Hualti, Radiant Champion and the clueless designers from Oktagon

FindingHeart8

Mainloop25 said:

Well i think that the only reason Omniscience was never changed was because of its rarity. If it were even a mythic, the outcry would be near pre-nerf Baral levels.

I do agree with that.  There was an overall unity in believing Omniscience should be changed.

GrizzoMtGPQ

Thanks to a suggestion from @gogol666 it also is demonstrable with the non-bugged Hangarback Walker. HW does not need to die, you get thopters on every match, which triggers Path of Discovery, ad inifinitum.

madwren

FindingHeart8 said:

Mainloop25 said:

andrewvanmarle said:

Mainloop25 said:

Sirchombli said:

 Why don't we just enjoy smashing each other's faces with powerful stuff instead of complaining about it constantly. Powerful stuff is fun. 

There's a balance. Can't tip the scale too far one way or the other. Smashing faces is fun sure, but it's the opposite amount of fun to get your face smashed when that stuff goes unchecked.

It's a choice actually either you both fight with spiked basball bats or you both fight with fluffy down pillows.

I like spikes and i'll accept the fight where i lose and lose hard. A little blood doesn't hurt anyone 

It's not about balance in the sense that for instance cycling skews the balance heavily in favor of the player because the ai doesnt know how to use that effect.


@ grizzo: zendikars roil is broken. that is a separate issue from huatli, we shouldnt conflate these to topics.

There aren't just two ways to win, otherwise eveyone would just play Koth and Samut every game. Trust me I love my Omni loop decks  but it doesn't mean the fact that I can make them is good for the game. And let's not bring cycling into it, there have been novels written about what's wrong with cycling at this point! 

Before we can determine indisputably what cards are "good" or "bad" for the game as is, I think the mtgpq community has to be able to collectively agree on what the ideal for mtgpq is.  The fact that there is a divide is probably a reason behind none of these cards actually being changed.

AI-piloted near-infinite loops seem to be the only thing people mostly agree on.

People do like their easy buttons, though.

FindingHeart8

madwren said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Mainloop25 said:

andrewvanmarle said:

Mainloop25 said:

Sirchombli said:

 Why don't we just enjoy smashing each other's faces with powerful stuff instead of complaining about it constantly. Powerful stuff is fun. 

There's a balance. Can't tip the scale too far one way or the other. Smashing faces is fun sure, but it's the opposite amount of fun to get your face smashed when that stuff goes unchecked.

It's a choice actually either you both fight with spiked basball bats or you both fight with fluffy down pillows.

I like spikes and i'll accept the fight where i lose and lose hard. A little blood doesn't hurt anyone 

It's not about balance in the sense that for instance cycling skews the balance heavily in favor of the player because the ai doesnt know how to use that effect.


@ grizzo: zendikars roil is broken. that is a separate issue from huatli, we shouldnt conflate these to topics.

There aren't just two ways to win, otherwise eveyone would just play Koth and Samut every game. Trust me I love my Omni loop decks  but it doesn't mean the fact that I can make them is good for the game. And let's not bring cycling into it, there have been novels written about what's wrong with cycling at this point! 

Before we can determine indisputably what cards are "good" or "bad" for the game as is, I think the mtgpq community has to be able to collectively agree on what the ideal for mtgpq is.  The fact that there is a divide is probably a reason behind none of these cards actually being changed.

AI-piloted near-infinite loops seem to be the only thing people mostly agree on.

People do like their easy buttons, though.

That sounds about right from what I've heard from other players as well.

I can see the benefit of easy buttons when there were multiple events happening at the same time.  With the recent drought of new game activity though I've been seeking more challenging matches to lengthen the time of the few battles I now play per day.  I wonder how many other players do the same.

Gunmix25

GrizzoMtGPQ said:

Thanks to a suggestion from @gogol666 it also is demonstrable with the non-bugged Hangarback Walker. HW does not need to die, you get thopters on every match, which triggers Path of Discovery, ad inifinitum.

