Sphinx's Decree Shouldn't Exist

System

This discussion was created from comments split from: Official request to NEVER make more cards that prevent use of planeswalker abilities.

babar3355

The card that should not exist is Sphinx's Decree.  Seriously, there are virtually no options for dealing with supports other than spells.  It is literally impossible to get out of a support lock that is using Sphinx's Decree unless you get lucky with gems or just happen to be running manglehorn or felidar cub.   Ridiculous card.

Gilesclone

What’s worse about Decree is that it’s such a luckfest card.  Whenever I play it , it gets killed before it does anything but get lucky and it’s a lock.

DumasAG

babar3355 said:

The card that should not exist is Sphinx's Decree.  Seriously, there are virtually no options for dealing with supports other than spells.  It is literally impossible to get out of a support lock that is using Sphinx's Decree unless you get lucky with gems or just happen to be running manglehorn or felidar cub.   Ridiculous card.

Interesting that there are "virtually no options" and it's "literally impossible" when you mentioned two creatures which can help, added to Thrashing Brontodon or Abbot/Rambler in red. There's always Zacama as well, of course, for those with mythics. 

Gilesclone

Since it’s white, Nahiri’s 2nd would be a possibility 

DumasAG

Gilesclone said:

Since it’s white, Nahiri’s 2nd would be a possibility 

Or Vraska's first

babar3355

DumasAG said:

babar3355 said:

The card that should not exist is Sphinx's Decree.  Seriously, there are virtually no options for dealing with supports other than spells.  It is literally impossible to get out of a support lock that is using Sphinx's Decree unless you get lucky with gems or just happen to be running manglehorn or felidar cub.   Ridiculous card.

Interesting that there are "virtually no options" and it's "literally impossible" when you mentioned two creatures which can help, added to Thrashing Brontodon or Abbot/Rambler in red. There's always Zacama as well, of course, for those with mythics. 

So you are saying it is well balanced and that I every player should just run green,white or Vraska in every event from now on, just in case they run into a white node running Sphinx's decree?  Oh, or I can run gem crashing supports and creatures in every deck and pray I get lucky? Please tell me you are just being pithy and don't believe that this card is reasonable..

This was the exact problem with Runaway Carriage back when it first came out.  Every single deck had to be geared to specifically counter 1 card.  This is 100% meta warping and awful for the game.

DumasAG

babar3355 said:

DumasAG said:

babar3355 said:

The card that should not exist is Sphinx's Decree.  Seriously, there are virtually no options for dealing with supports other than spells.  It is literally impossible to get out of a support lock that is using Sphinx's Decree unless you get lucky with gems or just happen to be running manglehorn or felidar cub.   Ridiculous card.

Interesting that there are "virtually no options" and it's "literally impossible" when you mentioned two creatures which can help, added to Thrashing Brontodon or Abbot/Rambler in red. There's always Zacama as well, of course, for those with mythics. 

So you are saying it is well balanced and that I every player should just run green,white or Vraska in every event from now on, just in case they run into a white node running Sphinx's decree?  Oh, or I can run gem crashing supports and creatures in every deck and pray I get lucky? Please tell me you are just being pithy and don't believe that this card is reasonable..

This was the exact problem with Runaway Carriage back when it first came out.  Every single deck had to be geared to specifically counter 1 card.  This is 100% meta warping and awful for the game.

I'm saying that Sphinx's decree is an interesting and useful card that's not the end of the world, and that saying it's impossible to deal with is hyperbole.

wereotter

babar3355 said:

The card that should not exist is Sphinx's Decree.  Seriously, there are virtually no options for dealing with supports other than spells.  It is literally impossible to get out of a support lock that is using Sphinx's Decree unless you get lucky with gems or just happen to be running manglehorn or felidar cub.   Ridiculous card.

I feel like people have forgotten that Conclave Naturalists exist. That's another option that you should be able to get easy, and will be around even if Sphinx's Decree stays in standard after Manglehorn rotates.

I admit that it's obnoxious, though.

babar3355

DumasAG said:

babar3355 said:

DumasAG said:

babar3355 said:

The card that should not exist is Sphinx's Decree.  Seriously, there are virtually no options for dealing with supports other than spells.  It is literally impossible to get out of a support lock that is using Sphinx's Decree unless you get lucky with gems or just happen to be running manglehorn or felidar cub.   Ridiculous card.

