Please stop blaming the Devs

135

Comments

  • JHawkInc
    JHawkInc Posts: 2,604 Chairperson of the Boards
    At no point is a lack of communication an excuse for toxic behavior.
  • LifeofAgony
    LifeofAgony Posts: 690 Critical Contributor
    Not sure how people can be “mean” on the internet in text, governed by mods and thought police who can edit and remove posts that don’t meet board standards.  

    The devs are adults, who are shockingly paid to do this job.  Part of the job is interacting with customers since they’re in a business reliant upon them.  Not sure why feedback, negative or otheewise, is 99% ignored.
  • Talestummy
    Talestummy Posts: 66 Match Maker
    Who decideda what is toxic and what is not?
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Someone mentioned that most of the players in this forum are adults working in a corporate environment of various industries: IT, finance, business development etc. However, the replies or reactions towards the developers' decisions say so otherwise. 

    Even if the developers continue to answer those questions, as long as there is any instance where some group of players don't get things their way, they will typically react this way:

    1)  The developers' don't listen to players' feedbacks.They are interested only in making money and building paygate. They are money grabs.
    2) The developers don't understand how high level players play or the developers are out of touch with the players. The developers don't understand their own game.
    3) The developers don't understand how to "prioritise" the right tasks.
    4) The developers are building features no one asked for.
    5) The game is dying and many (veteran) players are leaving the game because the developers make terrible decisions or continue to build a paywall that alienates the players.



  • Jrlrma
    Jrlrma Posts: 65 Match Maker
    Theres alot of evidence to suggest that they dont understand the playerbase

    *shrug*
  • NeonBlue
    NeonBlue Posts: 142 Tile Toppler
    edited May 2018
    Borstock said:
    Bowgentle said:
    Borstock said:
    Qubort said:

    This game isn't as big as you think. There's a lot of folks wearing multiple hats to produce this. Overall they do a fine job, but I'll tinykittty on anyone I choose.



    My objection is to the toxicity. Too many people on here are just plain mean.
    But we're not.

    ....

    We've never been toxic while the powers who be talk to us.
    Only after communication stopped for no apparent reason.
    I've seen a lot of evidence to the contrary. Heck, I QUOTED someone who said he'll "tinykitty on" anyone he pleases. How is that NOT toxic language? How is the constant sarcastic remarks about the devs basically being incompetent and not understanding their playerbase or own product?

    Calling a developer stupid is not constructive criticism of the product. It's "tinykittying on" them. When supports came out, there were bugs. They fixed some of the bugs, but how many people just destroyed them because of what else they haven't done that some players think they should do? How many people just posted snarky sarcasm?

    But even if I were to grant you that people aren't toxic when there is communication, which I don't, you're admitting that the threads DO get toxic once communication stops. And I'm sorry, but the behavior of those people is a reflection on them, not on whatever the developers do. It's honestly seriously off-putting even coming here a lot of the time. Maybe it's better on Line or Discord or whichever people use.


    Yeah, there will always be people that complain and threaten the devs regardless of what they do because "internet." Does this mean the devs get a free pass to implement their greedy schemes and ignore the very broken aspects of their game?

    We criticize supports not only because they were implemented poorly and came out of left field at no one's request, but because they fed us excuse after excuse that they were delaying fixes and needed changes because they were prioritizing supports. Now that supports are out, and we have reinforced the opinion that supports are and were a failure, not only in terms of coding and UI, but also in terms of distribution. It's clear to everyone who has kept a close eye that puzzling decisions like limiting infinity stones to the top 1 placement, or selling RISO and tokens in packages and not acquired through play that the intention was to delay what we wanted to make a buck. In the spirit of making that buck, they forego stuff that they can't sell to spend developing things they can, putting their business needs above player needs, so naturally players speak out. 

    Instead of listening to the community that invested in their product, they tried to sell us on something we didn't want while actively ignoring what we do want in order to cash in on a naive or rich players. The Dev's decision making, as in what they choose to focus on and prioritize, is in direct opposition with the interests expressed by the people who pay for their livelihood. While some may not be able to verbalize this frustration in a non-insulting way, it is clear that the devs are either incompetent, villains, or being held at gunpoint to make worst decisions possible.