I used tendershoot and hangerback with path of discovery too. Hangerback had a few time when the ETB brought in extra thopters from gem matches via PoD, but most PoD ETB coversions were duds. Unlike roil that pumps more tokens at once to pretty much ensure gem matches. I have actually had better luck with Tendershoot to generate the effect you were looking for.

  That said Your loyalty take is pretty much the result I got. Still don't think it is game breaking, because even with that massive flow of loyalty flying in you're still fending off removal, bounce, exile and disable. Disable isn't too bad of a thing since it still lets H2 use her 3rd effectively. But the others will ixnay the 3rd. It's happened many times to me. But on that same note. If you can cast out creatures fast enough before you lose, H2 is the Comeback queen. Thanks to her third. 

Mainloop25

@Gunmix25 it's because thopters can change gems to any color, being colorless. Cards that can create tokens of a specific color are the main culprits.

DumasAG

Mainloop25 said:

Well i think that the only reason Omniscience was never changed was because of its rarity. If it were even a mythic, the outcry would be near pre-nerf Baral levels.

pre-nerf baral... the mere thought still makes my eye twitch...

andrewvanmarle

I tried something similar with spy network and the colorless tokens don't get nearly as many matches. So not broken imo. 

I had a test with month to see what happen with those tokens, that doesn't loop at all. 

So the culprit still seems to be Roil. 

As far as huatli's second power: I'd rather use overcome. 

And the third power is fragile, it's dependent on having 3 creatures to be good, the first power is vulnerable to support destruction and getting matched away by your own gem converters, AND you trade a good third power for a first that does nothing but feed the second and third.
I'm still not on board with the opinion that it is broken. 

Huatli is on par with bolas, jace2, Kimora, samut, koth and tezz2.

Edit: and I still think the title should be edited, it's disrespectful and the devs don't deserve that. 

morgue427

i saw that was her biggest problem no creatures and she feels like koth with a blue white board lol

Gunmix25

Mainloop25 said:

@Gunmix25 it's because thopters can change gems to any color, being colorless. Cards that can create tokens of a specific color are the main culprits.

Yeah, that is what I discovered. I Should have been more clear.

Gunmix25

andrewvanmarle said:

I tried something similar with spy network and the colorless tokens don't get nearly as many matches. So not broken imo. 

I had a test with month to see what happen with those tokens, that doesn't loop at all. 

So the culprit still seems to be Roil. 

As far as huatli's second power: I'd rather use overcome. 

And the third power is fragile, it's dependent on having 3 creatures to be good, the first power is vulnerable to support destruction and getting matched away by your own gem converters, AND you trade a good third power for a first that does nothing but feed the second and third.
I'm still not on board with the opinion that it is broken. 

Huatli is on par with bolas, jace2, Kimora, samut, koth and tezz2.

Edit: and I still think the title should be edited, it's disrespectful and the devs don't deserve that. 

Spot on. This is the same result that I found. She is very reliant on creatures. Without them she begins to struggle.  

H2 + Thopter network + Path of Discovery = not broken.
H2 + Tendershoot + Path of Discovery = not broken
H2 + Hangerback + Path of Discovery = not broken
H2 + Sandwurm Convergeance + Path of Discovery = not broken

All the above in any combination with Anoited Procession also is not broken. 

 H2 + Zendikar's Roil + anoited procession + Path of Discovery = broken ... is well... not H2's fault. Zendikar's Roil alongside Path of Discovery is OP with any PW connected to green. Play that two card combo with Kiora and she can easily hit her third... a 32/32 defender... every turn. Is that Kiora's fault? Not even in the slightest, much like H2 she benefits very well from a bugged card. Heck, Nissa 2 is the same way... add decoction module and in that next turn she fires her 3rd for an insane amount of damage. Not Nissa's fault either. 

Anyways, H2 is a great PW and personally see her 3rd as a gimmick. A gimmick that allows her to get back in the game or to further increase the power and toughness of creatures already in play. 

morgue427

pretty much the only combo is zendikars roil + path of discovery, adding in wild growth walker when it triggers just makes it worse and heals you but still a hard combo to set up reliably i have seen, but easier to do on kiora honestly, then path even swaps to blue when you trigger her last ability.