Interesting that there are "virtually no options" and it's "literally impossible" when you mentioned two creatures which can help, added to Thrashing Brontodon or Abbot/Rambler in red. There's always Zacama as well, of course, for those with mythics. 

So you are saying it is well balanced and that I every player should just run green,white or Vraska in every event from now on, just in case they run into a white node running Sphinx's decree?  Oh, or I can run gem crashing supports and creatures in every deck and pray I get lucky? Please tell me you are just being pithy and don't believe that this card is reasonable..

This was the exact problem with Runaway Carriage back when it first came out.  Every single deck had to be geared to specifically counter 1 card.  This is 100% meta warping and awful for the game.

I'm saying that Sphinx's decree is an interesting and useful card that's not the end of the world, and that saying it's impossible to deal with is hyperbole.

Of course it is interesting and useful.  It also is totally metawarping and bad for the game.

I specifically said it is impossible unless you just happen to be running a few select cards, excluding the 95% of cards that are INTENDED to deal with supports.   Think about it.... now every other support control spell is virtually unusable against white? How is that not warping the game?

This is even worse than when the Amonkhet gods couldn't be targeted by destroy spells and there were virtually no exile cards in existence.

We will see if you are still constructive on such an unbalanced card once you get totally shutdown by it in an event that actually matters. 

Gunmix25

babar3355 said:

The card that should not exist is Sphinx's Decree.  Seriously, there are virtually no options for dealing with supports other than spells.  It is literally impossible to get out of a support lock that is using Sphinx's Decree unless you get lucky with gems or just happen to be running manglehorn or felidar cub.   Ridiculous card.

It is a one shield support, even with Nyx this support is touch and go and I have had this support actually interfere with nyx bringing out prior destroyed supports because S.D. keeps getting busted on my opponent's turn. Essentially locking up Nyx in a weird way. I've since eliminated the Nyx slash Sphinx Decree combo because it is a waste of mana. This card is perfectly fine in cost. Not sure why this is an issue when Blue and Black have literally no support removal period ... why not a call for balance there? In short, we adapt to each card as they come into play. Sphinx's decree is no different.

Gunmix25

babar3355 said:

DumasAG said:

babar3355 said:

DumasAG said:

babar3355 said:

The card that should not exist is Sphinx's Decree.  Seriously, there are virtually no options for dealing with supports other than spells.  It is literally impossible to get out of a support lock that is using Sphinx's Decree unless you get lucky with gems or just happen to be running manglehorn or felidar cub.   Ridiculous card.

Interesting that there are "virtually no options" and it's "literally impossible" when you mentioned two creatures which can help, added to Thrashing Brontodon or Abbot/Rambler in red. There's always Zacama as well, of course, for those with mythics. 

So you are saying it is well balanced and that I every player should just run green,white or Vraska in every event from now on, just in case they run into a white node running Sphinx's decree?  Oh, or I can run gem crashing supports and creatures in every deck and pray I get lucky? Please tell me you are just being pithy and don't believe that this card is reasonable..

This was the exact problem with Runaway Carriage back when it first came out.  Every single deck had to be geared to specifically counter 1 card.  This is 100% meta warping and awful for the game.

I'm saying that Sphinx's decree is an interesting and useful card that's not the end of the world, and that saying it's impossible to deal with is hyperbole.

Of course it is interesting and useful.  It also is totally metawarping and bad for the game.

I specifically said it is impossible unless you just happen to be running a few select cards, excluding the 95% of cards that are INTENDED to deal with supports.   Think about it.... now every other support control spell is virtually unusable against white? How is that not warping the game?

This is even worse than when the Amonkhet gods couldn't be targeted by destroy spells and there were virtually no exile cards in existence.

We will see if you are still constructive on such an unbalanced card once you get totally shutdown by it in an event that actually matters. 

ok...
if I play all creatures and get my tinykitty handed to me by removal... it that metawarping? no.

If I play heavy support and get my tinykitty handed to me by support removal...  it that metawarping? no.

