Sphinx's Decree Shouldn't Exist

wereotter

If we want to discuss meta warping.... Shinx’s Decree is hardly it. If anything the biggest warping effect on the meta right now is the fact that Bolas exists and that he’s OP as balls.

75%+ of my matches in Across Ixalan (that aren’t white or green days) are against him, whereas I rarely run into this support in the wild. It’s to the point I rarely play on red, blue, and black days because I’m so sick of seeing him. 

morgue427

have bolas and play against him plenty in tg yes he kills as an ability, hmm keep a creature in reserve to replace or a cheap throwaway to sacrifice, win most of them one of the few bolas builds that as cycling based not hard just a royal pain to beat because the ai doesnt cycle

ZW2007-

You can't compare Sphinx Decree with Hixus. I can kill my own creatures or replace them to get around a Hixus lock. Sure, it takes forever but I can do it. I can't replace your spells with other spells to get around Decree. If you don't think Decree is probably too good, you haven't played against a deck utilizing it to its full potential. I do think 13 mana for a 1 shield support makes it somewhat balanced but in some instances it can be more oppressive than nearly any other card in the game.

wereotter

morgue427 said:

have bolas and play against him plenty in tg yes he kills as an ability, hmm keep a creature in reserve to replace or a cheap throwaway to sacrifice, win most of them one of the few bolas builds that as cycling based not hard just a royal pain to beat because the ai doesnt cycle

After this long, I know how to play against Bolas. Doesn’t mean I don’t still find his abilities, mana gaims, and access to so many spells to be overly powerful. Especially when most builds I face off against aren’t cycling decks and tend to still run 2-3 kill spells in addition to his first ability being a kill spell. 

Knowing how to play around it doesn’t mean it’s not meta warping. When you see him this often, it’s absolutely having an impact. 

Kinesia

Sphinxes Decree is ABSOLUTELY equivalent to Hixus.

But now we have:

Creature hate
Support hate
Spell hate
PW ability hate

Fitting all of those in a single deck is actually awkward and slows it down and makes it awkward, they almost all have a weakness and that's the point of the circling meta, that it never ever settles down on a single dominant strategy.

I _love_ supports, Vraska warps things for me.
I love creatures, Bolas warps things for me.

I care slightly less about spells and loyalty but shrug. That's irrelevant, my creature and support decks had to adjust, now your spell decks have to adjust.

Next thing we NEED is a support that punishes green gem matches. Then our little "rock/paper/scissor" game is finally complex enough and complete. And, yes, the spell hate fixes _some_ of those decks, but not all.

So this current situation, this is great, it might help some of the old problems.

(Though I agree with wereotter that Bolas first ability is a much wider problem than any other single card.)

ElfNeedsFood

Kinesia said:

Next thing we NEED is a support that punishes green gem matches. Then our little "rock/paper/scissor" game is finally complex enough and complete. And, yes, the spell hate fixes _some_ of those decks, but not all.

Choke does well enough to take out any opposing deck. Combine it with Storm the Vault and you really gem hose the other guy. 

Kinesia

ElfNeedsFood said:

Kinesia said:

Next thing we NEED is a support that punishes green gem matches. Then our little "rock/paper/scissor" game is finally complex enough and complete. And, yes, the spell hate fixes _some_ of those decks, but not all.

Choke does well enough to take out any opposing deck. Combine it with Storm the Vault and you really gem hose the other guy. 

Yep, but you can't have that out waiting first turn for them to play Rishkar's Expertise. (And it's not common!)

It's something I've mentioned before, but FindingWombat's thread on cards to bring in reminded me of Psychic Venom which would be a great addition to the meta game.
6 cost blue support with 5 shields : When the opponent matches 4 or more gems they take 5 damage.

Then you can have it out waiting. It doesn't _stop_ them, just punishes them.


I do agree the Sphinx's Decree is annoying becuase it breaks the plan you are coming in with, but for me I already have that because I'm always support heavy and I've had to deal with Koth ruining the board and now Vraska forever, spells lovers just need to adjust and plan ahead in a way they've never had to before, it just takes adjustment.
I disagree that it's broken though, because you _should_ be planning for your plan to fail, you should be planning to win with plans C or D not A or B. We creature and support players have had to do this forever.

TheExaminer

My green decks usually never run any support destruction except for manglehorn. So what now, we should ban desert hold and claustrophobia and cast out?

Thuran

I guess kataki and blood moon should also be banned in modern?

