The Demiurge Players Should Uncloak

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  • whitecat31
    whitecat31 Posts: 579 Critical Contributor
    edited April 2018

    There are pros and cons for a member of the dev team to show who they are at the "Top level game".  

    Note: IMO "Top level game" is players who consistently score in the top 10 in PVP and/or PVE. SC7 and above.

    Pros.

    The dev team member can demonstrate they actually have a solid grasp on what happens at the "top level game" play. 

    They can interact with the rest of the "top level game" players and give feedback to the rest of the development team to give needed fixes.

    They can see when an event has conditions that are too easy or too hard from the "top level game" play perspective and, if they need an immediate fix.

    They never would have nerfed Old Man Logan, because he was working at intended and was not broken.  Instead they relied on stats, which said, the very first 5 star they released with the best odds of acquiring is being used too much.

    They can better emphathize with top level players with the problems associated with resources and RNG issues.

    They can understand all the coordination and effort it takes to stay to consistently get a top 5 PVP score and a top 10 season score.

    They can better understand the vocabulary that these players use and create better communication channels.

    Cons

    Time suck.  It is a huge investment of time get to the "Top level game" play and to maintain that level, takes serious real life hours spanning hundreds of days. This is even if they do use real world dollars.   For PVP purposes you have to interact with the rest of the "top level game" types of players.  (Chances are they are not paid for this.)

    Everything you do or say in communications with other players is looked at through a different "lens".  You have to be professional at all times, and be very careful how you word things because you represent the company(While not being paid).

    You will get trolled, and have to deal with it professionally.

    You are a target at many different times on the battlefield and you won't know why.  You would ask yourself constantly why did this person hit me while I was shield hopping or climbing?  The list of reasons is long enough as it is for typical players, it would be even longer for a company representative.  If you tried to ask the person why they hit you, there is a chance you would get trolled with responses that might not make sense.  Imagine going up to a fellow dev team members and asking.  "What does Pietro Farms Remembers have to do with anything?" 

    If you do well, people will suspect you of cheating or exploiting.

    It could turn a game that you play for fun, into work and stress.


    I am sure I missed pros and cons on both sides, but if any of the Dev Team wants to play at that level and let people know, I salute you. You are making a sacrifice for the betterment of the game.   

  • ZootSax
    ZootSax Posts: 1,819 Chairperson of the Boards
    whitecat31 said:

    (*snip*)

    Cons

    Time suck.  It is a huge investment of time get to the "Top level game" play and to maintain that level, takes serious real life hours spanning hundreds of days. This is even if they do use real world dollars.   For PVP purposes you have to interact with the rest of the "top level game" types of players.  (Chances are they are not paid for this.)

    Everything you do or say in communications with other players is looked at through a different "lens".  You have to be professional at all times, and be very careful how you word things because you represent the company(While not being paid).

    You will get trolled, and have to deal with it professionally.

    You are a target at many different times on the battlefield and you won't know why.  You would ask yourself constantly why did this person hit me while I was shield hopping or climbing?  The list of reasons is long enough as it is for typical players, it would be even longer for a company representative.  If you tried to ask the person why they hit you, there is a chance you would get trolled with responses that might not make sense.  Imagine going up to a fellow dev team members and asking.  "What does Pietro Farms Remembers have to do with anything?" 

    If you do well, people will suspect you of cheating or exploiting.

    It could turn a game that you play for fun, into work and stress.


    I am sure I missed pros and cons on both sides, but if any of the Dev Team wants to play at that level and let people know, I salute you. You are making a sacrifice for the betterment of the game.   

    Considering that your cons essentially explain why a known Dev in the top tier of play would have a fundamentally different play experience than the average top tier player, why do you think uncloaking for them would be for the betterment of the game?  I'm not trying to start an argument or anything...just genuinely curious, as I generally agreed with the pros & cons you laid out, but ended up with the exact opposite conclusion.

    Personally, I view the devs who play as the Schrödinger's cats of the game...but as a non-top-tier player, I could be missing something huge.
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,967 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited April 2018
    whitecat31 said:

    There are pros and cons for a member of the dev team to show who they are at the "Top level game".  

    The never said "top level", they said "expert players at the company".  Not the same, and definitely open to interpretation.