If I play blue and get beat because I can't eliminate cast out...  it that metawarping? no.

If I play black and get beat because I can't eliminate a hixus support...  it that metawarping? no.

If I play spell heavy and get beat because faced Sphinx Decree.... it that metawarping? no.

This list goes on and on. Unless it vastly warps the game on every level like Baral did, it's not metawarping. Omniscience is far worse than Sphinx Decree and IMHO so is Nyx and any disable combo.

babar3355

Gunmix25 said:

ok...
if I play all creatures and get my tinykitty handed to me by removal... it that metawarping? no.

If I play heavy support and get my tinykitty handed to me by support removal...  it that metawarping? no.

If I play blue and get beat because I can't eliminate cast out...  it that metawarping? no.

If I play black and get beat because I can't eliminate a hixus support...  it that metawarping? no.

If I play spell heavy and get beat because faced Sphinx Decree.... it that metawarping? no.

This list goes on and on. Unless it vastly warps the game on every level like Baral did, it's not metawarping. Omniscience is far worse than Sphinx Decree and IMHO so is Nyx and any disable combo.

You spent a lot of time coming up with some totally irrelevant examples.

The first 2 are strategies, rather than individual cards.  I agree you shouldn't run all creatures.  And most good support oriented decks run mana denial or counterspell type effects that help manage support denial.  But the bigger picture is, these are ALREADY the meta!  It has always been that way.  How can it be warping itself?

Blue has one of the best support controllers in the game in River's Rebuke.  However, the broader picture is again that the meta is partially defined by poor answers to support in black/blue.  Which is why very few top players run mono-blue or mono-black unless they are using an alternative win condition. This has been the meta for years.

However, if you are running a cast x or more spells deck in an event and run into a sphinx's decree you are probably out of luck.  Unless you just happened to be running one of the inferior non-spell support removals.  But just because they are running white, you run the risk of losing if you don't swap our river's rebuke, hour of revelation, or the great aurora for some janky creature that may not even be in your colors.  So actually, you have to run colors that HAVE access to these janky creatures just in case you run into white at some point during the event. This is one single card changing the dynamic of an entire meta-game.  

Stop giving me silly solutions and contest that the meta is actually being warped.  IF you can't, then you are fine with the meta being warped.  That's fine... I think you are wrong... but we are all entitled to an opinion.

DumasAG

babar3355 said:

Gunmix25 said:

ok...
if I play all creatures and get my tinykitty handed to me by removal... it that metawarping? no.

If I play heavy support and get my tinykitty handed to me by support removal...  it that metawarping? no.

If I play blue and get beat because I can't eliminate cast out...  it that metawarping? no.

If I play black and get beat because I can't eliminate a hixus support...  it that metawarping? no.

If I play spell heavy and get beat because faced Sphinx Decree.... it that metawarping? no.

This list goes on and on. Unless it vastly warps the game on every level like Baral did, it's not metawarping. Omniscience is far worse than Sphinx Decree and IMHO so is Nyx and any disable combo.

You spent a lot of time coming up with some totally irrelevant examples.

The first 2 are strategies, rather than individual cards.  I agree you shouldn't run all creatures.  And most good support oriented decks run mana denial or counterspell type effects that help manage support denial.  But the bigger picture is, these are ALREADY the meta!  It has always been that way.  How can it be warping itself?

Blue has one of the best support controllers in the game in River's Rebuke.  However, the broader picture is again that the meta is partially defined by poor answers to support in black/blue.  Which is why very few top players run mono-blue or mono-black unless they are using an alternative win condition. This has been the meta for years.

However, if you are running a cast x or more spells deck in an event and run into a sphinx's decree you are probably out of luck.  Unless you just happened to be running one of the inferior non-spell support removals.  But just because they are running white, you run the risk of losing if you don't swap our river's rebuke, hour of revelation, or the great aurora for some janky creature that may not even be in your colors.  So actually, you have to run colors that HAVE access to these janky creatures just in case you run into white at some point during the event. This is one single card changing the dynamic of an entire meta-game.  

Stop giving me silly solutions and contest that the meta is actually being warped.  IF you can't, then you are fine with the meta being warped.  That's fine... I think you are wrong... but we are all entitled to an opinion.