If you have a deck that cannot beat 1 specific card, why the hell are you playing a pure spells combo deck? Sorry, but if your grievance is that it stops HUF, then I don't have much sympathy xD

Your decks should either have a plan B, or a way to ensure your plan A does not get disrupted. Remember how your entire deck stops working every 3 turns on Azor?I don't, because if I cannot cast spells, then I just cast my supports or creatures.

Yes, my imminent doom loses on the spot if I cannot get rid of it, but that's still a combo deck, and a risk you accept if you play certain decks or colours. 

I frankly haven't seen a single person change their deck lineup in order to deal with SD, because most decks can ignore it or work around it, which in turn makes it a very rare card, as it is a high risk of being a do-nothing that gets instantly blown up.

Good in certain prison decks? OK, but a single specific deck that does not see much play is not cause for concern. You don't see Nykthos banned in modern, even if it breaks the rules of the format by allowing turn 2 kills  

So no, a card that is only situationally useful, in certain decks, and fails to affect the vast majority of decks in any major way, and is not common enough to push out another key archetype, does not warp the metagame at all. 

hawkyh1

wereotter said:

morgue427 said:

have bolas and play against him plenty in tg yes he kills as an ability, hmm keep a creature in reserve to replace or a cheap throwaway to sacrifice, win most of them one of the few bolas builds that as cycling based not hard just a royal pain to beat because the ai doesnt cycle

After this long, I know how to play against Bolas. Doesn’t mean I don’t still find his abilities, mana gaims, and access to so many spells to be overly powerful. Especially when most builds I face off against aren’t cycling decks and tend to still run 2-3 kill spells in addition to his first ability being a kill spell. 

Knowing how to play around it doesn’t mean it’s not meta warping. When you see him this often, it’s absolutely having an impact. 

a little off topic but I would like to say that I use bolas
for across ixalan because he covers 3 colours and I
don't have spare deck slots. there's not that many
options for kill your own creature and defeat the
opponent in 10 turns. it's the easy option for those
days that you don't want to deck build.

HH

FindingHeart8

Perhaps Spinx's Decree should be a 2-shield support with "Whenever your opponent casts a spell, counter it and this support loses 1 shield."  It would be more in flavor with both the theme of the original card (since SD only shuts your opponent down in the mtg card game for a turn) and in flavor with mtgpq's Ixalan (as that set was full of supports that self-destructed).

Froggy

I love the card. I abuse it with Nyx, Gideon’s Defeat and ahost of others.

When facing it, I deal with it two ways - massive gem converters - or luck. I can’t complain as I use it. Just reminds me of how good this card really is and that it is so much better than an uncommon.

babar3355

I am frankly shocked that more people don't see how disruptive this card can be.  

This is the only card in the entire game that shuts down an ENTIRE CLASS OF CARD!

It is not just like Hixus.  Hixus doesn't prevent you from casting creatures. And even if it did it could still be destroyed by every support control spell in the game.

There is nothing that permanently prevents you from casting supports or casting creatures.  And even those would be more balanced, because they wouldn't block 95% of the cards that could destroy them. Yet, I guarantee if a card prevented the opponent from casting creatures these forums would errupt in complaints.

Froggy said:

I love the card. I abuse it with Nyx, Gideon’s Defeat and ahost of others.

When facing it, I deal with it two ways - massive gem converters - or luck. I can’t complain as I use it. Just reminds me of how good this card really is and that it is so much better than an uncommon.

Yes, I agree it is insanely abusable. It is perhaps stronger than Hixus at uncommon. Also, it shuts down massive gem converters except Storm the Vault, Shefet, Beetle and a few others, which was the 2nd best method of dealing with supports.

Anyway, I know I won't convince you guys.  So I will just let this go.  Instead, I will be splashing it in every white deck from now in a grass roots efforts to show the strength of this card.

Mburn7

babar3355 said:

I am frankly shocked that more people don't see how disruptive this card can be.  

This is the only card in the entire game that shuts down an ENTIRE CLASS OF CARD!

That's not necessarily true, Jace's Defeat shuts down spells to (admittedly 1 at a time), there are a ton of supports that shut down creatures (Cast Out easily stops all creatures from doing anything), and a ton of stuff that destroys supports (although not stopping you from playing them).

And saying that a support is powerful with Starfield is not grounds for anything, just look at Insidious Will.

I agree that the card is powerful, and probably should be a rare, but lets not get crazy.  It has 1 shield, after all, so barring incredibly bad luck you should be ok with some gem converters (which most decks run anyway)

FindingHeart8

babar3355 said:

I am frankly shocked that more people don't see how disruptive this card can be.  