    Note: "Top level game" is players who consistently score in the top 10 in PVP and/or PVE. SC7 and above.

    In your opinion.  Others may see top level as T5, others, top 50.  Some may only think of SCL9 while other may include being in a top alliance.

    Pros.

    The dev team member can demonstrate they actually have a solid grasp on what happens at the "top level game" play. 

    This doesn't seem like a pro to me.  "Demonstrate" is another word for "prove", and like I said earlier, revealing their handles will prove nothing. People will just use ambiguous information to support the narratives they already had.  You want to know how they can "demonstrate" they understand the top level game.  By communicating their understanding of it.  I don't need to see rosters and play logs to get that.  Saying, "we've heard the complaints about Gambit", and "we understand tapping is a problem" show me way more than "uncloaking" ever would.

    They can interact with the rest of the "top level game" players and give feedback to the rest of the development team to give needed fixes.

    Um, they can (and at times do via these forums and Discord) do that now.  Do you think any top level player would turn down the chance to give direct feedback to a developer about their experience at that level? A developer revealing their screen name does nothing to help or hinder that process.

    They can see when an event has conditions that are too easy or too hard from the "top level game" play perspective and, if they need an immediate fix.

    They can do that through cloaked top level play.  Uncloaking would actually only make their experience much less representative of what it is like for a regular top level player.

    They never would have nerfed Old Man Logan, because he was working at intended and was not broken.  Instead they relied on stats, which said, the very first 5 star they released with the best odds of acquiring is being used too much.

    You don't know that.  They relied on stats then, they rely on stats now.  We don't know how much weight they put into their own players' experiences versus stats versus forum users experience, etc.  And I'm sure it is not an exact science and each issue is different.  I think the reverting of wins-based likely had more to do with forum outrage, while OML was about usage statistics and healthpacks, while vaulting ending was about people grabbing the new carrot faster than anticipated, etc.  You definitely can't say that if top level players identified themselves, OML would not have been nerfed.

    They can better emphasize with top level players with the problems associated with resources and RNG issues.

    I think you meant empathize.  And they can do that now.

    They can understand all the coordination and effort it takes to stay to consistently get a top 5 PVP score and a top 10 season score.

    They can better understand the vocabulary that these players use and create better communication channels.

    The last two points are really about playing in an alliance which they can do cloaked or uncloaked.  I do think you get some additional information playing in alliance (especially a top level one versus not), but the idea that uncloaking will help them better understand the plight of the 1%ers in the game... eh.  I don't agree and think it will create an experience more different from that of the average way above average player.

    Responses to your pros in bold.
  • CharlieCroker
    CharlieCroker Posts: 254 Mover and Shaker
    @daredevil217 I really think @whitecat31(as a top level player by either of your definitions who also has a solid champed 5* roster and is in a top alliance) has a better grasp on what really constitutes "top level" or "expert" than someone who is insistent on staying in the 4* tier for as long as possible and advocates staying there whenever given the chance.

    But to touch on one point in particular, Brigby or the developers stating they understand (or at least acknowledging) issues at best placates players.  Whereas the continual inaction for me speaks a lot louder, especially where the issues have been unresolved for months or even years.  Hell, if they came out and said "Gambit is good but not OP and we have no plans to further balance him" I wouldn't be happy but would prefer that transparency to continued radio silence.

    As per my previous post in this thread, I'm not at all sure uncloaking is a good idea.  But I do think somehow demonstrating they understand the actual ecosystem of the game and openly communicating more with the whole community (which to be fair they have started doing) could be a positive thing for everyone.
  • CharlieCroker
    CharlieCroker Posts: 254 Mover and Shaker
    tiomono said:
    CharlieCroker said:
    @daredevil217 I really think @whitecat31(as a top level player by either of your definitions who also has a solid champed 5* roster and is in a top alliance) has a better grasp on what really constitutes "top level" or "expert" than someone who is insistent on staying in the 4* tier for as long as possible and advocates staying there whenever given the chance.
    Statements like this right here are why they should not have to say who they are.