I think I just have to disagree with your assumption the meta is being warped. From my perspective, I RARELY run into SI, and when I do it sticks around for a turn or two until I kill it. It's about as annoying as Hixus. In fact, it's pretty much AS annoying as Hixus. I would argue that I see significantly more HUF or Impending Doom or OmniWhir decks than I see decks running SI, so maybe more people SHOULD be running it. Regardless, I habitually run multiple ways to destroy supports including non-spell options, because deck diversity matters. I'm really sorry you got shut out of a couple extra points in a tournament because you couldn't cast X spells because SI got stuck in a corner. That sounds like bad luck to me, not a warped meta, not poor design, and certainly not a problem which needs to be addressed. 

babar3355

Yeah, maybe I am overestimating the impact.  I agree that I don't see it that often, certainly not like when Runaway Carriage was a thing.

And I agree, it is not an instant "I win" button like Carriage was.  You can always just ignore it and drop creatures/supports to win the game assuming it isn't backed up with other options.

But still, the fact that players have to play around a single uncommon card to this degree is pretty impactful to the game-state. It is exactly the type of card that would cause every paper MTG player to have 4+ sideboard cards ready to counter.  

DumasAG

babar3355 said:

Yeah, maybe I am overestimating the impact.  I agree that I don't see it that often, certainly not like when Runaway Carriage was a thing.

And I agree, it is not an instant "I win" button like Carriage was.  You can always just ignore it and drop creatures/supports to win the game assuming it isn't backed up with other options.

But still, the fact that players have to play around a single uncommon card to this degree is pretty impactful to the game-state. It is exactly the type of card that would cause every paper MTG player to have 4+ sideboard cards ready to counter.  

You kind of have your answer right there at the bottom, though. When you see you're matched against a white planeswalker, altering your deck so that you have options to fight SI if it becomes more popular may become necessary. I remember for a while when I played against a Kiora I had to jam at least 3 hard-removal spells to counter Baral. This leads to another discussion about the need for a sideboard-like mechanism in tournaments, where a temporary change can be made to the deck based on the opponent, only to be reversed to the original deck after the match. It would make choices much more interesting. But that's a separate topic.

babar3355

DumasAG said:

babar3355 said:

Yeah, maybe I am overestimating the impact.  I agree that I don't see it that often, certainly not like when Runaway Carriage was a thing.

And I agree, it is not an instant "I win" button like Carriage was.  You can always just ignore it and drop creatures/supports to win the game assuming it isn't backed up with other options.

But still, the fact that players have to play around a single uncommon card to this degree is pretty impactful to the game-state. It is exactly the type of card that would cause every paper MTG player to have 4+ sideboard cards ready to counter.  

You kind of have your answer right there at the bottom, though. When you see you're matched against a white planeswalker, altering your deck so that you have options to fight SI if it becomes more popular may become necessary. I remember for a while when I played against a Kiora I had to jam at least 3 hard-removal spells to counter Baral. This leads to another discussion about the need for a sideboard-like mechanism in tournaments, where a temporary change can be made to the deck based on the opponent, only to be reversed to the original deck after the match. It would make choices much more interesting. But that's a separate topic.

Well Baral 1.0 was definitely meta-warping and very bad for the game.  In fact he had the same general problem as SD (SI is Swarm Intelligence, not the card we are discussing right?). You couldn't just load your deck with classic creature removal, but instead had to rely on a very limited pool of ETB disablers, or you could end up losing before you had a chance to respond.  Many colors didn't have these options available.  SD is far less powerful than Baral but has the same general issue where it counters an entire class of cards (ie spells) that are specifically designed to deal with the class of card it represents (ie supports).

It is probably too complicated but SD would be more balanced if it was something like "Opponent cannot cast spells other than support destruction spells.  When support destruction spells are cast, the spell is countered and Sphinx's Decree is destroyed" 

In this manner your river's rebuke would only pop SD.  You also couldn't rely on green gem converters to deal with it.  Yet it would still be a strong card, especially if you used it in a Nyx style control deck.