    In short, people on here are upset because they've chosen inaction and greed over the player experience. They're trying to save face by fixing bugs in something most of the players couldn't care less about while the game itself is suffering. I guarantee you that for instance, if they took 5 minutes out of their "busy" schedules to adjust 5* Gambit's black ability, many players would stop complaining, and they can go back to wasting their efforts on selling the playerbase on supports.
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    Borstock said

    But even if I were to grant you that people aren't toxic when there is communication, which I don't, you're admitting that the threads DO get toxic once communication stops. And I'm sorry, but the behavior of those people is a reflection on them, not on whatever the developers do. It's honestly seriously off-putting even coming here a lot of the time. Maybe it's better on Line or Discord or whichever people use.



    People are going to get toxic online, regardless.   In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes(and now online toxicity).

    That doesn't mean they can use it as an excuse to not engage with us at all
  • JHawkInc
    JHawkInc Posts: 2,604 Chairperson of the Boards
    CaptainFreaky said:
    JHawkInc said:
    At no point is a lack of communication an excuse for toxic behavior.
    Hmm - i'm not sure about that.  In your personal life, if someone "shuts up" on you (or ghosts you as the kids say) it's actually normal to feel hurt or confused or have other negative emotions.  And in that scenario, you have two choices:
    (1) Accept & move on
    (2) Fight

    For choice (1) it basically means leaving the Forum or the Game itself.  
    For choice (2) you see people being passionate about what they see as mistakes from their point of view.  Does this lead to some sarcasm and "toxicity" at times? You betcha.  Obviously it's best to be constructive rather than destructive, but y'know, this is an internet forum with everything that comes with it.

    But I applaud the people who choose #2 (Fight) because they appreciate the game and generally want it to improve (again from their point of play or view). 

    You can fight without being toxic.

    At no point is toxicity required or even useful to "fight the good fight" and get things done. It's a waste of effort that does nothing but bring people down.

    Being an internet forum is not an excuse for toxicity. People being passionate about the game is not an excuse for toxicity. Hateful insults and snide remarks are not constructive criticism, and we shouldn't defend them.

    The only thing you guarantee by defending people that fight with toxicity is more of the same. Why would you choose to be part of the problem instead of the solution? Why would you stand there and say it's okay for people to be toxic sometimes instead of being an adult and saying that it's not okay to treat other humans this way?
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    It seems that many don't understand these facts:

    1) For every player that wants X task to be solved, another wants Y task to be solved, another Z task. Every players think that their problems deserve to be on the priority to-do list. The reality outside of this forum is players are "fighting" against each other to gain the attention of the developers. Some "win" and some "lose". It's not inaction from the developers' part, it's simply because other players "won" and were put on top to-do list and you were relegated to the bottom. 

    2) Voices in the forum does not represent the entire or majority of the playerbase. It's time to stop deluding yourself that you deserve the highest priority. There's another huge part of the universe besides this forum that the developers are getting players' feedbacks from: in-game feedbacks, emails, facebook, twitter and whatever channels they have available. 

    3) Solving bugs and/or re-balancing characters is not simply changing a few lines of codes and the problem will be magically solved in a few minutes. It's time to wake up and smell reality. Processes possibly take weeks or even months. 


  • Straycat
    Straycat Posts: 963 Critical Contributor
    CaptainFreaky said:
    JHawkInc said:
    At no point is a lack of communication an excuse for toxic behavior.
    Hmm - i'm not sure about that.  In your personal life, if someone "shuts up" on you (or ghosts you as the kids say) it's actually normal to feel hurt or confused or have other negative emotions.  And in that scenario, you have two choices:
    (1) Accept & move on
    (2) Fight

    For choice (1) it basically means leaving the Forum or the Game itself.  
    For choice (2) you see people being passionate about what they see as mistakes from their point of view.  Does this lead to some sarcasm and "toxicity" at times? You betcha.  Obviously it's best to be constructive rather than destructive, but y'know, this is an internet forum with everything that comes with it.

    But I applaud the people who choose #2 (Fight) because they appreciate the game and generally want it to improve (again from their point of play or view). 

    This is a very troubling mindset to have. You are not owed communication, especially in your personal life. And its not fighting back against non communication, its attacking them for perceived grievances.

    The problem, aside from that general toxic mentality, is that many people think of the devs as the enemy. They still work for their bottom line, but they probably try to hit the middle of the "make money/ make us happy" venn diagram
  • NeonBlue
    NeonBlue Posts: 142 Tile Toppler
    Straycat said:
    CaptainFreaky said:
    JHawkInc said:
    At no point is a lack of communication an excuse for toxic behavior.
    Hmm - i'm not sure about that.  In your personal life, if someone "shuts up" on you (or ghosts you as the kids say) it's actually normal to feel hurt or confused or have other negative emotions.  And in that scenario, you have two choices:
    (1) Accept & move on
    (2) Fight

    For choice (1) it basically means leaving the Forum or the Game itself.  
    For choice (2) you see people being passionate about what they see as mistakes from their point of view.  Does this lead to some sarcasm and "toxicity" at times? You betcha.  Obviously it's best to be constructive rather than destructive, but y'know, this is an internet forum with everything that comes with it.