This is the only card in the entire game that shuts down an ENTIRE CLASS OF CARD!

It is not just like Hixus.  Hixus doesn't prevent you from casting creatures. And even if it did it could still be destroyed by every support control spell in the game.

There is nothing that permanently prevents you from casting supports or casting creatures.  And even those would be more balanced, because they wouldn't block 95% of the cards that could destroy them. Yet, I guarantee if a card prevented the opponent from casting creatures these forums would errupt in complaints.

sounds like someone runs a lot of spell decks

I dunno, the mtgpq card-gods have decided my fate for the Ixalan set is to run creature-beatdown (it's pretty much all the packs have given me, weirdly-consistent theme of card draws), so this card is almost entirely a nonissue for me.

Oh noooo, I can't cast my green gem-conversion spells...guess I'll have to hard cast my second Gaea's Revenge and then the two 12/12 Ghaltas in my hand are free anyways.  Oh gee golly darn.

DumasAG

Kinesia said:

Hixus was the same for creatures and black and blue played around it forever.
So blue can't use RR to escape? Good. That card is worse for the game than sphinx anyway, but if sphinx is what you are scared of then you _plan_ for it with white/blue gem changers and things, same way you'd deal with Hixus in the old days. And sometimes you'll be unlucky but that's great it's random and it's a game.
You aren't _meant_ to have one deck that can deal with every single thing. (Which is my problem with RR, Blue now doesn't need another colour or have any drawbacks)

 

Not being able to play HUF or Deploy is a drawback, I suppose

babar3355

Mburn7 said:

babar3355 said:

I am frankly shocked that more people don't see how disruptive this card can be.  

This is the only card in the entire game that shuts down an ENTIRE CLASS OF CARD!

That's not necessarily true, Jace's Defeat shuts down spells to (admittedly 1 at a time), there are a ton of supports that shut down creatures (Cast Out easily stops all creatures from doing anything), and a ton of stuff that destroys supports (although not stopping you from playing them).

And saying that a support is powerful with Starfield is not grounds for anything, just look at Insidious Will.

I agree that the card is powerful, and probably should be a rare, but lets not get crazy.  It has 1 shield, after all, so barring incredibly bad luck you should be ok with some gem converters (which most decks run anyway)

...... I didn't think I had to clarify that "shuts down" means "prevents from playing" in my comment.  And, yes... if it shut down 2-3 spells like jace's defeat it would be strong but not broken.  This would make it like @FindingHeart8
solution which I think makes sense.

And then the rants about "just don't play spells and you dont have to worry about it start."  Sigh... it's hard to even have a conversation with you guys sometimes.

Mburn7

babar3355 said:

Mburn7 said:

babar3355 said:

I am frankly shocked that more people don't see how disruptive this card can be.  

This is the only card in the entire game that shuts down an ENTIRE CLASS OF CARD!

That's not necessarily true, Jace's Defeat shuts down spells to (admittedly 1 at a time), there are a ton of supports that shut down creatures (Cast Out easily stops all creatures from doing anything), and a ton of stuff that destroys supports (although not stopping you from playing them).

And saying that a support is powerful with Starfield is not grounds for anything, just look at Insidious Will.

I agree that the card is powerful, and probably should be a rare, but lets not get crazy.  It has 1 shield, after all, so barring incredibly bad luck you should be ok with some gem converters (which most decks run anyway)

...... I didn't think I had to clarify that "shuts down" means "prevents from playing" in my comment.  And, yes... if it shut down 2-3 spells like jace's defeat it would be strong but not broken.  This would make it like @FindingHeart8
solution which I think makes sense.

And then the rants about "just don't play spells and you dont have to worry about it start."  Sigh... it's hard to even have a conversation with you guys sometimes.

Whats the difference between not being able to play it and not being able to use it?  To me they're the same.

And I agree the "don't play spells" argument is stupid, but as someone who usually doesn't run a ton of spells I am finding it hard to see the issue.  Sure, its harder to use HUF, but that card needed an answer anyway.

There are a ton of things that disable and kill creatures, and even cards that can negate their ETB effects.
There are a ton of things that destroy supports, in addition to just matching the gems around them (which is admittedly luck based, but this is a match 3 game so whatever).
There are 2 cards that stop spells.  Now there are 3.  3 cards, in the entire game.  All of them supports, all of them with 2 or less shields.