    You very definitely dismissed daredevils viewpoint merely because he plays the game in a manner he enjoys and not what you would consider to be optimal, top tier, elite, high end, whatever. It is perfectly ok for daredevil to play how he likes and his opinion on the game is no less valid than anyone else because of it.
    Agreed Daredevils opinion on the game is as valid as anybody else's.  But Daredevil isn't (in my view) a top level or expert player so his/her opinion on matters involving said top level expert level play carries less weight than others who are.  

    I certainly haven't dismissed his/her viewpoint or gone through someone else's post and argued against nearly every single position they have taken.

    And again, I'm not advocating uncloaking - but I am someone passionate about MPQ who would like to know more about how decisions are or are not made, and the information that is used when making those decisions.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    CharlieCroker said:
    tiomono said:
    CharlieCroker said:
    @daredevil217 I really think @whitecat31(as a top level player by either of your definitions who also has a solid champed 5* roster and is in a top alliance) has a better grasp on what really constitutes "top level" or "expert" than someone who is insistent on staying in the 4* tier for as long as possible and advocates staying there whenever given the chance.
    Statements like this right here are why they should not have to say who they are.

    You very definitely dismissed daredevils viewpoint merely because he plays the game in a manner he enjoys and not what you would consider to be optimal, top tier, elite, high end, whatever. It is perfectly ok for daredevil to play how he likes and his opinion on the game is no less valid than anyone else because of it.
    Agreed Daredevils opinion on the game is as valid as anybody else's.  But Daredevil isn't (in my view) a top level or expert player so his/her opinion on matters involving said top level expert level play carries less weight than others who are.  

    I certainly haven't dismissed his/her viewpoint or gone through someone else's post and argued against nearly every single position they have taken.

    And again, I'm not advocating uncloaking - but I am someone passionate about MPQ who would like to know more about how decisions are or are not made, and the information that is used when making those decisions.
    Ok but this discussion is about wether or not the devs in game should be out in the open.

    Expert does not mean top 5% in my view. Apparently in your view it does. And that is the reason why in my opinion the devs should not be more visible in game.

    If they are more visible and made choices closer to what daredevil is doing they will be dismissed as not knowing how to play their own game by high end people. If they are in the tippy top 5% alot of people will likely claim they are cheating to be there.
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,967 Chairperson of the Boards
    CharlieCroker said:
    @daredevil217 I really think @whitecat31(as a top level player by either of your definitions who also has a solid champed 5* roster and is in a top alliance) has a better grasp on what really constitutes "top level" or "expert" than someone who is insistent on staying in the 4* tier for as long as possible and advocates staying there whenever given the chance.
    I never claimed to know anything about being a top player, an expert player, or really said anything about myself or my play style in this thread as it would kind of be off topic if we’re being honest.

    The reason why you know I’m not a top player is because I readily admit as much in threads where it IS on-topic to do so.  When I give advice or speak to an issue I want to be sure people know where I’m coming from.  So I guess... I agree with you I don’t know as much about the top tier experience?  But also don’t get why that’s relevant.

    I countered what I felt were some weak advantages to developers chooosing to out themselves. If you or whitecat want to have a dialogue around my points then then that’s cool. If not that’s fine too, but talking about my play style actually deters from the topic, the points I’ve made, and makes it about me personally, and less about the topic at hand. 

    TLDR: I agree I’m not a top tier player, obviously don’t know as much about that experience as some one who is, and has said as much in several threads.  Can we get back to the actual points I and others have made please?
  • purplemur
    purplemur Posts: 454 Mover and Shaker
    tiomono said:
    purplemur said: I don't think that any employees that do play are using company resources to help them play competitively though. Imagine THAT outrage, it would be like 5 thousamabillitimes worse than Tapping, because it would be a really, really, really tinykitty thing to do. The devs would have to be the worst type of human beings, this side of a super skrull with amnesia to throttle rewards and use insider cheats to then gain said prizes.I doubt that they are. It would be really bad if they did and they should stop if they are and again I hope that they aren't.
    Even in your post you say they could be cheating, but you doubt they are, but if they are they should stop. It's this kind of statement with no proof of any kind behind it that lead people to blind rage.

    It's a whole process of thinking that the players know better or could do better than the devs. If that's true get out there and make your own flawless perfect amazing game that will change the whole world and everyone will love and laud as the most amazing achievement ever grasped by a human.