    But I applaud the people who choose #2 (Fight) because they appreciate the game and generally want it to improve (again from their point of play or view). 


    The problem, aside from that general toxic mentality, is that many people think of the devs as the enemy. They still work for their bottom line, but they probably try to hit the middle of the "make money/ make us happy" venn diagram
    Over time, I think this venn diagram has shifted in one direction, and it hasn't been towards making us happier. If the devs don't want to be seen as the enemy, then they should act like they care about our feedback sometimes. We're not asking for five-star meals, we're asking to be fed occasionally. How long do you think they should withhold changes from us before we're allowed to antagonize them? Would you allow your significant other to ignore you for six months without feeling slighted?  
  • Straycat
    Straycat Posts: 963 Critical Contributor
    NeonBlue said:
    Straycat said:
    CaptainFreaky said:
    JHawkInc said:
    At no point is a lack of communication an excuse for toxic behavior.
    Hmm - i'm not sure about that.  In your personal life, if someone "shuts up" on you (or ghosts you as the kids say) it's actually normal to feel hurt or confused or have other negative emotions.  And in that scenario, you have two choices:
    (1) Accept & move on
    (2) Fight

    For choice (1) it basically means leaving the Forum or the Game itself.  
    For choice (2) you see people being passionate about what they see as mistakes from their point of view.  Does this lead to some sarcasm and "toxicity" at times? You betcha.  Obviously it's best to be constructive rather than destructive, but y'know, this is an internet forum with everything that comes with it.

    But I applaud the people who choose #2 (Fight) because they appreciate the game and generally want it to improve (again from their point of play or view). 


    The problem, aside from that general toxic mentality, is that many people think of the devs as the enemy. They still work for their bottom line, but they probably try to hit the middle of the "make money/ make us happy" venn diagram
    Over time, I think this venn diagram has shifted in one direction, and it hasn't been towards making us happier. If the devs don't want to be seen as the enemy, then they should act like they care about our feedback sometimes. We're not asking for five-star meals, we're asking to be fed occasionally. How long do you think they should withhold changes from us before we're allowed to antagonize them? Would you allow your significant other to ignore you for six months without feeling slighted?  
    You consider the devs your SO?
    People vent about rng, but at the same time ask if the odds were changed. The devs answer a question about rebalances, and someone wants to unmask them. A while ago there was a survey about our favorite characters, and people answered the opposite thinking it was targeting a nerf. This kind of distrust probably can't be changed, even if they "feed you" occasionally. It would just be on to the next problem. 
  • Dragon_Nexus
    Dragon_Nexus Posts: 3,701 Chairperson of the Boards
    JHawkInc said:
    At no point is a lack of communication an excuse for toxic behavior.
    And at no point is toxic communication an excuse for a lack of communication with your paying customers.
  • NeonBlue
    NeonBlue Posts: 142 Tile Toppler
    edited May 2018
    Straycat said:
    NeonBlue said:
    Straycat said:
    CaptainFreaky said:
    JHawkInc said:
    At no point is a lack of communication an excuse for toxic behavior.
    Hmm - i'm not sure about that.  In your personal life, if someone "shuts up" on you (or ghosts you as the kids say) it's actually normal to feel hurt or confused or have other negative emotions.  And in that scenario, you have two choices:
    (1) Accept & move on
    (2) Fight

    For choice (1) it basically means leaving the Forum or the Game itself.  
    For choice (2) you see people being passionate about what they see as mistakes from their point of view.  Does this lead to some sarcasm and "toxicity" at times? You betcha.  Obviously it's best to be constructive rather than destructive, but y'know, this is an internet forum with everything that comes with it.

    But I applaud the people who choose #2 (Fight) because they appreciate the game and generally want it to improve (again from their point of play or view). 


    The problem, aside from that general toxic mentality, is that many people think of the devs as the enemy. They still work for their bottom line, but they probably try to hit the middle of the "make money/ make us happy" venn diagram
    Over time, I think this venn diagram has shifted in one direction, and it hasn't been towards making us happier. If the devs don't want to be seen as the enemy, then they should act like they care about our feedback sometimes. We're not asking for five-star meals, we're asking to be fed occasionally. How long do you think they should withhold changes from us before we're allowed to antagonize them? Would you allow your significant other to ignore you for six months without feeling slighted?  
    You consider the devs your SO?