Just my thoughts... probably should splice this whole conversation into a different thread about SD rather than Immortal Sun and Sorceress Spyglass @bken1234

Gunmix25

babar3355 said:

You spent a lot of time coming up with some totally irrelevant examples.

no, I would say about 90 seconds. Not sure why this is relevant to the discussion. So there's no need to expand upon this.

babar3355 said:

The first 2 are strategies, rather than individual cards.  I agree you shouldn't run all creatures.  And most good support oriented decks run mana denial or counterspell type effects that help manage support denial.  But the bigger picture is, these are ALREADY the meta!  It has always been that way.  How can it be warping itself?

But that is the issue you make about Sphinx's Decree is that it effects these builds... if you build for them. You didn't say it outright but you did insinuate.

babar3355 said:

Blue has one of the best support controllers in the game in River's Rebuke.  However, the broader picture is again that the meta is partially defined by poor answers to support in black/blue.  Which is why very few top players run mono-blue or mono-black unless they are using an alternative win condition. This has been the meta for years.

Yes, because we learned to adapt. So in that we agree. A side note: river's rebuke is a powerful card but also very expensive. Not what I call a reliable controller. If I recall correctly didn't you post a series about how OP that card was or was that Grizz? I've been hit by it once and have not seen it again since that one experience. This leads me to believe that the Meta doesn't see this card as that useful despite what it does.

babar3355 said:

However, if you are running a cast x or more spells deck in an event and run into a sphinx's decree you are probably out of luck.  Unless you just happened to be running one of the inferior non-spell support removals.  But just because they are running white, you run the risk of losing if you don't swap our river's rebuke, hour of revelation, or the great aurora for some janky creature that may not even be in your colors.  So actually, you have to run colors that HAVE access to these janky creatures just in case you run into white at some point during the event. This is one single card changing the dynamic of an entire meta-game.  

This example proves nothing, it isn't the card that you have an issue with but the objectives which is clearly stated by your reasoning above. Like this one for example, Kill X creatures, this is also problematic situational issue. One that is not the fault of the card's design but the design of the objective in which that card can manipulate and prevent you from achieving full points across the board. If objective conflicts are the issue you might as well bring Imminent Doom into the conversation as it provides a way to a creatureless win. But I digress, switching out sideboards is a common practice and you speak of it like it's a nuisance. While you may see it that way, I see it as being tactical about what and whom(PW) you're facing. I guess we will have to agree to disagree in this regards.

babar3355 said:

Stop giving me silly solutions

  One could say them for you as well as you've given no precedent beyond what could happen if you get caught with your pants down. This is MTGPQ at some point no matter how hard we try to build strategically ... you're gonna eventually get caught with your pants down. I could make similar examples with various cards in various situations and especially when in regards to objectives. But I'm not going to jump on that carousel.

Kinesia

From my perspective supports have just hit the point of "need to deal with" in the way that creatures have been for ages. Creatures are now "overremoved". Metas swing back and forth and around and right now is the "Month of the Support" but it'll change again. This is actually healthier that so many different things can be said to be causing problems, excellent! So you pick what risks each specific deck will accept and we are back to a rock/ paper/ scissors type scenario only far more complciated!

babar3355

Gunmix25

  One could say them for you as well as you've given no precedent beyond what could happen if you get caught with your pants down. This is MTGPQ at some point no matter how hard we try to build strategically ... you're gonna eventually get caught with your pants down. I could make similar examples with various cards in various situations and especially when in regards to objectives. But I'm not going to jump on that carousel.

Well, RR did get nerfed and is still in virtually every deck I run.

My point is that if I am running T2 in an event, relying on Rivers rebuke to control supports, that strategy is no longer viable. Based on one single card. That is what I call meta warping.


But it's fine we just disasagree.  

Kinesia

Hixus was the same for creatures and black and blue played around it forever.
So blue can't use RR to escape? Good. That card is worse for the game than sphinx anyway, but if sphinx is what you are scared of then you _plan_ for it with white/blue gem changers and things, same way you'd deal with Hixus in the old days. And sometimes you'll be unlucky but that's great it's random and it's a game.
You aren't _meant_ to have one deck that can deal with every single thing. (Which is my problem with RR, Blue now doesn't need another colour or have any drawbacks)