The Demiurge Players Should Uncloak

Michaelcles

broll said:

broll said:

On the other hand for some players I could see their new goal in life becoming to attack these players mercilessly in PvP for any host of reasons.  

Michaelcles said:

So the devs, knowing the ins and outs of the game, are playing against us?

Doesn’t seem fair.

How much have they had to spend to stay competitive?

Players are forbidden to cheat, but what about the devs?

Or attacking them out of game... close enough...

I am not attacking them personally, I am complaining about unfairness.

For software upgrades, I think of the process as

development -> testing -> production

As players we see production.  There is a unfair advantage to knowing the first two legs.  Devs have probably tested a character/enhancement and know how to use it well before players.

That is unfair.

Michaelcles

Stated differently, they are being paid to play the game.

Every win is tainted by insider knowledge, and comes at the expense of a player.

This is similar to insider trading on the stock market, which is banned by the SEC.

Blindman13

Michaelcles said:

Stated differently, they are being paid to play the game.

Every win is tainted by insider knowledge, and comes at the expense of a player.

This is similar to insider trading on the stock market, which is banned by the SEC.

This rings of hyperbole. It's not like we are competing for cash prizes and the Devs are abusing the system to take all the best prizes.  At most, there's a small handful of Devs who play. I assume they very rarely (if ever) take top placement in any event. 
They are not trying to steal anyone's precious CP. They are participating to understand our point of view.

Phumade

Blindman13 said:

Michaelcles said:

Stated differently, they are being paid to play the game.

Every win is tainted by insider knowledge, and comes at the expense of a player.

This is similar to insider trading on the stock market, which is banned by the SEC.

This rings of hyperbole. It's not like we are competing for cash prizes and the Devs are abusing the system to take all the best prizes.  At most, there's a small handful of Devs who play. I assume they very rarely (if ever) take top placement in any event. 
They are not trying to steal anyone's precious CP. They are participating to understand our point of view.

But people have paid big money for their chars etc...  I just feel that if the gambling industry feels its important to self identify its players and the rules that they gamble under,  then perhaps that might actually be a good precedent for a game development company.


I agree with you the devs aren't trying to steal placement and prizes from players and that there is real value in having employees play the actual high level game..  But like the gaambling industry,  why even have a whiff of impropriety?

1.  Self identify and explain the rules they follow.

JHawkInc

Do casino shills in the gambling industry actually design and develop casino games, directly manipulating how the games work? Because I'm pretty sure they don't, and that this makes it an apples and oranges comparison to MPQ.

CharlieCroker

The question has been asked and to date there has been no official response but lots of speculation.  They might have 'expert' players who play in the live environment with everyone else (with or without artificially boosted rosters) but then again they may just be playing with big rosters in a sandbox enviroment.

At this stage we simply don't know, so lets save the pitchforks and SEC enquiries for when (and if) they choose to answer us.

scottee

The amount of advantage gained by knowing future characters or events is minuscule. The only significant unfair advantage would be getting free covers/resources, and I believe they've said in the past that they don't do that.

Yes, knowing what level the devs are at would give their statements more credibility. But that's only necessary because forum posters assume they have no credibility. The forum could simply not freak out at every decision and it would have the same effect.

Phumade

JHawkInc said:

Do casino shills in the gambling industry actually design and develop casino games, directly manipulating how the games work? Because I'm pretty sure they don't, and that this makes it an apples and oranges comparison to MPQ.

In terms of actual live players?  Yes.   They are called shills and casinos are required to tell patrons when they are being used and the rules they gamble b.  (think AI provided auto players)

Specifically in ring table games.  Shills ensure sufficient players so it isn't players just checking around.

And to be clear,  casino provides these "employees" to enhance and ensure consistent pace of play.  not to try and actually win money.

I presume that is similar to why the devs might ask employees to play the game.  To gain insight and an understanding of the high level game.  If thats the reason why,  then avoid impropriety and just self announce.

Ducky

Maybe they play the game because they actually enjoy it? Just a thought.

Phumade

Ducky said:

Maybe they play the game because they actually enjoy it? Just a thought.

Fair enough,  and doesn't your signature specifically state when your in mod voice vs personal voice?

I don't think people are asking to  much to list players as acting as devs or personal accounts.

and in each situation state if personal means (I paid for EVERY cent) or personal but I get a covers and stipend from a test budget?

Honestly,  If you feel its appropriate to distinguish your personal opinion vs your mod opinion,  Then its probably not an unreasonable ask about whether its a personal or dev account.  

HoundofShadow

I don't see the point of them revealing their IGN. why do they have to prove to you their credibility? 

Chances are they are going to be interrogated like a criminal. And there would definitely be someone waiting to catch their mistake. Next, we would have stalker(s) stalking their rosters every day. 

Even if they could spin up a character as easily as they want, how does that affect your life? They are the developers and I don't see any problem with them doing so if it's for testing purpose. 

I think this thread was started because Will? mentioned that they have expert players and you can see some of the sarcastic replies in that thread. 

