and you should be able to at least expect to get something in the general area you are wanting to explore further.
If that means that orb costs need to be adjusted for both legacy and standard then that is fine with me.