    That last paragraph isn't really directed at you but just tossed out there as my personal rant defending a product I enjoy even though it has some flaws.
    In my post I was trying to be too cheeky. I don't actually think the devs are superskrulls that actually think they are devs. I actually have sympathy for that. I don't think the devs cheat at their own game. It's absurd. If you could give yourself an advantage in house, what would be the point of struggling for placement?(besides every expert player knows you have to tap to get placement) 
    I was trying to demonstrate that it isn't "blind rage". There are reasons why a person would be righteously pissed off and it could come out perceived as jerky venting. That if such and such were true, people would react thusly.  It wasn't an accusation, I was not intending to be incendiary or inflammatory. If my sassback causes anyone to have rage it should be English composition teachers from my past.
    There are several examples of the playerbase making catches that the devteam were unaware of. Sometimes actually they do know better. Movie critics couldn't write a script but can tell you that the dialogue from EPII: Attack of the Clones is bad. Like chasing Saakaar Argh-rena tokens. That was bad. Why is me giving my customer feedback marginalized as some wholly irrational rage beast that can't help but spew invective against the devs? When people react negatively on the forums they usually explain themselves and are pretty hilarious about it. Some of the people on here have comedy wit, likewise there be maths and facts and stuffs. Smart people have opposing views and they engage in friendly dialogue with each other in a humorous/insightful/entertaining way. That's how I view the forum; and I think the more the devs interacted with their customers the more the game would be enriched for both sides. 
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    purplemur said:
    tiomono said:
    purplemur said: I don't think that any employees that do play are using company resources to help them play competitively though. Imagine THAT outrage, it would be like 5 thousamabillitimes worse than Tapping, because it would be a really, really, really tinykitty thing to do. The devs would have to be the worst type of human beings, this side of a super skrull with amnesia to throttle rewards and use insider cheats to then gain said prizes.I doubt that they are. It would be really bad if they did and they should stop if they are and again I hope that they aren't.
    Even in your post you say they could be cheating, but you doubt they are, but if they are they should stop. It's this kind of statement with no proof of any kind behind it that lead people to blind rage.

    It's a whole process of thinking that the players know better or could do better than the devs. If that's true get out there and make your own flawless perfect amazing game that will change the whole world and everyone will love and laud as the most amazing achievement ever grasped by a human.

    That last paragraph isn't really directed at you but just tossed out there as my personal rant defending a product I enjoy even though it has some flaws.
    In my post I was trying to be too cheeky. I don't actually think the devs are superskrulls that actually think they are devs. I actually have sympathy for that. I don't think the devs cheat at their own game. It's absurd. If you could give yourself an advantage in house, what would be the point of struggling for placement?(besides every expert player knows you have to tap to get placement) 
    I was trying to demonstrate that it isn't "blind rage". There are reasons why a person would be righteously pissed off and it could come out perceived as jerky venting. That if such and such were true, people would react thusly.  It wasn't an accusation, I was not intending to be incendiary or inflammatory. If my sassback causes anyone to have rage it should be English composition teachers from my past.
    There are several examples of the playerbase making catches that the devteam were unaware of. Sometimes actually they do know better. Movie critics couldn't write a script but can tell you that the dialogue from EPII: Attack of the Clones is bad. Like chasing Saakaar Argh-rena tokens. That was bad. Why is me giving my customer feedback marginalized as some wholly irrational rage beast that can't help but spew invective against the devs? When people react negatively on the forums they usually explain themselves and are pretty hilarious about it. Some of the people on here have comedy wit, likewise there be maths and facts and stuffs. Smart people have opposing views and they engage in friendly dialogue with each other in a humorous/insightful/entertaining way. That's how I view the forum; and I think the more the devs interacted with their customers the more the game would be enriched for both sides. 
    And we see how that turned out for star wars. People griped and called it trash so much that the creator decided to walk away and now the franchise is arguably worse.

    The funny thing is we both agree more interaction is good. I just do not feel that they need to share their in game names to be deemed worthy of our respect. People love this game, and for some reason players or fans whatever you want to call them are willing to trash the people that gave them some entertainment. It is not constructive.

    Yes some people are funny some are capable of rational discussion. But it feels like for every one of those there is also someone not rational. So why give more fuel to the people that will conspiracy theory everything while trash talking the game and devs?