    I mean, if you think about it, playing this game is like being in a relationship:

    1. You devote a sizable part of your day to it
    2. This commitment is driven in part by enjoyment and in part by obligation
    3. You're encouraged to spend money to maintain it.
    4. The relationship grows over time, and much like an actual relationship, it has stages or milestones.
  • Straycat
    Straycat Posts: 963 Critical Contributor
    Dragon_Nexus said:
    JHawkInc said:
    At no point is a lack of communication an excuse for toxic behavior.
    And at no point is toxic communication an excuse for a lack of communication with your paying customers.
    Waiters must love you. Spending money doesn't give anyone a pass for their behavior. They communicate what they need to, updates and changes and such. Everything beyond that is at their discretion.
    VIP rewards don't list communication as a perk
  • NeonBlue
    NeonBlue Posts: 142 Tile Toppler
    edited May 2018
    Straycat said:
    NeonBlue said:
    Straycat said:
    CaptainFreaky said:
    JHawkInc said:
    At no point is a lack of communication an excuse for toxic behavior.
    Hmm - i'm not sure about that.  In your personal life, if someone "shuts up" on you (or ghosts you as the kids say) it's actually normal to feel hurt or confused or have other negative emotions.  And in that scenario, you have two choices:
    (1) Accept & move on
    (2) Fight

    For choice (1) it basically means leaving the Forum or the Game itself.  
    For choice (2) you see people being passionate about what they see as mistakes from their point of view.  Does this lead to some sarcasm and "toxicity" at times? You betcha.  Obviously it's best to be constructive rather than destructive, but y'know, this is an internet forum with everything that comes with it.

    But I applaud the people who choose #2 (Fight) because they appreciate the game and generally want it to improve (again from their point of play or view). 


    The problem, aside from that general toxic mentality, is that many people think of the devs as the enemy. They still work for their bottom line, but they probably try to hit the middle of the "make money/ make us happy" venn diagram
    Over time, I think this venn diagram has shifted in one direction, and it hasn't been towards making us happier. If the devs don't want to be seen as the enemy, then they should act like they care about our feedback sometimes. We're not asking for five-star meals, we're asking to be fed occasionally. How long do you think they should withhold changes from us before we're allowed to antagonize them? Would you allow your significant other to ignore you for six months without feeling slighted?  
    People vent about rng, but at the same time ask if the odds were changed. The devs answer a question about rebalances, and someone wants to unmask them. A while ago there was a survey about our favorite characters, and people answered the opposite thinking it was targeting a nerf. This kind of distrust probably can't be changed, even if they "feed you" occasionally. It would just be on to the next problem. 
    So, some people mistrust them, and now they have a free pass to not listen to us? We're asking them to do things because that is our prerogative as players, and their job is to respond. This relationship is the same across all live service games. They have chosen not to address our concerns for a significant amount of time, so just as they have chosen to ignore us, we have chosen to call them out. Expecting them to throw us a bone at least once every few months doesn't seem like an unreasonable or herculean task.

    And yes, it would be onto the next problem. Imagine if you had an apartment, and the devs were the landlords. If there were a bunch of problems, like no water, no electricity, problems with heating, and your landlord refused to fix them because it would be too much of a hassle for them, would you accept that? As long as MPQ has problems, players will always ask for a fix. It's the devs responsibility to address them, regardless of how nice we are to them. 
  • NeonBlue
    NeonBlue Posts: 142 Tile Toppler
    Straycat said:
    Dragon_Nexus said:
    JHawkInc said:
    At no point is a lack of communication an excuse for toxic behavior.
    And at no point is toxic communication an excuse for a lack of communication with your paying customers.
    Waiters must love you. Spending money doesn't give anyone a pass for their behavior. They communicate what they need to, updates and changes and such. Everything beyond that is at their discretion.
    VIP rewards don't list communication as a perk
    Well, if the waiter brings us the wrong order, and then ignores us for the rest of the meal, they're incompetent, and I would approach their managers. We expect wait staff to have a certain level of professionalism, just as they expect us to have a certain level of courtesy.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Can you list down what the problems or concerns you expect them to address and for how long have those problems not being addressed? For example you could write something like this:

    1. Problem 1. Happening for 3 months
    2. Problem 2. Happening for 6 months

    Etc.

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