I'm finding it hard to see the issue.

FindingHeart8

Mburn7 said:

babar3355 said:

Mburn7 said:

babar3355 said:

I am frankly shocked that more people don't see how disruptive this card can be.  

This is the only card in the entire game that shuts down an ENTIRE CLASS OF CARD!

That's not necessarily true, Jace's Defeat shuts down spells to (admittedly 1 at a time), there are a ton of supports that shut down creatures (Cast Out easily stops all creatures from doing anything), and a ton of stuff that destroys supports (although not stopping you from playing them).

And saying that a support is powerful with Starfield is not grounds for anything, just look at Insidious Will.

I agree that the card is powerful, and probably should be a rare, but lets not get crazy.  It has 1 shield, after all, so barring incredibly bad luck you should be ok with some gem converters (which most decks run anyway)

...... I didn't think I had to clarify that "shuts down" means "prevents from playing" in my comment.  And, yes... if it shut down 2-3 spells like jace's defeat it would be strong but not broken.  This would make it like @FindingHeart8
solution which I think makes sense.

And then the rants about "just don't play spells and you dont have to worry about it start."  Sigh... it's hard to even have a conversation with you guys sometimes.

Whats the difference between not being able to play it and not being able to use it?  To me they're the same.

And I agree the "don't play spells" argument is stupid, but as someone who usually doesn't run a ton of spells I am finding it hard to see the issue.  Sure, its harder to use HUF, but that card needed an answer anyway.

There are a ton of things that disable and kill creatures, and even cards that can negate their ETB effects.
There are a ton of things that destroy supports, in addition to just matching the gems around them (which is admittedly luck based, but this is a match 3 game so whatever).
There are 2 cards that stop spells.  Now there are 3.  3 cards, in the entire game.  All of them supports, all of them with 2 or less shields.

I'm finding it hard to see the issue.

that's a good point, though there would be 4 total if you include the masterpiece that counters the next anything (pact of negation), but I wouldn't really count that one as dependable.

we do need more cards that interact with spells, I wouldn't be opposed to a support that has a 50% chance of redirecting negative spells to their caster...but that's me promoting the idea of a chaotic-style playstyle I've been pushing for for a while

Mburn7

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

babar3355 said:

Mburn7 said:

babar3355 said:

I am frankly shocked that more people don't see how disruptive this card can be.  

This is the only card in the entire game that shuts down an ENTIRE CLASS OF CARD!

That's not necessarily true, Jace's Defeat shuts down spells to (admittedly 1 at a time), there are a ton of supports that shut down creatures (Cast Out easily stops all creatures from doing anything), and a ton of stuff that destroys supports (although not stopping you from playing them).

And saying that a support is powerful with Starfield is not grounds for anything, just look at Insidious Will.

I agree that the card is powerful, and probably should be a rare, but lets not get crazy.  It has 1 shield, after all, so barring incredibly bad luck you should be ok with some gem converters (which most decks run anyway)

...... I didn't think I had to clarify that "shuts down" means "prevents from playing" in my comment.  And, yes... if it shut down 2-3 spells like jace's defeat it would be strong but not broken.  This would make it like @FindingHeart8
solution which I think makes sense.

And then the rants about "just don't play spells and you dont have to worry about it start."  Sigh... it's hard to even have a conversation with you guys sometimes.

Whats the difference between not being able to play it and not being able to use it?  To me they're the same.

And I agree the "don't play spells" argument is stupid, but as someone who usually doesn't run a ton of spells I am finding it hard to see the issue.  Sure, its harder to use HUF, but that card needed an answer anyway.

There are a ton of things that disable and kill creatures, and even cards that can negate their ETB effects.
There are a ton of things that destroy supports, in addition to just matching the gems around them (which is admittedly luck based, but this is a match 3 game so whatever).
There are 2 cards that stop spells.  Now there are 3.  3 cards, in the entire game.  All of them supports, all of them with 2 or less shields.

I'm finding it hard to see the issue.

that's a good point, though there would be 4 total if you include the masterpiece that counters the next anything (pact of negation), but I wouldn't really count that one as dependable.

we do need more cards that interact with spells, I wouldn't be opposed to a support that has a 50% chance of redirecting negative spells to their caster...but that's me promoting the idea of a chaotic-style playstyle I've been pushing for for a while

Sure, lets bring Storm into MTGPQ too while we're at it, or cascade lol.
Maybe some dice rollers or coin flippers?

Let Chaos Reign.