    Forum rules dictate that we respect each other and the mods back that up if we get out of hand. But nothing seems to be done when some players disrespect the devs.

    More communication is awesome. Having people rummage through devs rosters looking for imagined cheating is not good for communication that' why I take the stance on this that I have.
  • whitecat31
    whitecat31 Posts: 579 Critical Contributor
    ZootSax said:
    Considering that your cons essentially explain why a known Dev in the top tier of play would have a fundamentally different play experience than the average top tier player, why do you think uncloaking for them would be for the betterment of the game?  I'm not trying to start an argument or anything...just genuinely curious, as I generally agreed with the pros & cons you laid out, but ended up with the exact opposite conclusion.

    Personally, I view the devs who play as the Schrödinger's cats of the game...but as a non-top-tier player, I could be missing something huge.
    Too sum it up uncloaking means more open communication and transfer of information from the top level player base to the dev team. I think more communication is better.
  • whitecat31
    whitecat31 Posts: 579 Critical Contributor
    As for communication. To be a consistent top player you basically have to install LINE.  You also might spend half your playtime in giant chat rooms doing nothing but waiting for certain words to be said. I should have tossed that in as a pro and a con.  In any case, I have MPQ to play (stares at LINE) and falls asleep. 
  • TheDobot
    TheDobot Posts: 61 Match Maker
    Lol, all we would find out if the revealed themselves is that they are actually the tappers and their job is to tap people out of rewards so we have to spend more:). 
  • purplemur
    purplemur Posts: 454 Mover and Shaker
    And we see how that turned out for star wars. People griped and called it trash so much that the creator decided to walk away and now the franchise is arguably worse
    Wait now that is taking it too far. Are you seriously arguing that Jarjar & "I hate sand it gets everywhere, not like you"& racist trade federation is BETTER than Rogue One? blink.blink.blink. I don't even. wha...HOW? how is it worse? He sold for the massive amount of money not because his feelings were hurt. Lucas cares not about the fanbois. Star Wars Universe is doing amazing, it sets and breaks it's own records It's the definition of successful franchise.

    For this seemingly popular, ongoing notion that on the forum there are lone voices in the wilderness that speak the words of truth and enlightenment and everything else is just nasty thoughtless takedowns is false. Its demeaning to paint everything you don't like or disagree with as nasty or just mean, only negative, thoughtless, etc.
    I'm going to throwback the old throwback of: If you find it so negative why come on the forum and post?

    Go pick 10 random threads and count the negative posts vs the positive posts. PROVE that the forum is so negative and horrible. otherwise get off the high horse and stop smearing it. Go read how many people poured out questions in the Demiwill Qthread (the biggest problem there is that people explained themselves too much, the opposite of blind negativity/rage). How the majority were so appreciative of him coming on to speak directly. How when he gave answers that people didn't like they accepted and moved on. There are no tantrums on there. 
    And can we quit acting like the game is sacrosanct? Like every update is a smile from the gods. The video game world is a harsh place to compete and thrive. They have and they do. The devs are not hiding because of the mean old forum gave them a hard time about Gambit. Bandai isn't embarrassed with loading screen sprites humping the shield. The Boston gang don't care that we think 3lektra is lazybones. Players do care and they come on here to express that, usually in a good way. Let's not demean that common experience by treating it like 4chan.

    A personal aside I don't want anyone to think that was directed personally. Tio; I appreciate your sensible and friendly posts on the forum. You are one of the ones that I take seriously, I just used your quote cuz star wars, DD certainly counts as an expert player, Broll +as usual,hound making good points,Colog- thank you for a good thread/your guide got me through some weird early transitions TY. I guess that really is the point: there are so many excellent people that create, guide, contribute I strongly oppose depicting their collective works as negative. The game is cool, The forum is rad.
  • Ducky
    Ducky Posts: 2,255 Community Moderator
    ***Mods and administrators remove a lot of the overt negativity from the forums to try and keep the atmosphere friendly for all forum-goers. I will remind you all to keep this thread on topic of the original post created by @Colognoisseur. If people continue to derail this thread, I will start handing out warnings as it is against the rules. If you feel inclined to discuss other topics that aren't related to the OP and don't already have existing threads, feel free to create a new thread for discussion.