JHawkInc

Phumade said:

JHawkInc said:

Do casino shills in the gambling industry actually design and develop casino games, directly manipulating how the games work? Because I'm pretty sure they don't, and that this makes it an apples and oranges comparison to MPQ.

In terms of actual live players?  Yes.   They are called shills and casinos are required to tell patrons when they are being used and the rules they gamble b.  (think AI provided auto players)

Specifically in ring table games.  Shills ensure sufficient players so it isn't players just checking around.

And to be clear,  casino provides these "employees" to enhance and ensure consistent pace of play.  not to try and actually win money.

I presume that is similar to why the devs might ask employees to play the game.  To gain insight and an understanding of the high level game.  If thats the reason why,  then avoid impropriety and just self announce.

You didn't answer my question. Or you did, but you said "Yes", and then gave a bunch of reasons why the answer is actually "No".

Shills do not develop or design the games. You yourself called them the equivalent of AI. They facilitate, nothing more. They're more comparable to PVP seed teams than they are to Devs playing the game themselves. At no point is a Shill going to say "We've spent some time with the game, and think the numbers support adding another suit to the deck of cards." It's apples and oranges, and nothing about shills really seems applicable to the Devs of MPQ.

Phumade

JHawkInc said:

You didn't answer my question. Or you did, but you said "Yes", and then gave a bunch of reasons why the answer is actually "No".

Shills do not develop or design the games. You yourself called them the equivalent of AI. They facilitate, nothing more. They're more comparable to PVP seed teams than they are to Devs playing the game themselves. At no point is a Shill going to say "We've spent some time with the game, and think the numbers support adding another suit to the deck of cards." It's apples and oranges, and nothing about shills really seems applicable to the Devs of MPQ.

Who places shills and various automation things in the game?

Developers/pit boses do.

The analogy I'm making is that that when the owner/regulator of the game participates.  They generally self disclose their presence and they tell you the rules they intend to operate under.


Here The devs are clearly playing in the game (Whether by personal choice or job dictate)  Unlike the gaming example.  D3 choses to neither acknowledge or explain the rule/purpose of those players.

I generally find that in every online community I've participated in.  People who are associated with the game in a professional context, always self identify themselves.  Do you have different interactions?

I'm pretty sure when Bungie developers play halo,  they do it on an official dev account.  Hard to imagine any game devs who don't self identify unless they are embarassed/concened/whatever about their actions..

tfcrazy1980

Ducky said:

Maybe they play the game because they actually enjoy it? Just a thought.

Totally has nothing to do with the perks right? None at all? Dont some other "people" get "perks" also?

tfcrazy1980

My point being, the question is how far would said people have gotten had they had to follow the same route that the majority has? Are they live in the game? Are they competing in events or in alliances? How is that fair to the rest who pour time, effort and real money in this game when theres some who can skate by with resources others dont have? Does that sound fair at all? All people are asking for is transparency which to this day, no one will provide? Sounds rigged to me.

justsing

Some of the comments in this thread show exactly why the devs shouldn't have to reveal their IGNs.

professorplum9

C'mon guys we're playing a superhero game. We know how this works. You have to keep your identity secret to protect the people you care about

Warbringa

I don't think the developers should have to identify themselves through their accounts/rosters unless they choose to do so.  I think there are far more reasons against forcing them to do so than benefits as outlined in posts above.  If a dev chooses to do so that is ok but I don't see why there should be a mandate that they have to.  

That being said, I would hope that the devs would have separate accounts for play testing vs. their own personal account which they have to build just like anyone else.  

The rockett

To bring this convo back around, here is where I think Colog was going with it.  

Galatus first run:
There was no way this event was tested in the highest rounds.  No “expert player” that is in the Dev staff could have played this and tested this fully. It was 2 or 3 moves and you were dead unless you got lucky with Hulk bombing. 

Boss Rush:
This is the first time I remember Beta Testers being used as a term for us players.  Anybody that had a high level roster knows how much of a dumpster fire this was.  Demi/D3 even admitted that they did not test this with a higher level roster on the PW3 Pod cast.  So no “expert player” had a roster high enough to know how bad this was going to be with the crazy scaling. 

The question comes back to is what level are they testing this with their “expert players” at?  
Is it a 5* player?  
What levels?  450?  475?  500?  525?  500?  
Are they even 5* players?
Are they only testing in a non live environment?   Are they active within MPQ now?  
What level of play?  
PVE or PVP or Hybrid?  

This also goes back to one of the questions in the March questions for Will thread.  
Would you ever use current MPQ players to vet/test/get input/listen with some of these changes before they go live?  Since there is a lot of us that are fully engrained into this game on many levels, it feels like our input could/would be helpful with whomever their “expert players” are.  

grunth13

Honestly, I doubt any devs play this game in a non work related situation.  I know I wouldn't want to do the same thing I do for work on my free time.  With that said, I think this conversation has gone completely off tangent from what Colog wanted to accomplish.  @Colognoisseur you might want to rephrase your original statement to get this thread back on track to your original message.