    Thanks!***
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    purplemur said:
    And we see how that turned out for star wars. People griped and called it trash so much that the creator decided to walk away and now the franchise is arguably worse
    Wait now that is taking it too far. Are you seriously arguing that Jarjar & "I hate sand it gets everywhere, not like you"& racist trade federation is BETTER than Rogue One? blink.blink.blink. I don't even. wha...HOW? how is it worse? He sold for the massive amount of money not because his feelings were hurt. Lucas cares not about the fanbois. Star Wars Universe is doing amazing, it sets and breaks it's own records It's the definition of successful franchise.

    For this seemingly popular, ongoing notion that on the forum there are lone voices in the wilderness that speak the words of truth and enlightenment and everything else is just nasty thoughtless takedowns is false. Its demeaning to paint everything you don't like or disagree with as nasty or just mean, only negative, thoughtless, etc.
    I'm going to throwback the old throwback of: If you find it so negative why come on the forum and post?

    Go pick 10 random threads and count the negative posts vs the positive posts. PROVE that the forum is so negative and horrible. otherwise get off the high horse and stop smearing it. Go read how many people poured out questions in the Demiwill Qthread (the biggest problem there is that people explained themselves too much, the opposite of blind negativity/rage). How the majority were so appreciative of him coming on to speak directly. How when he gave answers that people didn't like they accepted and moved on. There are no tantrums on there. 
    And can we quit acting like the game is sacrosanct? Like every update is a smile from the gods. The video game world is a harsh place to compete and thrive. They have and they do. The devs are not hiding because of the mean old forum gave them a hard time about Gambit. Bandai isn't embarrassed with loading screen sprites humping the shield. The Boston gang don't care that we think 3lektra is lazybones. Players do care and they come on here to express that, usually in a good way. Let's not demean that common experience by treating it like 4chan.

    A personal aside I don't want anyone to think that was directed personally. Tio; I appreciate your sensible and friendly posts on the forum. You are one of the ones that I take seriously, I just used your quote cuz star wars, DD certainly counts as an expert player, Broll +as usual,hound making good points,Colog- thank you for a good thread/your guide got me through some weird early transitions TY. I guess that really is the point: there are so many excellent people that create, guide, contribute I strongly oppose depicting their collective works as negative. The game is cool, The forum is rad.
    Thanks. I try to take everyone seriously. Sometimes my thinking is whackado and a sensible response brings me around.

    This doesn't need to turn into a state of the forums discussion though so sorry for running off in that direction.

    Back on topic: I just do not see how us knowing devs in game names would lead to better communication. Knowing who they are in game does not make them comment on the state of the game or reasonings behind decisions made. It just seems like it would give us more to speculate on without actual meaningful information.

    The recent interactions with will on the forums have proven that we are usually happy when they just tell us what is going on and a bit of insight into why it's going on. And we do not know what demiwill's roster looks like as far as I know or if he even plays. And we do not need to know to be happy with the info he is sharing with us.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,501 Chairperson of the Boards
    tiomono said:

    Back on topic: I just do not see how us knowing devs in game names would lead to better communication. Knowing who they are in game does not make them comment on the state of the game or reasonings behind decisions made. It just seems like it would give us more to speculate on without actual meaningful information.


    knowing names gives instant context to past and previous decisions, and will serve to guide future action and roster plans.  Many players have extremely long memories and will be able place past game actions into the context of developer stated designs.  The longer the profile/history, the easier it becomes to spot changes or deviations.

    Its pretty trivial actually to assign playstyle "traits" to past documented behaviors.  I'm pretty sure if we knew the accounts of the top 5 employees,  we could build a very accurate profile of how they play and how they thought a power should work.  (especially if we could see order of actions).  In turn that knowledge will give you a pretty good indication of whether Airborne mechanics are coming to 5* tier.  

    You might think that argues against revealing names,  but the truth is transparency is also the best disinfectant. 

    Really its just the idea that if the developers are transparent in how they actually play the game,  Player can feel comfortable in following those suggestions.

    I.e. I certainly would consider using star lord more often if I saw that anthony used him more than once a season.  LOL

    Plus if we saw evidence that a dev was tapping,  then we would settle the question of whether tapping is a dev approved tactic.

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